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Thread: Critique & Suggestions for Multiplayer Ships
Though overall I've been relatively pleased with JTL, my personal experience with multiplayer ships has been quite disappointing. Currently, other than the novelty factor and role-playing value, I feel they lack a significant contribution to the game and simply aren't as viable as single-seat fighters. The following are some specific criticisms and suggestions to improve playability.
First of all there's the pilot seat itself. It's excruciatingly frustrating to be told by the system (often repeatedly) that "you must be standing still." Perhaps I'm overlooking a potential exploit here, but couldn't this impediment be removed? Call me impatient, but it's quite an annoying "feature." Let me hop in that pilot's seat and get to piloting ASAP.
Then there's the operations chair. Who exactly is this role supposed to appeal to? You sit in a chair and occasionally execute droid commands and/or pilot specials. Most often, droid commands are best executed once, immediately after take off (and there's no feedback for the Operations officer to let them know the command has been executed). Regardless, due to the delay inherent to droid interfaces and pilot special abilities, this is not a very interactive gaming experience; it is inherently boring.
I would like to see this position significantly expanded. Some suggestions...
Fire Control: similar to the ground game's Squad Leader profession, allow the Operations officer to direct targets (even specific enemy components) to the ship's gunners, the pilot, and any wingmates the ship is grouped with. In this function, the Operations officer could play a pivotal role in orchestrating an attack run.
Countermeasures: like IFF Scramble, except on a group basis. Furthermore, for PvP use, the Operations officer could also have a special ability to jam enemy targeting reticules, making the lead indicators unreliable (yes, even more so than they are now).
Diagnostics: allow the Operations officer to diagnose ship damage and direct crewmates to repair specific components needing attention.
If nothing else, please allow players of ANY faction to sit in the Operations chair. Even if the role isn't expanded, or players of opposing factions can't execute any of the current functions... for goodness sakes at least allow them to sit down and enjoy the view.
Now let's talk about turrets and MP ships offensive capabilities, specifically for pilots. I've yet to speak to anyone who is satisfied with the current setup. Understandably, multiplayer ships are intended for... multiple players. That's not to say that as an Ace pilot, I want to be virtually defenseless if/when my crew goes "link dead," becomes incapacitated, and/or a crew simply isn't available. This is nearly "game-breaking." Ordnance is just not a viable defense under most circumstances, especially against nimble opposing fighters.
Many players have requested/suggested allowing unmanned turrets to be fired by the pilot in a fixed, forward-locked position. Though I would welcome this in favor of the current system, I still don't think it would be very effective/useful given the lack of maneuverability inherent to MP ships. What I propose (and I'm well-aware may be opposed by some) is some minimal form of turret tracking (AI). There's canon to justify this (Han and Chewie didn't have additional crewmembers). Even if it were horribly inaccurate and missed more often than not, I think most players would appreciate this function.
And then there's one of the most disappointing features of JTL: the limited, even general lack of integration with Droid Engineer. I really thought JTL would open up the usefulness and demand for droids. Instead, they're little more than just another standard component many players don't even bother to explore.
What about a targeting droid? In lieu of a crewmate or allowing the pilot to directly fire the ship's turrets from the pilot's seat... how about allowing DEs to craft a droid with the ability to operate a MP ship's turrets instead?
Furthermore, what about a repair droid that... imagine this... repaired things? What would be more "Star Wars" than having an R2 unit wheeling about the interior of a YT-1300, bleepin' & bloopin' while running down plasma leaks and conduit malfunctions?
Then there's MP ship performance. No, I don't have issue with their acceleration/deceleration, nor maneuverability. Given their size, I think performance in this sense is dead on. But what about top speed? Perhaps my memory is flawed, but as I recall from the movies, most big ships were fast... damn fast. They couldn't turn on a dime, nor could they accelerate very quickly, but once they got up and cooking... they booked. I think the top-speed penalty is sorely misplaced. Top flight speed should be the number one defense to flying an MP ship. Slow down to engage a fighter screen, and you're at risk. But once top speed has been achieved, there should be very little that can pose a threat... other than perhaps a missile lock or another MP ship. I fail to see how this could upset balance in the game. MP ships are just as limited as single-seat fighters in terms of weapon range (and in many regards, also in slotting shields/armor... since there's little available to take advantage of their immense mass).
