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Thread: If you thought the AI targeted skill think again, it's all about the equipment!
We are seeing a natural progression of game dynamics focused on "high end" players. The AI changes appear to be made to increase the level of game play that the higher end pilots are needing. Not everyone is "jousting". If your ships top speed is less then 70 you ARE "jousting". If you are in a group and your speed is in the 80's you are not jousting, but engaging in a much more dynamic dogfight. The UI seems to be perfect for engines with a max speed of 82. Could it be a quince dense that a reward engine of is give out at tier 3 in this speed range? It's not! The reward insures that folks can fly at the speed that make the UI the most fun!
The problem with the AI is it lacks the ability to change dynamically based on the ships engaged in the encounter. The formula lacks flexibility. Lower level ships use the same AI that the higher level ships use as well as the same uber-speed engines. This is where the design hits a snag. It is not fun for pilots in the lower tiers to fight against ships that take too long to kill. We are not talking about skill here, lower level pilots are highly skilled, just under equipped.Yet the AI for the lower Tier ships and the engine speeds are the same that the higher Tier ships are using. Without a dynamic AI that adjusts accordingly, lower tiered pilots will have to struggle though an un-enjoyable combat experience until they can upgrade to the higher level ships and equipment that the AI is targeted at.
When you think about it, it makes sense that the AI would have more circular patterns during the time period just after release, but now that most folks are past tier 2, the need to switch the AI to challenge players with faster engines and powerhouse ships is needed. The process we are seeing is not a simple task, rather it is an art form and as the DEV's work their craft they are going to spill some paint now and then.
Blackjack Nova
Blackjack_Nova wrote:
We are seeing a natural progression of game dynamics focused on "high end" players. The AI changes appear to be made to increase the level of game play that the higher end pilots are needing. Not everyone is "jousting". If your ships top speed is less then 70 you ARE "jousting". If you are in a group and your speed is in the 80's you are not jousting, but engaging in a much more dynamic dogfight. The UI seems to be perfect for engines with a max speed of 82. Could it be a quince dense that a reward engine of is give out at tier 3 in this speed range? It's not! The reward insures that folks can fly at the speed that make the UI the most fun!
The problem with the AI is it lacks the ability to change dynamically based on the ships engaged in the encounter. The formula lacks flexibility. Lower level ships use the same AI that the higher level ships use as well as the same uber-speed engines. This is where the design hits a snag. It is not fun for pilots in the lower tiers to fight against ships that take too long to kill. We are not talking about skill here, lower level pilots are highly skilled, just under equipped.Yet the AI for the lower Tier ships and the engine speeds are the same that the higher Tier ships are using. Without a dynamic AI that adjusts accordingly, lower tiered pilots will have to struggle though an un-enjoyable combat experience until they can upgrade to the higher level ships and equipment that the AI is targeted at.
When you think about it, it makes sense that the AI would have more circular patterns during the time period just after release, but now that most folks are past tier 2, the need to switch the AI to challenge players with faster engines and powerhouse ships is needed. The process we are seeing is not a simple task, rather it is an art form and as the DEV's work their craft they are going to spill some paint now and then.
Blackjack Nova
A sound theory, butmissingsome facts.
The high end ships, even with the big engines don't have a top speed high enough to avoid jousting. According to your theory, those flying TIEs, Awings and Dunelizards are the only ones that will benefit from this "dynamic digfight". That means those flying the majority of ships, will continue to fight in the jousting style...not because they have a slow engine or because they are bad pilots, but because the ship they are flying has a modifier that makes that 92.x engine only top at 700, and reguires them to engage in combat at speeds of 350-400...instead of the 900-1000 speeds that the high end interceptors like Awings, Dunelizards and Tie Advanced are able to acheive.
Also, we are not just seeing this jousting style by NPCs as a interceptor vs bomber class. We are also seeing it in bombers trying to joist with other bombers or even faster PC ships. Thats all they do is joust..they dont do anythingelse...The high speed interceptors that get on the tail of one of these jousting ships is no longer jousting, but thats just because the ships is trying to get away from us so that it can joust again. High speed fighters don't joust. No pilot in combat in his right mind will opt to joust. Jousting means that the enemy has their guns on you for as long as you have your guns on them. While its is somehting that may be used in the beginning engagement of the dogfight, from that point on, its all about turning inside the other, its about bringing the guns to bare in a ship that isnt quite as manuverable as yours. Its about staying out of the kill zone of the other pilot's guns.
