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Thread: JTL , why gripe ?
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Hunty
Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:33 pm
#1
To address some of the Gripes that have been brought up in this forum , I'm a Veteran of practically all the Starwars Space combat games on practically all the systems out or that have been out ( yes i really am that old ) and i have to admit that JTL was the fundamental selling point that made me buy SWG in the first place....
one thing i can't seem to understand here is all these people moaning about just how terrible JTL really is...do you lot actually remember some of these games ? X-Wing vs TIE Fighter was good , but it was still pretty pale in comparison to some of the other games , probably the most popular being TIE Fighter following a close second would be X-Wing alliance , sure the didn't have the graphics or the sound , but they had the most important element of all , "Game Play" , i mean the sheer atmosphere of TIE Fighter was enough to get it selling and X-Wing Alliance had bags of the stuff as well , i think peoples main gripe about this is that JTL lacks the content of the other space combat games , its an add-on and it "feels" like an add-on , but that's not to say that its "inaccurate" the RPG " Build your ship" set up is actually pretty good , this isn't supposed to be a space simulator , if it was it would be no fun at all ( *shrugs* well i suppose the hardcore detail freaks would love it ) , sure there's a lot more that could be done about the game , more content could be added , a few little changes here and there , like giving you the ability to adjust your shield and weapon power output like you could in the other games, being able to "Buy" missile re-loads from space stations , little things like that ..
you could expand on this game quite a lot and to be honest it wouldn't take that much doing , such as building new space environments , give players the ability to board disabled medium to large sized craft and space stations , being inside a craft would work pretty much as it does right now , just like being inside a building , except when boarding a hostile craft you get to fight off what's left of the crew and security systems, give players the ability to land on asteroids and plant personal mining facilities , you could even place a few automated weapon systems to protect them from other players and enemy NPC's..
i could come up with a thousand and one idea's for this part of the game , but I'll just cut it short at that...what i will say is that I'd like to see a lot more player useable craft though , and I'd like to see the customisation process updated , like giving you the ability to see how your ship will look before you apply any new customisations , I'm sick of spending a few thousand creds on a texture kit and not knowing what it will look like before i apply it, anyway...
i like JTL because you can personalise it and the combat while at times can be difficult , Tier 1 Vs Tier 4 , its a lot more satisfying than most people give it credit for , all too often I've heard people moaning and saying the games un-balanced , its not , your just trying to destroy an opponent with considerably better equipment that you , yes that's difficult and its "supposed " to be , the idea is to upgrade your ship with better equipment , your find it much easer if you do , another major complaint is the levelling up system , on most Tier 1 ships , you'll receive round 100 points of combat experience depending on the make of the ship , when you need to get 70000 , this is going to take you forever , at this point its common sense to go after Tier 3 ships that will grant you over a thousand points of combat experience , the difference is staggering , go after Tier 1 ships ...you'll need 700 kill's , go after Tier 3 ships you'll need 70 , yes at the higher levels this will take you a little longer , in a suped up Dunelizard i can make around a hundred tier 1 kills in about 10 to 15 minuets , my record has been under 8 minuets , the main problem is finding the ships in the first place, but its really hard to find a place where you face off over ten ships at a time and they keep respawning , if you can do that it won't take long at all and while your at it , think on this , the more powerful your ship the easer it is to take out a higher level opponent..
anyway , to wrap this up , JTL is good and its a dam sight better than a lot of people give it credit for , if your finding it really difficult , its one of three things , your trying to take on opponents that are way to powerful for you ...2 ) Your just a hopeless pilot and you'd be better served by just staying on the ground ...or 3 ) a combination of both .
one thing i can't seem to understand here is all these people moaning about just how terrible JTL really is...do you lot actually remember some of these games ? X-Wing vs TIE Fighter was good , but it was still pretty pale in comparison to some of the other games , probably the most popular being TIE Fighter following a close second would be X-Wing alliance , sure the didn't have the graphics or the sound , but they had the most important element of all , "Game Play" , i mean the sheer atmosphere of TIE Fighter was enough to get it selling and X-Wing Alliance had bags of the stuff as well , i think peoples main gripe about this is that JTL lacks the content of the other space combat games , its an add-on and it "feels" like an add-on , but that's not to say that its "inaccurate" the RPG " Build your ship" set up is actually pretty good , this isn't supposed to be a space simulator , if it was it would be no fun at all ( *shrugs* well i suppose the hardcore detail freaks would love it ) , sure there's a lot more that could be done about the game , more content could be added , a few little changes here and there , like giving you the ability to adjust your shield and weapon power output like you could in the other games, being able to "Buy" missile re-loads from space stations , little things like that ..
