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Thread: An Effort to make Space more compelling.
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Dougful
Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:23 am
#1
Lorn cawain who's stuck in sweden and can't psot want'ed me to give him props for writing down the gisht of our discussions on sapce. thanks lorn, you doknky monkeyu
it was just brougth to tm attnetion that the anil retuntive lorn CAWIN wanted his GD'd nsame spelled ruignty you happy you B**atrd
Main issues to be dealt with:
1. Compelling missions
2. Squadron level tactics
3. Capital ships
4. GCW
5. Fleet and Squadron objectives
1. Compelling Missions
Like many people in this community, I grew up with the X-Wing series of space-sims. These games brought large scale space battles to the player, but did not overwhelm them. They offered gameplay elements that really enhanced the perception of the user's role in the game. I will be discussing how some of these elements can be incorporated into JTL for a more compelling experience.
I think most of us will agree (PVP aside) that the current space missions, although fun at first, are too cookie-cutteresque for a compelling space experience. Often times you feel like you alone are responsible for the objectives to be completed. Granted, this is appropriate for some of the missions, but when considering that all pilots must join a faction to fly there should be some element of faction cooperation offered. I also realize that missions in space, no matter how many bells and whistles (like I'm going to propose) are added, they are still the same 'fly to the waypoints, maybe do something(like inspect or wait), and kill stuff.' I'd like to note that many of these suggestions are considered with faction alignment in mind (Rebel or Imperial or other).
A disclaimer: many of these suggestions are not original...but I still think they should be incorporated.
2. Squadron level tactics
To eliminate the loneliness of space, I suggest that npc wingmates be added as space-faction perks. Make it possible to earn faction points for your space faction/squadron so that you can buy these wingmates. Simple wingmate commands should be executed in one touch. Perhaps these commands could be earned as the pilot progresses through their selected profession. This is not so far off from buying soldiers from a faction recruiter on the ground game...but perhaps more useful (who knows, maybe after the CU those npc's will be more worthwhile). It wouldn't be necessary to use these npc's, but it would be helpful at times. I am not suggesting that npc wingmates should replace a group of human players. It is not my intention to progress towards a single player game. The number and skill of opponents you encounter should be effected by the number and skill of your wingmates. Let's keep things proportional.
3. Capital ships
Seriously, we need them. This is not a new idea. I will get into how they should be used later, but for the love, we need them.
4. GCW
I haven't had a chance to actually play since early January (my comp in Sweden is lackluster), but from what I've gathered from the forums and a few friends' experiences, the changes to the GCW have been fun and meaningful. As many have said before, let's take the next logical step and move the GCW to space. To do this properly we need capital ships. They could be purchased as faction perks and placed in space as bases are on the ground. Whoever maintains space superiority would gain an advantage on the ground. Depending on the length of the space superiority, the opposing ground faction might have dissadvantages to reflect the length of the 'blockade.'
Along with this, I think it's important to work in faction space ranks, similar to the ground. This would work similar to the prestige points system, I suppose. A higher ranking officer will be able to place more capital ships (or even fighters) at a time than a lower ranking one. They would also have direct command over those ships, like giving them simple orders in combat or orders to relocate them.
5. Fleet and Squadron objectives
There are two flavors to this that need to be considered.
The first is with regards to game given missions (from an npc). An occasional large space battle should be given from npc's. This could be a raid on a space station, taking out a capital ship, or a larger fleet to fleet battle. In these missions, there should be more than one squadron acting with different, but essential roles. A few examples (these should sound familiar), superiority, bombing, bomber escort, capital ship defense, disable components, etc. Capital ships should also have targeting priorities. These roles will be determined by the game. The player's rank in the faction should allow them to play with the objects, responsibilities, and assignments of the mission. Obviously a 2nd Lieutenant isn't going to be able to change much of the mission, especially the capital ships' roles, but an admiral can have his way. This level of control would also be available during combat. I'd like to see a mission briefing similar to that of the old X-Wing games, maybe on the datapad.
The second handles the GCW.
It should be possible for players to organize raids and large scale attacks using capital ships, npc fighters, and human players. This would play out similarly to the npc given missions except a player defines the parameters of the mission. The complexity of this can vary. Perhaps the commanding officers will assign responsibilities to each of their ships and then jump in to the region they're attacking, without specific target information for each ship (i.e. the orders that are given to a particular ship might be something like 'attack capital ships'). Another possibility would be for the organizing officer to conduct reconnaissance in the form of a human player with a special instrument on their ship (they'd be vulnerable to attack of course) or from an npc droid of some sort (the npc would be far less reliable than a human). This would place information in their datapad about the ships present in a particular sector. The officer could then draft specific objectives for each ship, and then assign them (i.e. the orders that are given to a particular ship might be something like 'attack the Executor'). The organizing officer could then present the objectives to human pilots in some sort of slide show briefing...maybe in one of the capital ships.
