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Thread: Petition: Please add side-slip manuevers
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Sothicus_Kitara
Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:30 pm
#1
As much as I love dogfighting in JTL, one thing is buggin' me as of late. The majority of "tactics" used are, in effect, pitch manuevers. We all do one of these varients: Wait for the enemy to pass, turn around and dog behind him or wait for the enemy to pass and begin "jousting".
I think this comes from a lack of zero-g maneuvering in the game. You see, if you crack open any decent flight simulator's handbook, you'll see a variety of common maneuvers. The loop, the tight loop, split-"s", the scissors, etc. But all of these havetwo particular features which alters the way the maneuvers are performed and countered. And those featuresare called gravity and loft
For example, pulling up until you are flying in the opposite direction has the same effect as pushing down. These half-loops are countered by a simple pull or push of the stick in the same direction while travelling slower than the target (thus a slightly tighter turn). There is no penalty (or benefit)for manuevering "down" as there would be with gravity and loft (you are no longer fighting gravity and loft cannot keep you "aloft" so you move down very quickly).
A scissors effect cannot happen because there is no gravity or loftto allow a dip in the "up/down" direction during the side to side manuever. This means the counteris a simple yaw manuever from side to side as well.
Having a vertical and horizontal thrust (not that kind you sickos 
) would allow for better zero-g dogfighting by allowing manuevers which could only be performed in zero-g. Now I am not talking about the weird "slide" that was in beta. As fun as that was, having everyone "turret" was boring and dumb.
) would allow for better zero-g dogfighting by allowing manuevers which could only be performed in zero-g. Now I am not talking about the weird "slide" that was in beta. As fun as that was, having everyone "turret" was boring and dumb.What I mean is a shift along the x and y axis at a particular velocity (determined by boosters or whatever)which would be unaffected by pitch or yaw on the joystick during the manuever.
For example if I am flying directly at an enemy in a "chicken" type of fight (our ship's z-axis are parallel), just as he fires I can attempt to avoid by thrusting up, down, left or right suddenly while keeping my axis parallel to the axis of my enemy.
Thatguyfubu
Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:43 pm
#2
I like this idea and have wondered why they did not include this even for left to right. I was an avid FreeLancer player. That game engine allowed for side to side thrust. This thrust was very slow and minor however it was just enough to dodge laser fire coming at you but not fast enough to be used for strafing. It was nice because if you started down the head to head "chicken" patteren you could slightly alter your direction and correct the aiming with yaw.
-Zaran
BillyBobthe50th
Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:58 pm
#3
you could in the beta for awhile, and I loved it. but they got rid of it for "not being the starwarsy way to fly"
Sin-Vraal
Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:58 pm
#4
I'd forgotten that Freelancer allowed for that maneuver.
As someone who cut his space sim teeth in Wing Commander, I've always been partial to the afterburner slide, but I have to agree with the notion that it isn't "very Star Warsy." All told though, I can't say that having a the ability to kick out to one side a little would hurt and/or detract from anything, though I would like to see a little deviation from the laws of physics (as if Star Wars doesn't already take liberal amounts of creaive license) and have such a maneuver be somewhat more effective on the lighter ships, whose pilots [should] be more interested in a little more flying finesse anyway...
As someone who cut his space sim teeth in Wing Commander, I've always been partial to the afterburner slide, but I have to agree with the notion that it isn't "very Star Warsy." All told though, I can't say that having a the ability to kick out to one side a little would hurt and/or detract from anything, though I would like to see a little deviation from the laws of physics (as if Star Wars doesn't already take liberal amounts of creaive license) and have such a maneuver be somewhat more effective on the lighter ships, whose pilots [should] be more interested in a little more flying finesse anyway...
Acrod_Novys
Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:10 am
#7
Yes, this dicussion got quite heated in Beta--I respectfully bow to those who feel added immersion by matching the canon on this one. I personally have more fun with slide maneuvers 
Oh, and Beta never had it quite right--you were never able to cut engines and drift or anything, you just had a whole lotta slide to your turns.
