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Thread: Lack of pvp in deepspace or is it just no one wants to go there ?
Message Edited by quadpers0n on 02-02-2005 09:19 AM
Not to be rude Ducimus, but hitting other players in JTL is not nearly as hard as you seem to be making it out to be. I have never participated in or whitnessed a single dog fight where the spacing between hits was much more than 10 seconds tops. Most players are only going to be able to run a full charge Cap to Shield Shunt 4 one time during a dog fight. Even if they have an uber 60 recharge capacitor, they're still going to have to wait 20-25 seconds for it to fully recharge, and that'swith Capaitor Overload 4. If they're using a much more common 1400/45 recharge cap, then they're going to have to wait of full 30 seconds for it to fully recharge. And keep in mind, thats only if they don't fire a single shot while letting the cap recharge. Once WO3 is fixed, even an RE'd level 8 reward gun will use almost 45 energy per shot. Those players flying multi-gun fighters, or those trying to use level 10 guns will see their caps get drained even faster, furthure limiting their ability to use Capacitor to Shield Shunt. Right now in PvP, alight fighter can very easily do an average of 3000+ damage per hit. Just one hit at that damage level is enough to go right through the shields and inflict armor damage on nearly every player out there. Even if that player uses Cap to Shield Shunt and is able to evade long enough for his cap to fully recharge, he's still going to take more none-recoverably damage to his armor or systems on the next hit. More than likely though, he'll be hit several more times long before his cap has a chance to fully recharge. And remeber, this is only for the lightest fighters. Damage in PvP could be cut to one quarter of what it is right now and a decently equipped heavy fighter would still be able to tear through player shields far faster than even the uberest Capacitor/D.I. combo could recover it. For example, there are plenty of players who can do in excess of 10k PvP damage in a single trigger pull. Even someone with an exploited level 8 shield, mark V armor, an 9.0 second level 10 D.I., and a 1600 energy/60 recharge cap is going to have a hard time standing up to even half that damage.
Ducimus wrote:
KaylBreinhar wrote:
Most PvPers are packing a pre-nerf droid interface that, if they're lucky, allows them to execute one command per 60 seconds.
I'd really like to see that stand up to a Borstel-based L8 I'm about to have REed. I could get off a lot of shots in that 60+ seconds.
Assuming you can hit alot in those 60 seconds. I'll wager you won't.
Took some friends on my MP ship to Deep space to see the sights. Happen to be another player in a fighter. The ship was toast beforeyou could say, "Abandon Ship!" Luckily Deep Space doesn't incur decay to the ship parts. I got a good laugh out of dying so fast.Kessel has become a PvE Zone - but has very rare NPC activity in comparison to deep space.
Does this make sense?
You can concentrate on finding an enemy player in Deep Space or you can just go for the NPCs. Its pretty easy to shoot me if Im fighting against ten or even more NPCs - also my framerate isn't that good in Deep Space. If Im in DS I check from time to time if there's an enemy player but I dont do it any second. The radar is full of red dots ...
A-Wings and Tie Advanced (maybe Interceptors too) are the only ships who are usefull in PvP, they're fast and hard to hit - its all about speed and size. All other ships are clay pidgeons, there's no need of tactics or different ships. A Tie Bomber does make no sense in PvP also a Y-Wing/B-Wing doesn't. MP-Ships are a bad, bad joke. PvP is pretty, pretty simple although it isn't that easy to hit another player if he know's to fly.
PvP would be way more interesting if heavier ships have proper shilds and armor. Imagine a battle against a heavily shilded and armored MP-Ship with an escort of light ships: you necessarly need heavy bomb-ships to engage the MP-ship, to disable its turrets. You need light and fast ships to protect the bomb-ships from the light escort primarly. The bomb-ships will have strong shields and armors too but of course not as strong as the MP-ship - whereas the light ships will have weak shilds but therefore are hard to hit and really fast.
It would be a pretty tough and fun battle. Or imagine just two MP-ships and all the ships inbetween.
Okay, the groundgame has priority at this time - but I really hope that they will change space-PvP too in the future. There's no need of a complete *revamp* - just balance it so heavy ships fly more like heavy ships even at there *sweet-spot* but can carry significant better shilds and weapons than a fast ship.
Imaridril wrote:Not to be rude Ducimus, but hitting other players in JTL is not nearly as hard as you seem to be making it out to be. I have never participated in or whitnessed a single dog fight where the spacing between hits was much more than 10 seconds tops.