I do agree that there isnt enough of a mix here though. Jousting would be fine if it were some big bomber..say a kimo..using AB to strafe me while Im in combat...diving in, and then using speed to get way and make another pass...the ship cant get into a turn battle with me ad get on my 6 because its not manueverable. On the other hand, the fighters should be more prone to jump in and work at getting behind me by trying to outfly me in turns, loops, varied speed, rolls...whatever they can come up with to get their guns on me while I do the same.
Ohh...and I'm piloting a Dune with a 92.x engine and 27.5 burner...with RO3 and EO3....My combat speed is 999, and I still end up jousting with many ships...unless I can get on their tale, then they dont even try to lose me with rolls and turns...they try and speed away so they can joust again.
just my 0.2
is occuring because the enemy ships engines are Monty Hall powerful. (A game dynamic that no one likesby the way
. What I am seeing is the jousting pattern being broken up when you are in a group of 3 or more, and when you are in a group of ships to adjust there flight path and stops the jousting from occuring.
If you are a solo pilot, no matter how fast your engines are the jousting pattern is aways used against you. If you are in a group, the AI will use the jousting pattern against the attacking target. This is important in that other members of the group can now attack the enemy ship as it makes it's turn a the end of the joust run. When the other members attack, the original attacker is no longer targeted and can now fly in closer to the enemy that is doing a joust run on the new target. For a group, this kind of combat is much more fun then the circle attacks that we where seeing so much of. This is where the speed factor really comes in. For slower ships, there is no way to close the distance to attack the enemy as they are making the turn from the joust run. Slower ships end up ALWAYS jousting. Faster ships are having a hay day of fun!
Blackjack Nova
To quote Dr. Suess
"We can, will and MUST do better!"
Blackjack Nova
Blackjack_Nova wrote:
Zutono -I am not debating that there are no ways to beat the AI, the issue is fighting it is not fun! If you are fighting one on one or even 2 on one then stopped and turning around so that your back is to the attacking ship and then flooring it so that you can manuver behind them and engage may be an effective way to kill them, but it is a crazy way, a "gamey" way to have to fight an enemy ship. After doing that about 20 times, it gets old and well is not the kind of flight dynamics that I enjoy.
Are you having fun stopping, chasing after a ship, lining it up and killing it again and again? If you are more power to you! Honestly. It is not that there is no way to destory the ships, there are just FUNNER ways to do it!
To quote Dr. Suess
"We can, will and MUST do better!"
Blackjack Nova
Savageda wrote:
"Could it be a quince dense that ..."
Honestly that just killed the whole post for me.
Haha, I was hoping I wasn'tthe only one that noticed that.
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The AI changes appear to be made to increase the level of game play that the higher end pilots are needing.
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Not really. The AI is really stupid, and annoying. I think people want is a more intelligent AI, not a super stat buffed bot.
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Not everyone is "jousting". If your ships top speed is less then 70 you ARE "jousting". If you are in a group and your speed is in the 80's you are not jousting, but engaging in a much more dynamic dogfight.
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Not everyone can get an engine in the 80's and 90's. Useable ones are acutally somewhat rare. They're usually way to heavy in the mass. As for the "dynamic dogfight", i dont really find it that dynamic. IT is fun for all but 2 mins, then becomes very annoying. It takes far too long to kill the mobs trying to acutally dogfight them. And when i dont have to dogfight them, why should i? Theyre incrediblly lame. Just loadup a longprobe with some lvl 8 or 9 guns if you can manage the mass, and blow them out of the sky as the charge at you with their sheer stuipidty.
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The UI seems to be perfect for engines with a max speed of 82. Could it be a quince dense that a reward engine of is give out at tier 3 in this speed range? It's not!
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Acutaly it is a coincidence. 92 speed engines were being rewarded long before last weeks adjustment to the AI to make them supersonic jousters.
Now, if one was to ask me..
"Rapax, do you really enjoy sitting in a Y wing Longprobe, stuffed to the gills with two massive cannons, and sitting there nearly stationary, like a 360 degree revolving gun turret?"
My answer is no.
I want an AI that is more inteligent, and able to do some sort of flight maneuvers, not a stupid hypersonic jousting bot that i can't even keep up with in an A wing with a 92 speed engine. I gave up on the A wing farely quickly because they can still outdistance you, and the tradeoff for higher speed for lesser firepower made for long, agaonizing boring fights. It is quite simpler, faster, and less agonzing to just treat your ship like a gun turret.
Hoefully sony comes up with an AI capable of doing some real manuevering, and not some cheesy cough out by making superbuffing their velocity.
Message Edited by Ducimus on 11-22-2004 12:09 PM