I realize that a lot of these ideas are not exactly easy to implement, but they'd certainly make space much more appealing.
it was just brougth to tm attnetion that the anil retuntive lorn CAWIN wanted his GD'd nsame spelled ruignty you happy you B**atrd
Main issues to be dealt with:
1. Compelling missions
2. Squadron level tactics
3. Capital ships
4. GCW
5. Fleet and Squadron objectives
1. Compelling Missions
Like many people in this community, I grew up with the X-Wing series of space-sims. These games brought large scale space battles to the player, but did not overwhelm them. They offered gameplay elements that really enhanced the perception of the user's role in the game. I will be discussing how some of these elements can be incorporated into JTL for a more compelling experience.
I think most of us will agree (PVP aside) that the current space missions, although fun at first, are too cookie-cutteresque for a compelling space experience. Often times you feel like you alone are responsible for the objectives to be completed. Granted, this is appropriate for some of the missions, but when considering that all pilots must join a faction to fly there should be some element of faction cooperation offered. I also realize that missions in space, no matter how many bells and whistles (like I'm going to propose) are added, they are still the same 'fly to the waypoints, maybe do something(like inspect or wait), and kill stuff.' I'd like to note that many of these suggestions are considered with faction alignment in mind (Rebel or Imperial or other).
A disclaimer: many of these suggestions are not original...but I still think they should be incorporated.
2. Squadron level tactics
To eliminate the loneliness of space, I suggest that npc wingmates be added as space-faction perks. Make it possible to earn faction points for your space faction/squadron so that you can buy these wingmates. Simple wingmate commands should be executed in one touch. Perhaps these commands could be earned as the pilot progresses through their selected profession. This is not so far off from buying soldiers from a faction recruiter on the ground game...but perhaps more useful (who knows, maybe after the CU those npc's will be more worthwhile). It wouldn't be necessary to use these npc's, but it would be helpful at times. I am not suggesting that npc wingmates should replace a group of human players. It is not my intention to progress towards a single player game. The number and skill of opponents you encounter should be effected by the number and skill of your wingmates. Let's keep things proportional.
3. Capital ships
Seriously, we need them. This is not a new idea. I will get into how they should be used later, but for the love, we need them.
4. GCW
I haven't had a chance to actually play since early January (my comp in Sweden is lackluster), but from what I've gathered from the forums and a few friends' experiences, the changes to the GCW have been fun and meaningful. As many have said before, let's take the next logical step and move the GCW to space. To do this properly we need capital ships. They could be purchased as faction perks and placed in space as bases are on the ground. Whoever maintains space superiority would gain an advantage on the ground. Depending on the length of the space superiority, the opposing ground faction might have dissadvantages to reflect the length of the 'blockade.'
Along with this, I think it's important to work in faction space ranks, similar to the ground. This would work similar to the prestige points system, I suppose. A higher ranking officer will be able to place more capital ships (or even fighters) at a time than a lower ranking one. They would also have direct command over those ships, like giving them simple orders in combat or orders to relocate them.
5. Fleet and Squadron objectives
There are two flavors to this that need to be considered.
The first is with regards to game given missions (from an npc). An occasional large space battle should be given from npc's. This could be a raid on a space station, taking out a capital ship, or a larger fleet to fleet battle. In these missions, there should be more than one squadron acting with different, but essential roles. A few examples (these should sound familiar), superiority, bombing, bomber escort, capital ship defense, disable components, etc. Capital ships should also have targeting priorities. These roles will be determined by the game. The player's rank in the faction should allow them to play with the objects, responsibilities, and assignments of the mission. Obviously a 2nd Lieutenant isn't going to be able to change much of the mission, especially the capital ships' roles, but an admiral can have his way. This level of control would also be available during combat. I'd like to see a mission briefing similar to that of the old X-Wing games, maybe on the datapad.
The second handles the GCW.
It should be possible for players to organize raids and large scale attacks using capital ships, npc fighters, and human players. This would play out similarly to the npc given missions except a player defines the parameters of the mission. The complexity of this can vary. Perhaps the commanding officers will assign responsibilities to each of their ships and then jump in to the region they're attacking, without specific target information for each ship (i.e. the orders that are given to a particular ship might be something like 'attack capital ships'). Another possibility would be for the organizing officer to conduct reconnaissance in the form of a human player with a special instrument on their ship (they'd be vulnerable to attack of course) or from an npc droid of some sort (the npc would be far less reliable than a human). This would place information in their datapad about the ships present in a particular sector. The officer could then draft specific objectives for each ship, and then assign them (i.e. the orders that are given to a particular ship might be something like 'attack the Executor'). The organizing officer could then present the objectives to human pilots in some sort of slide show briefing...maybe in one of the capital ships.