you could expand on this game quite a lot and to be honest it wouldn't take that much doing , such as building new space environments , give players the ability to board disabled medium to large sized craft and space stations , being inside a craft would work pretty much as it does right now , just like being inside a building , except when boarding a hostile craft you get to fight off what's left of the crew and security systems, give players the ability to land on asteroids and plant personal mining facilities , you could even place a few automated weapon systems to protect them from other players and enemy NPC's..
i could come up with a thousand and one idea's for this part of the game , but I'll just cut it short at that...what i will say is that I'd like to see a lot more player useable craft though , and I'd like to see the customisation process updated , like giving you the ability to see how your ship will look before you apply any new customisations , I'm sick of spending a few thousand creds on a texture kit and not knowing what it will look like before i apply it, anyway...
i like JTL because you can personalise it and the combat while at times can be difficult , Tier 1 Vs Tier 4 , its a lot more satisfying than most people give it credit for , all too often I've heard people moaning and saying the games un-balanced , its not , your just trying to destroy an opponent with considerably better equipment that you , yes that's difficult and its "supposed " to be , the idea is to upgrade your ship with better equipment , your find it much easer if you do , another major complaint is the levelling up system , on most Tier 1 ships , you'll receive round 100 points of combat experience depending on the make of the ship , when you need to get 70000 , this is going to take you forever , at this point its common sense to go after Tier 3 ships that will grant you over a thousand points of combat experience , the difference is staggering , go after Tier 1 ships ...you'll need 700 kill's , go after Tier 3 ships you'll need 70 , yes at the higher levels this will take you a little longer , in a suped up Dunelizard i can make around a hundred tier 1 kills in about 10 to 15 minuets , my record has been under 8 minuets , the main problem is finding the ships in the first place, but its really hard to find a place where you face off over ten ships at a time and they keep respawning , if you can do that it won't take long at all and while your at it , think on this , the more powerful your ship the easer it is to take out a higher level opponent..
anyway , to wrap this up , JTL is good and its a dam sight better than a lot of people give it credit for , if your finding it really difficult , its one of three things , your trying to take on opponents that are way to powerful for you ...2 ) Your just a hopeless pilot and you'd be better served by just staying on the ground ...or 3 ) a combination of both .
Golrok
Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:35 pm
#2
The reason the gripe is becauseJTL could be (was)so much more but nowis basicly asnon-complex as aclassic 80's coin-oparcade game ported over into a3-D format.
Yes given the modification you can do to your ship is cool but once your ship gets to a point, you totallydefeat thecurrent AI (metal fish)
If you just love to blow up mindless AI over and over againthen yea, JTL is a "blast" but....Its not STAR WARs, thats what the main gripe is really about.. ItsThe Sims: Duck ShootIn Space
Without a reward, reason, or dynamic to PVP'ng in space, 99% of players dont even know how to go overt there, much less willing to PVP to begin with.
Hunty
Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:02 pm
#3
well i will take your point on the PVP part , it honestly seems like a lot of players really don't know how to go Overt , i recently asked this myself while playing as a freelance pilot , seemingly nobody knew you needed 200+ faction points to go Overt ( something i had to find out for myself ), but anyway , give it time , it'll catch on ....eventually , SWG been out a lot longer than JTL , its baby steps right now , things will improve...
think about it this way , I'm a vet of flight Sims of all kinds , but I'm not at RPG's or even MMO's for that matter , what we have here is a space shooter thrown into a bunch of RPG'ers , this is an alien concept tomost ofthem .....Joystick?....Joypad ?.., they'll walk up and prod it with sticks before they ever consider actually playing it , but it will catch on , right now its just early day's , nobody's done this before , tried to mix in full blown RPG with flight sim style combat while still trying to maintain both , Hardcore sim fans Vs Hardcore RPG'ers , nether side is gonna be completely satisfied....yet , let them refine it and work out the kinks , spread the word , go Overt....and anybody who refuses to go Overt....well....they're just big fat chickens right ? 