Ducimus wrote:
KaylBreinhar wrote:
Most PvPers are packing a pre-nerf droid interface that, if they're lucky, allows them to execute one command per 60 seconds.
I'd really like to see that stand up to a Borstel-based L8 I'm about to have REed. I could get off a lot of shots in that 60+ seconds.
Assuming you can hit alot in those 60 seconds. I'll wager you won't.
It can be very hard. But then, you don't fly against an A wing do you? That said, right now i have a 5 to 1 kill ratio against A wings. Ive seen fights last longer than 10 seconds. Espeically when the attacker can't do system damage on his first hit. The reason why fights are short 50% of the time is because of the initial engagement when both people know of each others presense and are approaching each other at a combined rate of what im guesstimating is 2400 speed. That gap closes QUIIICCCKKK. I'll let you onto a little secret, in a dogfight, a 92+ speed engine isn't going to do you any good at all.
All "i say" .. "you say" shennaigans aside, im absoltely positive that if sony reduces PvP damage by as much as people seem to want (75% seems to be the number), may as well give PvP up, no one will be able to kill each other in a dogfight.
Take any typical cannon. Lets gets be generous and say a 3000 damage cannon.
3000 * 0.6 = 1800 damage
Now take 75% off of that 1800 damage = 1350 damage reduction = 450 DAMAGE!!
Let me repeat that, you are now doing 450 DAMAGE.
An average MKIII player made shield has 1300ish capacity.
1300 - 450 = 850 shields remaining.
Now, picture this kind of damage output on a typical dogfight. Now, there is no way, i COULDNT have time to shunt, again, and again, and again, to say nothign of rebels E shields or shield re enforcement.
Ducimus wrote:
Take any typical cannon. Lets gets be generous and say a 3000 damage cannon.
3000 * 0.6 = 1800 damage
Now take 75% off of that 1800 damage = 1350 damage reduction = 450 DAMAGE!!
Let me repeat that, you are now doing 450 DAMAGE.
An average MKIII player made shield has 1300ish capacity.
1300 - 450 = 850 shields remaining.
Now, picture this kind of damage output on a typical dogfight. Now, there is no way, i COULDNT have time to shunt, again, and again, and again, to say nothign of rebels E shields or shield re enforcement.
That says more about capacitor shunt, /eshields and shield reinforcement than it does about damage/shield output.
The problem is that with the current ruleset, there is absolutely no point in trying to bring anything bigger than an A-wing into PvP, unless you actually want the "flavour" the other ships can add. (Like me, who strangely enough bothers to PvP in a B-wing). Why bother with a slower, less maneuverable ship, when its 4 guns won't be much more effective than the one gun on that small maneuverable one?
PvP engagements must last longer, and if capacitor shunt or shield reinforcement prolongs these fights into never ending ones, they should be altered. /eshields is not a good example though, you had to be crazy to use it in PvP, it resets *ALL* droid programs.
Another reason as to why capacitor shunt seems to be so overpowered is most likely because everyone is using a bugged droid program: Weapon Overload 3. But that's another topic...
Vicotnik wrote:
Ducimus wrote:
Take any typical cannon. Lets gets be generous and say a 3000 damage cannon.
3000 * 0.6 = 1800 damage
Now take 75% off of that 1800 damage = 1350 damage reduction = 450 DAMAGE!!
Let me repeat that, you are now doing 450 DAMAGE.
An average MKIII player made shield has 1300ish capacity.
1300 - 450 = 850 shields remaining.
Now, picture this kind of damage output on a typical dogfight. Now, there is no way, i COULDNT have time to shunt, again, and again, and again, to say nothign of rebels E shields or shield re enforcement.That says more about capacitor shunt, /eshields and shield reinforcement than it does about damage/shield output.
Ok so it stands to reason that Cap shunt, Shield programs, and E shield would also have to be reduced.
(intrestingly enough this reminds me of AO. They reduced the PvP damage there, but did not reduce the effectiveness of healing. End result. Doctors became PvP gods because they were neigh unkillable)
Now heres the problem Can you reduce These "healing" programs only for PvP, or is the only change possible a sweeping change that will effect PvE and PvP.
I hardly expect sony to nerf these in PvE that the majority engage in, for PvP of which is the minority intrest. But if theres no way to desceren PvE vs PvP usage of these programs, then reduce damage and we all become "unkillable doc's".