Oh, and Beta never had it quite right--you were never able to cut engines and drift or anything, you just had a whole lotta slide to your turns.EDIT: anyone ever notice how star-ratings reflect the other person's agreement or disagreement, not the quality or delivery of their post's content? That means star rating may often reflect how similar your opinions are to the majority, rather than how good your behavior is.
EDIT 2:
<-----LOL, someone wants to prove my point
Message Edited by Acrod_Novys on 11-19-2004 07:12 AM
Message Edited by Acrod_Novys on 11-19-2004 07:39 AM
Sothicus_Kitara
Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:39 am
#8
I agree that sliding isn't fully Star Wars-ish, the slide that they had in Beta was much different than what I was proposing. Though technically sliding is much more realistic as far as space is concerned, the way it was done made for "turreting" which was rediculous and I think that it why the sliding was removed.
What I am proposing is side to side thrusting (and up/down) which would maintain your heading but alter your bearing. Much like Freelancer as was pointed out. It wasn't much, but it helped with minor course changes and helped dodge laser fire.
Yes, I understand that this is not fully Star Wars-ish either but the WW2 dogfighting had some techniques which aren't possible in the vacuum in space. For example, in the Death Star trench Darth Vader is seen tailing several Rebels and killing them (or narrowly missing in the case of Luke). If you watch, a couple of those Rebel pilots do a scissors manuever attempting to dodge (limited by the width of the trench of course). A scissors manuever is a side to side dodge along an arc such that the ship "dips" in the middle of the path. The change in "altitude" as well as the dodging side to side helps prevent from being hit.
In this game, we cannot perform that manuever effectively. Actually, we can't at all because there is no gravity or loft which we are dealing with while flying.
Anyway, the point of all this is there is very limited manuevering because the ships ARE designed with an Earth-like behavior in space.
Skelestoner
Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:05 pm
#9
the closest thing ive gotten togoing to the sideis rolling in the oppositte direction that im pushing the cursor towards. maybe it isnt exactly strafing, but it does help get out of the way of SOME fire.
Blu_Haze
Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:44 pm
#10
The space battles in the movies were directly immmitating those seen in old WW2 movies. I think I even heard somewhere that GL had his special effects team sit down and watch dozens of clips from the old movies in order to get the feeling and atmosphere just right.
While the realistic space physics design can be fun in other games, it isn't what Star Wars is all about. Just because it's in space doesen't mean it has to follow some basic simulator format.
While the realistic space physics design can be fun in other games, it isn't what Star Wars is all about. Just because it's in space doesen't mean it has to follow some basic simulator format.
Blu_Haze
Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:02 am
#11
Acrod_Novys wrote:EDIT: anyone ever notice how star-ratings reflect the other person's agreement or disagreement, not the quality or delivery of their post's content? That means star rating may often reflect how similar your opinions are to the majority, rather than how good your behavior is.EDIT 2:<-----LOL, someone wants to prove my pointMessage Edited by Acrod_Novys on 11-19-2004 07:12 AMMessage Edited by Acrod_Novys on 11-19-2004 07:39 AM
This is exactly why I disabled the ratings system altogether. On this forum it's nothing but abused and really doesen't mean anything these days anyway. Unfortuanately though even after you disable it you still see your own overall rating on your details page as well as in your own personal tracker. Then I started using Firefox again and used the Adblock extension on each of the star rating images. Now I never, ever have to see them again.
Sothicus_Kitara
Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:53 am
#12
Meant to bump this duringthe weekend for the crowd but forgot.. sigh
Anyone else think this is a good or bad idea?
Zutono
Mon Nov 22, 2004 12:42 pm
#13
Get a FAST (1500+ speed) setup...can actually circle-strafe if you do it right...works like doing doughnuts in a car...full throttle and turn.
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