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Thread: Lets get some variety in space, devs (some suggestions provided)
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apierion
Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:34 pm
#1
Ok, i've been playing JTL for a few weeks now (didn't get into it right after launch) and i've made some disturbing observations....
#1: The biggest, most distressing problem, is that ship variety is going the way of armor on the ground - ie, once you get to master, there is NO motivation to use anything other than the master level ships. The design seems to be rock/bigger rock/biggest rock, which is the problem we have on the ground w/combat, right? Didn't anyone see this coming?
At least, for the rebels, there was some variety that makes different ships worth keeping around after you qualify for the next level one. Ie: the y-wing. I mean, that things a TANK. plus, being a two-seater, if you have a co-pilot in the gun, it can be a real beast in theory. Not a yt-1300, but a squadron of y-wings with co-pilots could be a real issue. That's cool.
There is, unfortunately, no reason for anyone to use TIEs, TIE/Ins, etc, once you level up though. Aren't these supposed to be the meat and potatos of the imperial fleet? Also, I don't remember standard TIEs having hyperspace capabilities......or shields for that matter.
The start of a solution:
This is not entirely fleshed out, but i welcome comments. Here's what i'm thinking though.
Low level tie fighters should be CHEAP to manufacture, much cheaper than they are now. Remove the shields, but then make it so Imps could buy say, 4 of them, then go into space with a squadron controlled led by the player, X vs. Tie style. Since the imperial navy is supposed to be SO MUCH BIGGER than the rebel navy, this should be an imp only option. But the tradeoff is that no tie below the Advanced can have shields, AND you can't use any of the shielded TIEs as wingmen. Cheap, but cannon fodder, just like in the movies 
This does NOT mean players can't fly the low level ties, they can get in them too. I'm just suggesting a way to get hordes of TIE fighters in the skies, and be a neat feature for Imperials. Additionally, low level ties shouldn't have hyperspace capabilities.remember, they're supposed to be short range fighters...the solution to this? more on that later...
This does NOT mean players can't fly the low level ties, they can get in them too. I'm just suggesting a way to get hordes of TIE fighters in the skies, and be a neat feature for Imperials. Additionally, low level ties shouldn't have hyperspace capabilities.remember, they're supposed to be short range fighters...the solution to this? more on that later...This is balanced by the fact that rebel ships should in general be a little more dangerous at equal levels, mainly due to having shield capability, and perhaps a little more firepower pound for pound.
As for hyperspace, My suggestion here is that there should be some low-level ships like the firespray, in that they are useable by everyone, but also easily available. Or something like the yacht but not as yacht-y, for transportation purposes. I don't fly my F-16 to the Mc Donalds, You shouldn't be flying your Tie/Advanced on non-imperial business. Yes this means transporting all those little tie fighters for missions becomes an issue. This would be a GREAT way for the devs to implement some player controlled capital ships into the game, even if it's frigates, or ship transports. They don't need to be player controlled, though, the interface could work essentially the same as it does now, but when you need to hyperspace during a MISSION, you would link up with a transport of some sort, which would dump your whole squadron where you need to go. This would also add an element of transport protection all the time...
Yes i know this is asking a lot. Yes i know this isn't entirely thought out, i'm just brainstorming right now, but the problem here is that the paradigm being used in JTL is essentially the same as the one on the ground now, that we're trying to get away from, via the CURB, right? Doesn't anyone else see this becoming an issue?
The only reason I see the devs designing the system this way is so that everything is fair. But fair does not have to mean EQUAL. Stronger rebel ships vs. more plentiful imperial ships, that seems to be what is reflected in the movies, and how all the X vs Tie games did business, and quite well, I might add...
Player commanded NPC ships in space wouldn't break the need for grouping in space for missions either, btw. If anything, it would encourage it. What would be cooler than seeing 6 players commanding 30 tie fighters taking on a big target? Or going into PVP with that kind of backup?
I'm trying to start a discussion here, please feel free to comment/add to this - hopefully one day a dev wil read it
Iwannastarship
Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:39 pm
#2
they HAD to put sheilds and hyperspace on EVERY ship including ties or else the playing field wouldnt be fair.
