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Thread: Rolling in combat, any benefits?
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shootingiron
Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:10 pm
#1
When I'm making a manouver, I roll until the direction I want to go is above me and then pull up, something like what you would do in an atmopheric flight sim.In JTLdo the mechanics of the game let rollingincrease your turn rate?
Also, I seem to remember reading someplace in the official lit thatrollingwhen you are under fire by a missle helps you avoid it. Can anyone confirm?
Coran_Sienar
Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:19 pm
#3
Rolling won't help to break missile lock. I've gone into hyperspace to see the missile obtain impossible speeds and chase down my ship. The only effective defense against missiles are countermeasures. Rolling doesn't have any effect on turn rate. Maximum turn rates are governed only by your engine.
Rolling will help you get all of your guns on the B-Wing and Firespray on target since the guns are off axis from your reticle.
Ducimus
Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:49 pm
#4
Rolling DOES help, but in subtle ways.
Typically your Pitch rate is greater than your Yaw rate. In atmospheric flight terms, By rolling and putting your lift vector on your target or where you want to go, by pulling back on the stick, your using your Pitch. Just moving the stick left or right is yaw.
Personnaly i always turn by rolling and using my pitch. However, in a PvP scenario you want vary what you do. Having a predictable lateral roll before turning isnt a healthy thing. Remember, you don't have G forces to deal with so you can acutally turn by pitching straight down (IE slamming the stick all the way forward and go into a "negative G" dive)
Rolling also helps when your in pursuit of a target; it is the most often accurate way to change the direction of your line of fire when your target jinks one way or another. Quite often im acutalying doing a combination of a roll combined with either ya aw adjustment, pitch adjustment or all three at once.
EDIT:
as for missle locks, ive found that just dropping chaff and doing a hard turn or just dropping chaff and continuing on my merry way seems to work. Alot depends on the effectiveness of the countermeasure your using. Standard chaff isn't so great.
Typically your Pitch rate is greater than your Yaw rate. In atmospheric flight terms, By rolling and putting your lift vector on your target or where you want to go, by pulling back on the stick, your using your Pitch. Just moving the stick left or right is yaw.
Personnaly i always turn by rolling and using my pitch. However, in a PvP scenario you want vary what you do. Having a predictable lateral roll before turning isnt a healthy thing. Remember, you don't have G forces to deal with so you can acutally turn by pitching straight down (IE slamming the stick all the way forward and go into a "negative G" dive)
Rolling also helps when your in pursuit of a target; it is the most often accurate way to change the direction of your line of fire when your target jinks one way or another. Quite often im acutalying doing a combination of a roll combined with either ya aw adjustment, pitch adjustment or all three at once.
EDIT:
as for missle locks, ive found that just dropping chaff and doing a hard turn or just dropping chaff and continuing on my merry way seems to work. Alot depends on the effectiveness of the countermeasure your using. Standard chaff isn't so great.
Message Edited by Ducimus on 12-28-2004 07:52 PM
Amuro0079
Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:24 pm
#5
Don't know if anyone here has everplayed the Troopers 2004Star Warsmod for UT 2004. In that game, you move your stick leftor right to roll, and use the rudder pedals to yaw or twist the stick if you don't have pedals, just like atmospheric flight sims.
KaylBreinhar
Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:29 pm
#6
As Ducimus implied, rolling STACKS on top of your yaw rate. I haven't noticed much difference in level flight, but when you're turning up or down at an angle and rolling at the same time, you get the angle on a target quicker.
I've only noticed its value in PvP against other players using the pre-nerf engine who are NOT rolling.
I've only noticed its value in PvP against other players using the pre-nerf engine who are NOT rolling.
Coran_Sienar
Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:41 am
#7
You're assuming that someone can't pull back diagonally on the stick.
The shortest distance between two points (i.e., center of your reticle and the target) is a straight line. Rolling andpitching is functionally equivalent (but graphically inferior because you'll be inscribing a curve)to simply yawing and pitching (which will inscribe a direct, diagonal line--unless you WAIT until your roll is complete and then pitch up, but that's still slower.)
Now, take a good hard look at your PYR acceleration values dictated by your chassis and tell me with a straight face that rolling is going to get you on target faster. Usually, the roll acceleration rate is the lowest of the three for all of the player ships.
Message Edited by Coran_Sienar on 12-29-2004 08:51 AM
S-1-l2-H-C
Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:06 am
#8
roll does not effect the direction your ship is moving, so directly it can never help you manuvre on target. however, the quickest way to turn is to combine pitch and yaw, pulling back and to the side or pushing forward and to the side as far as you can.
a^2 + b^2 = c^2
with a being your yaw rate and b being your pitch rate, c is the rate at which you can turn by using both your pitch and yaw thrusters at the same time.
a^2 + b^2 = c^2
with a being your yaw rate and b being your pitch rate, c is the rate at which you can turn by using both your pitch and yaw thrusters at the same time.
Trienco
Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:15 pm
#9
simple: the way rotating is done you pitch according to axis AND yaw according to axis. nothing seems to normalize that so pitching AND yawing is a lot faster than either of them. use roll to get your target on a diagonal line. if they ever decide to instead use the joystick position to calculate the axis of rotation and then adjust the amount of rotation it wont work anymore. same if your joystick would be limited to a circle instead of a square (so up and left would always be less in both directions than pure up or left).
ie. instead of:
pitch(stick_y);
yaw(stick_x); //yes mathematically horrible, but working fine for infinitesimal steps
it would be:
angle=stick_x^2 + stick_y^2;
angle= (angle>1) ? max_rotation : sqrt(angle)*max_rotation;
rotate(angle, stick_y, stick_x, 0);
would i do that? nah, these ships need maneuvering thrusters and firing the right and bottom ones simply WILL make you rotate faster than firing either of them. only benefit is a more correct rotation for larger time steps (yes, order matters).
ie. instead of:
pitch(stick_y);
yaw(stick_x); //yes mathematically horrible, but working fine for infinitesimal steps
it would be:
angle=stick_x^2 + stick_y^2;
angle= (angle>1) ? max_rotation : sqrt(angle)*max_rotation;
rotate(angle, stick_y, stick_x, 0);
would i do that? nah, these ships need maneuvering thrusters and firing the right and bottom ones simply WILL make you rotate faster than firing either of them. only benefit is a more correct rotation for larger time steps (yes, order matters).
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