Lastly, though I wasn't in beta, it's my understanding at least one of the MP ships (the YT-1300) came furnished. Yes this is a minor, cosmetic quibble. However, I would like to see this option brought back. Why not allow two variants of ship chassis? One furnished, one unfurnished? Currently, if one is to furnish the interior of an MP ship, you sacrifice inventory space (loot box). There are also few existing furniture schematics that really well represent a starship interior. I'd really appreciate the option of a "pre-furnished" MP ship which would both be authentic to the ship's design and allow me to maintain the full use of the 75 item inventory I'm giving up a lot space for.
Well those are my thoughts. Discuss. Flame. Ignore.
KaiaSowaPit wrote:
First of all there's the pilot seat itself. It's excruciatingly frustrating to be told by the system (often repeatedly) that "you must be standing still." Perhaps I'm overlooking a potential exploit here, but couldn't this impediment be removed? Call me impatient, but it's quite an annoying "feature." Let me hop in that pilot's seat and get to piloting ASAP.
Yes, agree
Then there's the operations chair. Who exactly is this role supposed to appeal to? You sit in a chair and occasionally execute droid commands and/or pilot specials. Most often, droid commands are best executed once, immediately after take off (and there's no feedback for the Operations officer to let them know the command has been executed). Regardless, due to the delay inherent to droid interfaces and pilot special abilities, this is not a very interactive gaming experience; it is inherently boring.
I would like to see this position significantly expanded. Some suggestions...
Fire Control: similar to the ground game's Squad Leader profession, allow the Operations officer to direct targets (even specific enemy components) to the ship's gunners, the pilot, and any wingmates the ship is grouped with. In this function, the Operations officer could play a pivotal role in orchestrating an attack run.
Sounds good. Maybe they should have a target reticle to establish missile locks also?
Countermeasures: like IFF Scramble, except on a group basis. Furthermore, for PvP use, the Operations officer could also have a special ability to jam enemy targeting reticules, making the lead indicators unreliable (yes, even more so than they are now).
Yes, quite useful
Diagnostics: allow the Operations officer to diagnose ship damage and direct crewmates to repair specific components needing attention.
Absolutely
If nothing else, please allow players of ANY faction to sit in the Operations chair. Even if the role isn't expanded, or players of opposing factions can't execute any of the current functions... for goodness sakes at least allow them to sit down and enjoy the view.
Since all theycan do is run droid programs and anyone can run any droid program I don't see the harm in this. If, however, the above features are added I think they should be in the same faction and maybe even based off of pilot skill
Now let's talk about turrets and MP ships offensive capabilities, specifically for pilots. I've yet to speak to anyone who is satisfied with the current setup. Understandably, multiplayer ships are intended for... multiple players. That's not to say that as an Ace pilot, I want to be virtually defenseless if/when my crew goes "link dead," becomes incapacitated, and/or a crew simply isn't available. This is nearly "game-breaking." Ordnance is just not a viable defense under most circumstances, especially against nimble opposing fighters.
Uh oh, I can see where this is going a mile off
Many players have requested/suggested allowing unmanned turrets to be fired by the pilot in a fixed, forward-locked position. Though I would welcome this in favor of the current system, I still don't think it would be very effective/useful given the lack of maneuverability inherent to MP ships. What I propose (and I'm well-aware may be opposed by some) is some minimal form of turret tracking (AI). There's canon to justify this (Han and Chewie didn't have additional crewmembers). Even if it were horribly inaccurate and missed more often than not, I think most players would appreciate this function.
No, disagree. I would suggest fixing it so autopilot remains engaged even if the pilot is away from the pilot seat. They could then run into the turret and operate it if need be.
And then there's one of the most disappointing features of JTL: the limited, even general lack of integration with Droid Engineer. I really thought JTL would open up the usefulness and demand for droids. Instead, they're little more than just another standard component many players don't even bother to explore.
Can never argue about Droid Engineer's needing loving
What about a targeting droid? In lieu of a crewmate or allowing the pilot to directly fire the ship's turrets from the pilot's seat... how about allowing DEs to craft a droid with the ability to operate a MP ship's turrets instead?
No, disagree. That's what crew members are for.