TarsisDenai
Tue Jul 26, 2005 6:18 am
#4
Hunty wrote:
well i will take your point on the PVP part , it honestly seems like a lot of players really don't know how to go Overt , i recently asked this myself while playing as a freelance pilot , seemingly nobody knew you needed 200+ faction points to go Overt ( something i had to find out for myself ), but anyway , give it time , it'll catch on ....eventually , SWG been out a lot longer than JTL , its baby steps right now , things will improve...
think about it this way , I'm a vet of flight Sims of all kinds , but I'm not at RPG's or even MMO's for that matter , what we have here is a space shooter thrown into a bunch of RPG'ers , this is an alien concept tomost ofthem .....Joystick?....Joypad ?.., they'll walk up and prod it with sticks before they ever consider actually playing it , but it will catch on , right now its just early day's , nobody's done this before , tried to mix in full blown RPG with flight sim style combat while still trying to maintain both , Hardcore sim fans Vs Hardcore RPG'ers , nether side is gonna be completely satisfied....yet , let them refine it and work out the kinks , spread the word , go Overt....and anybody who refuses to go Overt....well....they're just big fat chickens right ?
This is true. I've been playing MMO games for nearly 7 years, but prior to JTL had never played any type of flight sim or even needed to use a joystick for anything. About a week ago I bought a joystick and launched into space for the first time. It was pretty fun, I'm working my way upmy current pilot tree slowly and learning as I go. I'm up to 2111 and I'm doing it on my own having fun. I find that by mixing the ground game and space, I really enjoy both a lot more.
TomedNor
Tue Jul 26, 2005 6:31 am
#5
I think a lot of people aren't happy unless they're complaining.
Also, I think the TV and console game generation has had their imagination fried, making it impossible for them to play a game where you have to make your own content, thus the compalints by some that thier bored and that the game lacks content.
That's actually one of this games strong points, there is no "endgame", or a story that the game forces you thru and once it's done the game is over... which seems to confuse people.... SWG offers unlimited fun, but you have to put some effort into it to get that...
Also, I think the TV and console game generation has had their imagination fried, making it impossible for them to play a game where you have to make your own content, thus the compalints by some that thier bored and that the game lacks content.
That's actually one of this games strong points, there is no "endgame", or a story that the game forces you thru and once it's done the game is over... which seems to confuse people.... SWG offers unlimited fun, but you have to put some effort into it to get that...
TarsisDenai
Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:14 am
#6
TomedNor wrote:
I think a lot of people aren't happy unless they're complaining.
Also, I think the TV and console game generation has had their imagination fried, making it impossible for them to play a game where you have to make your own content, thus the compalints by some that thier bored and that the game lacks content.
That's actually one of this games strong points, there is no "endgame", or a story that the game forces you thru and once it's done the game is over... which seems to confuse people.... SWG offers unlimited fun, but you have to put some effort into it to get that...
My wife dislikes SWG (and the last MMO Iplayed) for this reason. It never ends. That's exactly why I like it.
DavidHarper
Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:46 am
#7
The problem with SWG is there is no real content and there is no story! The world is static and unchangeing nothing happens, the actions of the player affect nothing in the game.
It used to be we had a slight affect as we could participate in storys and either the Empire or Rebelion could win those but they removed them.
So what can you do?
You can choose your class and level up. Once you have done that you can get your character good equipment. Then what? You run DWB and the Corvette a few times but that will get boring fairly fast. So what does that leave? PvP and RP.
Well in PvP you soon find that even though you got your self the good equipment your still useless as there are so many Jedi out there.
RP? Well what use is that when the world in which your acting is unchangeing? You can only RP the same ideas a few times before they become stale.
In the end what is left? To become Jedi? But what happens once you get Jedi? You end up with the same problem, your left with pointless PvP and pointless RP. The only change in PvP is now that you get to go around in a Jedi gank squad.
The world need to be made to feel alive, like it is living and evolving. There need to be 100's of stories which the players can take part in which will effect the universe. We need GM's who come on and take control of the NPC's and have them interact with the players.
Rebels could be called to take out an AT-ST production plant on Naboo. Imperials could be called to protect it. If the Rebels suceed it results in Imperials not being able to purchase AT-ST's for a period of time. Whilst this happens Rebels in space could blokade Naboo and stop any transports from reaching the planet so that Imperial players could not travel there to give reinfocements.