I dont see this as an easy change to make no matter how you slice it. I still think PvP damage is fine how it is, or rather, all player situational awarness equal, is about as balanced as i think they can get it without having to rewrite the whole system. Besides, JTL was designed as a twitch game, i for one would like it to stay that way instead of becoming the space version of beating on 80% composite for 5to 10 minutes ala maxtrix style fighting.
Message Edited by Ducimus on 02-03-2005 11:54 AM
Simple, make it disable weapons for a period of time, meaning that if you are planning on using it you are electing to try and run away. If the re-use time gets bumped up as well that would be even better.
This would have an effect on PvE. No longer can anyone wade into a bunch of tier 5's and solo them, at least, not nearly as easily as before. While I am in the "encouraging group work is a good thing" camp, I can see why the thought of hundreds of "I bought JTL to kill stupid AI and I WANT MY MONEY BACK" screaming whiners are a suitable excuse for the devs to drag their heels.
I agree. Im still trying to figure out why they deviated from the Xwing/Tie fighter sim series mechanics on managing engine, sheilds, and weapons power settings.
Ever play it? It was a pretty good system.
Ducimus wrote:
Imaridril wrote:
Not to be rude Ducimus, but hitting other players in JTL is not nearly as hard as you seem to be making it out to be. I have never participated in or whitnessed a single dog fight where the spacing between hits was much more than 10 seconds tops.
Ducimus wrote:
KaylBreinhar wrote:
Most PvPers are packing a pre-nerf droid interface that, if they're lucky, allows them to execute one command per 60 seconds.
I'd really like to see that stand up to a Borstel-based L8 I'm about to have REed. I could get off a lot of shots in that 60+ seconds.
Assuming you can hit alot in those 60 seconds. I'll wager you won't.
It can be very hard. But then, you don't fly against an A wing do you?
I fly against A-wings all the time, and I do it in a Rihk, a TIE Advanced, and a Firespray. Heck, I went 6 and 0 against a-wings in Deep Spacejust last night. 4 of the fights ended on the first pass, and the other two ended about 20% into the first turn.
That said, right now i have a 5 to 1 kill ratio against A wings. Ive seen fights last longer than 10 seconds. Espeically when the attacker can't do system damage on his first hit.
Its possible for fights to last longer than 10 seconds, but its exceedingly rare. Fights that last under 10 seconds should not be the norm.
The reason why fights are short 50% of the time is because of the initial engagement when both people know of each others presense and are approaching each other at a combined rate of what im guesstimating is 2400 speed.
The reason why fights are so short is that any fighter that can mount two guns or more can reliably one-shot or critically damage virtually any other fighter in the game.
All "i say" .. "you say" shennaigans aside, im absoltely positive that if sony reduces PvP damage by as much as people seem to want (75% seems to be the number), may as well give PvP up, no one will be able to kill each other in a dogfight.
Take any typical cannon. Lets gets be generous and say a 3000 damage cannon.
3000 * 0.6 = 1800 damage
Now take 75% off of that 1800 damage = 1350 damage reduction = 450 DAMAGE!!
Let me repeat that, you are now doing 450 DAMAGE.
An average MKIII player made shield has 1300ish capacity.
1300 - 450 = 850 shields remaining.
Now, picture this kind of damage output on a typical dogfight. Now, there is no way, i COULDNT have time to shunt, again, and again, and again, to say nothign of rebels E shields or shield re enforcement.
I think your math is a little off. First off, you're leaving out Weapon Overload 3, which doubles your gun's damage. Secondly, you're using a 75% damage reduction, which is argueably on the extreme end. Personally I've been argueing for the damage reduction to be 50%. Thirdly, your example gun is actually a little low for what most people can easily get. And fourthly, you're only taking into consideration single gun fighters, which are supposed to have low firepower. A single RE'd level 8 reward gun will right now in PvP do an average of 3200+ damage. That's enough to cut through a crafted 1900 shield AND mark III armor. And that's only if the fighter is using a single gun. If he's flying a two gun fighter, such as a TIE advanced, he can easily up his PvP damage by another 1000 just by throwing on an average RE'd level 4 gun. It gets even worse with the heavier fighters.