Furthermore, what about a repair droid that... imagine this... repaired things? What would be more "Star Wars" than having an R2 unit wheeling about the interior of a YT-1300, bleepin' & bloopin' while running down plasma leaks and conduit malfunctions?
No, disagree. That's what crew members are for.
Then there's MP ship performance. No, I don't have issue with their acceleration/deceleration, nor maneuverability. Given their size, I think performance in this sense is dead on. But what about top speed? Perhaps my memory is flawed, but as I recall from the movies, most big ships were fast... damn fast. They couldn't turn on a dime, nor could they accelerate very quickly, but once they got up and cooking... they booked. I think the top-speed penalty is sorely misplaced. Top flight speed should be the number one defense to flying an MP ship. Slow down to engage a fighter screen, and you're at risk. But once top speed has been achieved, there should be very little that can pose a threat... other than perhaps a missile lock or another MP ship. I fail to see how this could upset balance in the game. MP ships are just as limited as single-seat fighters in terms of weapon range (and in many regards, also in slotting shields/armor... since there's little available to take advantage of their immense mass).
Don't see the harm of this (except they could encounter complications)
Lastly, though I wasn't in beta, it's my understanding at least one of the MP ships (the YT-1300) came furnished. Yes this is a minor, cosmetic quibble. However, I would like to see this option brought back. Why not allow two variants of ship chassis? One furnished, one unfurnished? Currently, if one is to furnish the interior of an MP ship, you sacrifice inventory space (loot box). There are also few existing furniture schematics that really well represent a starship interior. I'd really appreciate the option of a "pre-furnished" MP ship which would both be authentic to the ship's design and allow me to maintain the full use of the 75 item inventory I'm giving up a lot space for.
Why not let a player use more than one lot. If someone wants to use two lots for 150 storage I don't see what harm this can do.
Well those are my thoughts. Discuss. Flame. Ignore.
I would add a few things
- Give turrets gyroscopes so they maintain a relative position (within turret maneuver constraints) to make them more effective for a live gunner while the ship is moving
- Create Mark VI gear which can only put into MPS and has double the potential stats of Mark V gear
)First, let me start off with a bold statement: multiplayer ships in their current incarnation are simply not fun. In my opinion, they are far too reliant on the combined efforts of multiple players, engaging in high-risk, unexciting, and unrewarding tasks to merely function. Furthermore, I assert that even with a full crew, a multiplayer ship is at a significant disadvantage and less capable than a solo, competent pilot in a well equipped single-seat starship.
This is unacceptable to me.
An ace pilot shouldn't have to give up the majority of his/her abilities, just to chauffeur the slowest, least maneuverable craft in the game. Furthermore, it shouldn't require a full crew and compliment of escort fighters just to fend off what the escort fighters could probably take on their own.
Personally, I'd like multiplayer ships to be more viable for a single pilot to operate and fly solo, only to be greatly enhanced by the contribution of additional crew - not to be completely dependent on it. Is that really so unreasonable? Must my YT-1300 remain dormant in my datapad indefinitely until I can find a large enough group of players willing to make it practical to be flown?
In our galaxy, it would have been more appropriate for Han & Chewie to have offered Luke & Ben compensation to fly with them... not the other way around.
Would augmenting MP ships with repair droids and turret A.I. really detract from the game? In my opinion, not if done properly. They should be inferior substitutes, not superior alternatives. (I might add, currently I think the advantages of internal ship repair are grossly outweighed by the risk of personal injury. It's also an inequity hard to justify that MP ships can't be fully repaired at space stations, like single-seat starcraft.)
Would it go against canon? Undeniably, repair droids certainly would not. Remote turret operation? Hmm... as I recall there was at least one scene not mentioned where one of the Falcon's guns was manipulated remotely (hint: it wasn't in space).
And no offense, but I'm still not buying that the YT-1300 is supposed to have a full crew of eight. EU isn't canon.
The bottom line is that there are many choices for the solo pilot. The MPS comes with many perks and advantages such as inflight repairs, loot storage and massive mass. The cost of these advantages is that the pilot plays a support role. Efforts towards enhancing the MPS should make it funner for everyone on the MPS. If the MPS is turned into a fighter on steroids would introduce balance issues for other enhancement options.