Srikath
Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:54 pm
#3
Well, ALL those ideas would work if only we had one thing that we dont have. Your deal on Hordes of TIEs vs A few squadron of x-wings depends on the rebel to Imp rations. Currently in the game the ratio is probably an even 1:1 for rebs to imps. But what your proposal needs to have somewthing greater like a 10:1 or 15:1 ratio of imps to rebels for this to have any effect. This would also be a great idea for pvp, but it is obvious you aren't an imp pilot. If you were, u'd know it would be impossible to do our missions w/o any kind of sheild. I do like your ideas on variety and i agree. There needs to be motivation for master pilots to want to fly bombers, interceptors, and TIEs. I'm not denying your ideas so don't take this post the wrong way.
apierion
Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:50 pm
#4
You both missed 2 important points.
#1: they HAD to put sheilds and hyperspace on EVERY ship including ties or else the playing field wouldnt be fair.
reread my post. the tradeoff for sheilds = npc squadron under your command. At the lowest levels of flying for the imperials, you don't have this ability, but it doesn't matter, becuase you can win low level missions w/o shields anyway.By thetime youare needing shieldsto take on heavier missions, you're qualifying for theTIEAdvanced. I am aware there would be a middle ground where the missions might be a bit tough w/o shields in tier 2, but command of a squadron of NPCs is designed to offset that. Once you get to the TIE advanced/defender/oppressor, you get shields as normal. If this tips the balance towards the imps too much, then comparable rebel ships could be tweaked up a little to compensate. This means xwing/awing/bwing, which are supposed to be superior fighters anyway. Remember: FAIR does not have to mean EQUAL.
As for hyperspace....This is why i suggest that all players should have access to some low level neutral ships that ARE hyperspace capable...for transportation purposes. Like i said. I don't fly my F-16 to the 7-11....
#2: Well, ALL those ideas would work if only we had one thing that we dont have. Your deal on Hordes of TIEs vs A few squadron of x-wings depends on the rebel to Imp rations. Currently in the game the ratio is probably an even 1:1 for rebs to imps.
Actually this works best under 1:1 imp/rebel ratios - because i'm talking about NPCs under the control of imperial pilots, not other players. so 1:1 suddenly becomes 6:1, creating a more 'star warsy' feel, however, these extra imperial NPC pilots are cannon fodder - not players, not as tough, but in greater numbers. The PLAYERS basically are the Aces (and most navy's aren't filled with aces, right?), the NPC fighters are the fodder. They are in there to a: give the advantage of numbers to the imperials, to counter the rebel advantage of generally better ships, b: create the presance of TIEs and TIE/Ins, plus generating a market for these low level ships, and c: create a more star-warsy feel to space.
So both your issues were basically considered in my original post, apologies if it wasn't immediately clear.
BTW. I am an imperial pilot 
-apier
Message Edited by apierion on 01-25-2005 04:52 PM
Message Edited by apierion on 01-25-2005 04:59 PM
apierion
Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:54 pm
#5
/bump....posted this pre-CURB....just figured maybe i could get some discussion on it again.....
-apierion
Squeakyshoes
Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:36 pm
#6
nah that would be quite unfair for imps to fly around without shields, armor doesnt regenerate nor shunt like shields do and after one two shots your deadmeat, the amount of wingmans doesnt count in, they would be slaughtered by one volley anyway
and you can be sure the rebs would go after the wing leader first
and you can be sure the rebs would go after the wing leader first
Message Edited by Squeakyshoes on 06-03-2005 08:38 AM
apierion
Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:44 pm
#7
just a start.....i agree that the ai for the npcs would need to be somehow substantially increased, at least for the pets, at least when carrying out orders to attack specific targets. also, since armor is cheap (well is supposed to be) and ties were supposed to be fairly well armored (to account for the lack of sheilds somewhat perhaps ties could be made to allow for extra armor slots.
keep in mind we're talking about standard TIEs, Interceptors, and Bombers. everything else could be shielded. but seriously...if a single player was guilding a wing of TIEs and they all were actively pursuing a single target (ie not just looping around like ai tends to now), i believe that could be a formidable force.
but yeah about the ai - there is no way i should be able to hold my own in a TIE/In (even with shields) against 5 a-wings. something's up there. 'pet' npc ai would need to be better at least for this to work.
AlexKC
Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:35 am
#8
about the argument that there is no reason to fly ships that aren't master-level, I see freelance pilots everyday who fly Dunelizards which is a tier 1 ship. As a rebel pilot I fly an Awing (tier 4).
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