This is why I am thinking of switching to the Matrix. I hear there are a lot of Role Players playing the game and that the story and world is evolving all the time. It really sounds like a more interesting game.
rols_cerentz
Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:52 am
#8
DavidHarper wrote:The problem with SWG is there is no real content and there is no story! The world is static and unchangeing nothing happens, the actions of the player affect nothing in the game.It used to be we had a slight affect as we could participate in storys and either the Empire or Rebelion could win those but they removed them.So what can you do?You can choose your class and level up. Once you have done that you can get your character good equipment. Then what? You run DWB and the Corvette a few times but that will get boring fairly fast. So what does that leave? PvP and RP.Well in PvP you soon find that even though you got your self the good equipment your still useless as there are so many Jedi out there.RP? Well what use is that when the world in which your acting is unchangeing? You can only RP the same ideas a few times before they become stale.In the end what is left? To become Jedi? But what happens once you get Jedi? You end up with the same problem, your left with pointless PvP and pointless RP. The only change in PvP is now that you get to go around in a Jedi gank squad.The world need to be made to feel alive, like it is living and evolving. There need to be 100's of stories which the players can take part in which will effect the universe. We need GM's who come on and take control of the NPC's and have them interact with the players.Rebels could be called to take out an AT-ST production plant on Naboo. Imperials could be called to protect it. If the Rebels suceed it results in Imperials not being able to purchase AT-ST's for a period of time. Whilst this happens Rebels in space could blokade Naboo and stop any transports from reaching the planet so that Imperial players could not travel there to give reinfocements.This is why I am thinking of switching to the Matrix. I hear there are a lot of Role Players playing the game and that the story and world is evolving all the time. It really sounds like a more interesting game.
Have you spent anytime on Kashyyk? From your post, it doesn't seem like you have.
However, your ideas are awesomely cool and it would be very interesting to make such things work. They do sort of work out Live Events along those lines, but the problem is that you have to be a Combatant and what usually happens is that the Imperials or Rebels end up camping ALL of the Starports and then whack anyone who pops in, ready to head to the battle area...
If they can fix that problem, then such live events will likely happen more often...
Hunty
Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:29 pm
#9
DavidHarper...i kinda get what your looking for here and yeah it sounds like a good idea , but how exactly would you incorporate this into the game ? I'm talking practical things here , the dynamic player affected world is a good idea its just not something that's easily done in any "Game" , i mean if we're talking about "Live Events"....they happen , sure they don't happen constantly but they do happen , you just can't have the effects of a live event happen constantly.
its a bit like this , think of the game Starwars Galactic battlegrounds , say the set up is the battle of hoth , yet every unit on the map is an individual player , your gonna get exactly what your asking for here , everything works in real time , ok..it might be possible to blend two previous games , like SW Battlefront and Battlegrounds and incorporate it into the SWG Universe , but the thing you have to remember is that SWG is primarily an RPG ...its not an action battle game , and some of the things that people want can only be found in those kinda games .
as for the Matrix....i have the Matrix , it doesn't even come close to SWG , MxO is a good game by all accounts , the controls take a lot of getting used to as your dealing with a solid model that impacts on the environmental world ...there's none of this players running through each other like ghosts , but one thing should be noted the place is empty most of the time , the graphics required are intense , its not as much fun as it sounds and believe me I'm a dedicated Matrix fan and even i was a little disappointed with it , maybe you should take up playing RTS games online or something ?
I've seen a lot of MMO's and I've even played a few myself , never played EverQuest and I've never played WoW , but what I've seen of the others , SWG seriously blows them outta the water...
its a bit like this , think of the game Starwars Galactic battlegrounds , say the set up is the battle of hoth , yet every unit on the map is an individual player , your gonna get exactly what your asking for here , everything works in real time , ok..it might be possible to blend two previous games , like SW Battlefront and Battlegrounds and incorporate it into the SWG Universe , but the thing you have to remember is that SWG is primarily an RPG ...its not an action battle game , and some of the things that people want can only be found in those kinda games .
as for the Matrix....i have the Matrix , it doesn't even come close to SWG , MxO is a good game by all accounts , the controls take a lot of getting used to as your dealing with a solid model that impacts on the environmental world ...there's none of this players running through each other like ghosts , but one thing should be noted the place is empty most of the time , the graphics required are intense , its not as much fun as it sounds and believe me I'm a dedicated Matrix fan and even i was a little disappointed with it , maybe you should take up playing RTS games online or something ?
I've seen a lot of MMO's and I've even played a few myself , never played EverQuest and I've never played WoW , but what I've seen of the others , SWG seriously blows them outta the water...
Krazed6k6
Sat Jul 30, 2005 9:21 pm
#11
great ideas! but i doubt anything like that will happen, so far ive seen massive ammounts of bounty hunters and jedi. nearly all the people who get this game that ive talked todo it so they can be either a bounty hunter or jedi. i can count on one hand the ammount of people usingmelee classes ive seen in the last week. i only started playing just a few months before the CU, so i cant say im an expert at this by any means, but the ammount of players i meet now is drasticly lower than what it was. very sadening.
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