KaiaSowaPit wrote:
I really appreciate everyone's comments, though respectfully, I feel compelled to further express my dissatisfaction and argue a few points.
First, let me start off with a bold statement: multiplayer ships in their current incarnation are simply not fun. In my opinion, they are far too reliant on the combined efforts of multiple players, engaging in high-risk, unexciting, and unrewarding tasks to merely function. Furthermore, I assert that even with a full crew, a multiplayer ship is at a significant disadvantage and less capable than a solo, competent pilot in a well equipped single-seat starship.
This is unacceptable to me.
Being the Pilot of an MPS will not be rewarding for everyone. The type of Pilot who likes it are the types who play the Support Role and are goal oriented players. Fun to them is being the center of attention and having people in their crew having fun. Fun for them is having people eager to team with them in space.
Can the MPS be made more fun to pilot without slaving turrets? Yes, it can be but ultimately if you are a fighter jock you will not find the MPS fun and thus you should choose one of the many SPS that are available and not try to impose your style of play on those who want the MPS to be a MULTIPLAYER ship.
An ace pilot shouldn't have to give up the majority of his/her abilities, just to chauffeur the slowest, least maneuverable craft in the game. Furthermore, it shouldn't require a full crew and compliment of escort fighters just to fend off what the escort fighters could probably take on their own.
The B-Wing is slower and less manueverable than a Nova =>P I'll also add that they do not have to give up anything. They can still pilot any number of SPS ships if they don't want to make sacrifices to be the pilot for a group in a MPS.
Personally, I'd like multiplayer ships to be more viable for a single pilot to operate and fly solo, only to be greatly enhanced by the contribution of additional crew - not to be completely dependent on it. Is that really so unreasonable? Must my YT-1300 remain dormant in my datapad indefinitely until I can find a large enough group of players willing to make it practical to be flown?
There are many SPS. There is no need to make the MPS more viable for a single pilot and fly solo
In our galaxy, it would have been more appropriate for Han & Chewie to have offered Luke & Ben compensation to fly with them... not the other way around.
From my experience people are eager to go up and be the crew in an MPS
Would augmenting MP ships with repair droids and turret A.I. really detract from the game? In my opinion, not if done properly. They should be inferior substitutes, not superior alternatives. (I might add, currently I think the advantages of internal ship repair are grossly outweighed by the risk of personal injury. It's also an inequity hard to justify that MP ships can't be fully repaired at space stations, like single-seat starcraft.)
There are choices to be made. Do you improve the MPS for Multiple Players or do you use those resources to turn the MPS into a flghter on steroids? What are the gains and losses by both choices? There are alot of options for a pilot to go up without a crew while there are few options for a crew to go up in a MPS. Therefore the choice is obvious; the MPS should remain a distinct class of ship retaining it's intended purpose with efforts made to make it more effective in this intended role.
Would it go against canon? Undeniably, repair droids certainly would not. Remote turret operation? Hmm... as I recall there was at least one scene not mentioned where one of the Falcon's guns was manipulated remotely (hint: it wasn't in space).
And no offense, but I'm still not buying that the YT-1300 is supposed to have a full crew of eight. EU isn't canon.
Fidgiter wrote:
Being the Pilot of an MPS will not be rewarding for everyone. The type of Pilot who likes it are the types who play the Support Role and are goal oriented players. Fun to them is being the center of attention and having people in their crew having fun. Fun for them is having people eager to team with them in space.
Basically, the antithesis of the play-style required to become an Ace pilot? (BTW, I don't object to playing support roles, consider myself goal oriented, and enjoying teaming with others... I'm still not having fun... what am I doing wrong?)
Can the MPS be made more fun to pilot without slaving turrets? Yes, it can be but ultimately if you are a fighter jock you will not find the MPS fun and thus you should choose one of the many SPS that are available and not try to impose your style of play on those who want the MPS to be a MULTIPLAYER ship.
Who is imposing a style of play here? How would making the MPS more fun for both solo & group flight be mutually exclusive?
The B-Wing is slower and less manueverable than a Nova =>P I'll also add that they do not have to give up anything. They can still pilot any number of SPS ships if they don't want to make sacrifices to be the pilot for a group in a MPS.