Now, letsdo some math concerning your arguement that Cap to Shield Shunt will make players invicible if damage is reduced at all. For the sake of the argument, lets assume that its a single gun a-wing going up againsta heavy fighter with an RE'd 2554 f/b level 8 reward shield, 2000 protection armor,an uber 9.0 second droid interface, and avery nice 1500energy/50 recharge capacitor. For the A-wing, let's assume it does an average 3200damage hit each time. Also, let's assume that the heavy fighter pilot is using Capacitor Overload 4, which in essense gives him a 3000 energy/100 recharge cap.
After the first hit, the heavy fighter has its shields completely gone on one side, and its 2000 protection armor has been reduced to 1354. Thepilot them immediately uses Capacitor to Shield Shunt 4. This returns his shield to 1500. In 9 seconds he's able to use Cap to Shield Shunt again, however in 9 seconds, his uber cap will only have recharged up to 900, which gives him only another 450 to dump into his damaged shield side. That, plus his shield's normal recharge wouldput him at around 2100 shields. Its very unlikely that he'll be able to evade long enough to get off a third Cap to Shield Shunt before taking another hit. After the second hit, his shields are once again down to zero, and now his armor is at about only 250. Now, once again lets assume that he is able to evade fire long enough to get two more Cap to Shield Shunt 4s off. This puts his shields back up around 1000. He then takes a third hit, which once again cuts through all his shields, takes out the rest of his armor, and does close to 2000 damage against his components. More than likely he will be critically crippled at this point, or even destroyed. Either way thefight is probably over. If he's very lucky he may have only lost a non-criticle component, and he'll be able to stick around until the next hit.
Now, keep in mind, the above example was only against a single-gun fighter. Against any of the two-gun fighters, the fight will most likely end on the second hit, instead of the third. Furthermore, remeber in this example the target was in a heavy fighter. Dodging incoming fire in a heavy fighter long enough to get off two Cap to Shield Shunts is not an easy task in the least. Now, let's redo the math with an A-wing vs. an A-wing. In this example, the A-wing being attacked isusinga1900 shield,500 protection armor, a 1200 energy/45 recharge cap, and a pre-nerf 14.0 second droid interface. Also, like before, let's assume that the target ship is running Capacitor Overload 4.
In this example, the first hit takes out all his shields and armor, and does 800 damage against his components. Most likely he'll be out of the fight at this point, but depending on what component gets hit, he might still be kicking. He then does Cap to Shield shunt once, which puts his shields back up to 1200, and 14 seconds later he does it again, which gets his shields back up to about full recharge. He then takes a second hit, which once again knocks his shields all the way back down and then does 1300 damage against his components. At this point only an extremely lucky pilot will still be able to fight. Now, there is one thing to keep in mind.Assuming that Capacitor Overload is suppposed to use more reactor energy in the same way that the Engine Overload and Weapon Overload does, then itsquite likelythat the A-wing pilot will have to give up using Engine Overload and Weapon Overload if he wants to be able to use Capacitor Overload 4. If the A-wing in question is only running Capacitor Overload 2, then the limited survivability he can get from Capacitor to Shield Shunt 4 is even lower. Not that this really even matters, since even if he is able to fully recharge his shields between hits he its still most likely going down on the second shot.
Now, how would the two example fights above turn out if the PvP damage reduction was 50% instead of 25%? In the first fight, the heavy fighter would be able to completely shrug off the first hit with the use of Capacitor to Shield Shunt 4. If he is then able to evade incoming fire long enough to run Cap to Shield Shunt a second time, then he'll be able to shrug off the second hit with only shield damage. However, after that, he'll start taking about 1000 none-shield damage with each hit, and that's assuming he gets off two Cap to Shield Shunt 4s between each hit. If he does all that, he'll probably go down after4 to8 hits, depending on what components get hit after his armor is gone. In the second example fight, the target A-wing would lose about half his armor on the first hit. The second hit, if he evades long enough to fully recharge his shields, will take out the rest of his armor. After that every hit he takes will likely damage or disable a component or two, meaning that he'll probably go down after 3-5 hits.
I think all this math clearly demostrates that a further reduction of PvP damage WILL NOT result in unkillable players.
There's also a few other things to consider...
- In the above examples, the aggressor was always a single-gun fighter. Replace that ship with a two or three gun fighter and the fights will go even quicker.
- The defending fighter in both of the above examples is assumed to not be taking any shots of his own. Once WO3 is fixed, a single use of Capacitor to Shield Shunt 4 will severely limit your ability to return fire.