Respectfully, that is incorrect. Though it's only by a very slim margin, the B-Wing is superior in speed and maneuverability to the Nova (the only exception being roll). Furthermore, the B-Wing doesn't require additional crewmen to fire its guns; it doesn't require additional crewmen to execute droid programs & pilot specials; it doesn't require additional crewmen to wander around in a windowless void to repair internal components; it doesn't require additional crewmen to heal aforementioned party members attempting repairs.
There are many SPS. There is no need to make the MPS more viable for a single pilot and fly solo
I disagree. I paid a considerable amount of game currency for the privilege of owning a YT-1300. Heck, I choose Privateer faction specifically for this reason. I'm dissatisfied that my ultimate reward for this endeavor is ownership of what is essentially flying "eye candy" - a ship that relegates me (and my crew) to a very limited duty and is a liability to take into anything more challenging than tier 1 space.
From my experience people are eager to go up and be the crew in an MPS
In my experience, for all of about ten minutes. Then they become bored, frustrated with their limited roles and anxious to get back to the starport (including the pilot).
There are choices to be made. Do you improve the MPS for Multiple Players or do you use those resources to turn the MPS into a flghter on steroids? What are the gains and losses by both choices? There are alot of options for a pilot to go up without a crew while there are few options for a crew to go up in a MPS. Therefore the choice is obvious; the MPS should remain a distinct class of ship retaining it's intended purpose with efforts made to make it more effective in this intended role.
Fighter on steroids? You mean like by creating Mark VI gear that has potentially twice the stats of Mark V components? Shields and armor that are doubly effective? Weapons and ordinance that are doubly effective? Engines and boosters that have double the top speed and PYR of Mark V components? Honestly I think that would pose a larger determent to the game (and need for a full crew) than automated repair droids and turret AI.
Furthermore, though I may be mistaken, I don't believe automated repair droids and turret AI would take a considerable amount of developmental resources. Turret AI is already in the game. Dumbing down the NPC turret AI accuracy and slapping it into Multiplayer ships shouldn't require tremendous effort. And as for automated repairs, we're talking about at most adding a timer to incurred damage, status check that the droid is functional & adequately supplied with repair material, and perhaps pathing algorithms for the droid to navigate the ship's interior (which frankly is just superfluous eye-candy, and not necessary). All of this could (and should) be inferior to having live, human players operating these tasks; just the bare minimum to make a lightly crewed or solo piloted ship viable.
The bottom line is that there are many choices for the solo pilot. The MPS comes with many perks and advantages such as inflight repairs, loot storage and massive mass. The cost of these advantages is that the pilot plays a support role. Efforts towards enhancing the MPS should make it funner for everyone on the MPS. If the MPS is turned into a fighter on steroids would introduce balance issues for other enhancement options.
The cost is EVERYONE (including a contingent of escort pilots) is playing a support role for a ship that lacks a true purpose and is significantly inferior to the sum of its parts. I beg to differ that in-flight repairs are a "perk." Essentially, they are an additional burden that single player starcraft don't have to contend with. Ever get black-barred trying to fix a phantom plasma leak on your X-Wing? I don't think so. Heck, Alliance pilots already have the option of in-flight repairs on any ship they choose (/inspacerepair).
Loot storage? You mean that box I have to consistently get up from my pilot's chair to empty, since it effectively has less storage than me wearing a backpack? That same box I have to give anyone on board administrative access to my ship and ALL its contents in order for them to use?
Massive mass? With the exception of 50k mass armor I had the luxury of slotting, all of the components in my YT-1300 fit quite comfortably in my 190k mass TransGalMeg "Rihkxyrk" Attack Ship (and it's a hell of a lot more capable in virtually all combat encounters). Regardless, I'm still effectively gated by the reactor generation rate (even with overdrive).
I'm not bucking for Multiplayer ships to be turned into "fighters on steroids." I'm merely asking that they be made slightly more viable for a solo pilot to operate, even if still less effective than a moderately equipped TIE Bomber. I'd also like to see the roles for a crew revised and (vastly) improved upon so that they are significantly more compelling and fun to play. The sum of the parts should exceed the whole; a team of players operating a Multiplayer ship should at the very least be comparable to them acting individually in single-seat starcraft.
Multiple players on a Multiplayer ship should be both fun and advantageous; not a boring necessity.