- Both example fights assume that the defending fighter is able to evade incoming fire for significant lengths of time. If at any point the defending fighter takes an extra hit, his survivability drops significantly.
- In the 1st example, the defending fighter is using some pretty nice equipment. In order to fit all that stuff onto his ship, and still have room for some decent guns, he's going to have to be using one of the bigger, slower fighters, meaning he's a huge target in space.
- In the 2nd example, the defending fighter is using a pre-nerf Droid Interface. If he is forced to use a modern D.I., then he'll be lucky if he can do Capacitor to Shield Shunt twice in the entire battle, much less two times between each hit.
Now, even if we took things to the extreme, and went witha 75% damage reduction, I still can't see there being unkillable players. The only exception would be an A-wing set up in a defensive configuration and using a pre-nerf Droid Interface. And even then that would only be if he was going up against another single-gun fighter. Take away his pre-nerf D.I. and there's no way he can dodge shots long enough to fully recharge his shields, or put him up against a multi-gun fighter and the damage from each shot will be enough to wear him down even with Cap to Shield Shunt 4 every 14 seconds.
Single gun fighter:
Your Rebel A wing. The fighter most rebels with a clue use. I used this in the example to put it in perameters most rebels could understand.
WO3, your right i forgot about it:
overloads to me are about as natural as breathing air, i dont even think about them anymore. However that bug with this needs to become a prioirty to fix.
Regardless.
Right now a player with crappy gear is still compedative. Reduction to 75% (a number which you'll find all over the place in various threads which seems to be the popular vote) will only make an uber vs goober scenario. Joe blow with average gear will no longer be compedative. I don't want that, but at this point i dont care anymore, im just going to laugh when it eventually happends.
At any rate further discussion is pointless. i think everyone has already formed their opinion and is inflexible on it. Ultimately i fear, PvP will be screwed over in JTL, and i think it's inevitable. People complain very loudly when they die and do not understand why. (lack of knowing about "target nearest player for example")
They removed PvP from kessel (instead of moving the master mission), and sooner or later deep space will end up as a EQ like raiding zone where people can go kill their dragon (ISD or space station), and any PvP that is leftover will be a more of a slugfest of who has the better equipment, then who is the more skilled pilot. This is SOE we're talking about, i'll bet what i just predicted comes to pass given enough time.
Ducimus wrote:
There is no way in hell im bored enough to read a 5 page essay playing basketball with statistics. Only two things i acutaly caught out of that long winded essay which could probably pass for a paper in a debate class...
Fine, don't read it, but then please stop making the claim that any further reduction of damage in PvP will lead to unkillable players. My previous post contained several detailed examples showing how this would not be the case. If you think I'm still wrong, then show some math of your own.
Right now a player with crappy gear is still compedative.
No, that's not the case. The only component where quality doesn't really matter is guns, and that's because PvP damage is so high that even crap guns are good enough. The quality of your engine, shields, armor, capacitor, reactor, and droid interface still come into play. It makes no sense that guns should be treated differently. Furthermore, if you want a game where all players have identical ships, go play X-wing Alliance. Players are supposed to be rewarded for taking the time to collect and RE nice equipment for their ship. Its the nature of a role playing game. If you dumb down PvP to where even the lowliest newbs are competetive, then you end up creating a system that sucks for all the serious players. Now, I'm not saying that PvP needs to be balanced for power-gamers, only that it needs to be balanced for average players, which currently I don't feel it is.The gun I used in my above example is not hard to get at all. Every Rebel and Freelance pilot gets a free gun on Tier IV that when RE'd will do an average of 3200+ damage in PvP. This is not power-gamer equipment. This is average. Anyone who thinks they should be 100% competitive with crappy equipment is just being lazy.
At any rate further discussion is pointless. i think everyone has already formed their opinion and is inflexible on it. Ultimately i fear, PvP will be screwed over in JTL, and i think it's inevitable.
It already is screwed over. Haven't you noticed that PvP in JTL is dead on virtually every server. Even at its worst point PvP on the ground was never as dead as it is right now in space.
People complain very loudly when they die and do not understand why. (lack of knowing about "target nearest player for example")
I don't think you're giving people enough credit. Sure, there's always going to be some whiners, but most often when I see someone complaining about a quick death here, its not because they don't know what's going on. Its the exact opposite. They know exactaly what's going on and they think the system sucks.