I realize that a lot of these ideas are not exactly easy to implement, but they'd certainly make space much more appealing.
Message Edited by Dougful on 04-19-2005 01:01 AM
Message Edited by Dougful on 04-19-2005 01:05 AM
Message Edited by Dougful on 04-19-2005 01:08 AM
LegioEmperium
Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:40 pm
#3
Yeah, very good ideas indeed.... however, Ihopethey would focus on getting the ground game right first. Because by the sound of it, IF the CU turns into crap, which it sounds like it is leaning that way, then Alot of people that I know, including me (which I must say, I will give them a month or so if theCU does suck,to seewhich directionthe CU is actually taking the game), will have cancelled thier accounts and SOE wontbe bringing in enough funding and kill the game all together.
I really hope im wrong however...
btw, sorry to steal your steam 
these are very good ideas.
/sigh, im just not very optimistic right now.....
Ryushi78
Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:57 pm
#5
F*ck that, give us boarding action. Let us link two mp ships together with docking clamps and hatches and walk between them. Let us take on missions with objectives like boarding a pirate space station after taking out the fighters defending it. Running through the station with a team of infiltrators to set up explosive charges. Have a timer go off and the whole team running like crazy to the docking bay to get to the freighter in order to escape before the whole thing goes up in smoke. Last but not least, add massive dockable space stations like centerpoint station where you can experience adventure, commerce or just kill time at your favorite bar whilst waiting for the next mission to come along.
Add all of that and you'll have a starwars game worthy of our time.
LegioEmperium
Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:33 pm
#6
Ryushi78 wrote:
F*ck that, give us boarding action. Let us link two mp ships together with docking clamps and hatches and walk between them. Let us take on missions with objectives like boarding a pirate space station after taking out the fighters defending it. Running through the station with a team of infiltrators to set up explosive charges. Have a timer go off and the whole team running like crazy to the docking bay to get to the freighter in order to escape before the whole thing goes up in smoke. Last but not least, add massive dockable space stations like centerpoint station where you can experience adventure, commerce or just kill time at your favorite bar whilst waiting for the next mission to come along.
Add all of that and you'll have a starwars game worthy of our time.
yeah, i always wanted to be able to dock small fighters with ships like the sorosub, and the VT49. That would be cool to dock a fighter and "board" another players (a friends mind you, unless overt in kessel or indeepspace...
)ship. stuff like meetings or just to hang out.....
Although there are many players out there with outstanding ideas, i fear we will never see most of them. just my two cents...
Message Edited by LegioEmperium on 04-19-2005 04:34 PM
CommTampers
Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:53 pm
#7
LegioEmperium wrote:
Yeah, very good ideas indeed.... however, Ihopethey would focus on getting the ground game right first. Because by the sound of it, IF the CU turns into crap, which it sounds like it is leaning that way, then Alot of people that I know, including me (which I must say, I will give them a month or so if theCU does suck,to seewhich directionthe CU is actually taking the game), will have cancelled thier accounts and SOE wontbe bringing in enough funding and kill the game all together.
I really hope im wrong however...
btw, sorry to steal your steam
these are very good ideas.
/sigh, im just not very optimistic right now.....
Leave ground combat the way it is; space is the neglected abused child.
padren
Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:31 pm
#8
I don't think the space or any other element will get much attention till after the curb and WOTW is released, right now SOE is worried about last minute issues with their eminent expansion, I hope in about 2 weeks to a month after the expansion is released and they are comfortable with the code we'll see a lot more work done on JLS as incremental patch improvements.
There are a lot of good ideas here and around the JLS forums though and JLS needs a lot of work, I just suspect it will be a bit longer before the devs can think about these sorts of things.
There are a lot of good ideas here and around the JLS forums though and JLS needs a lot of work, I just suspect it will be a bit longer before the devs can think about these sorts of things.
Greblak
Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:42 am
#9
Ah... Wingmen. Great idea 
Sometimes I could use one when some silly pirates jump out of nowhere with my rear armour practically bust!
Sometimes I could use one when some silly pirates jump out of nowhere with my rear armour practically bust!
Dougful
Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:19 pm
#10
yeah, i don't want it to detract from the MMO portion of the game, but it would certainly add to the experience.
ParnellOfBria
Sun Apr 24, 2005 8:13 am
#11
i'd be compelled if space fights weren't just spinning in circles giving myself a hand cramp.
need more ship interaction....
remember xwing versus tie fighter where you coulid divert shields to guns or guns to shields or modify regen rates of shield and guns to better your engine... or improve regeneration and the cost of speed....
all of that stuff made the game interesting... there was something to do besides turning in circles trying to hit your target... you actually had to THINK while flying... not just build the fastest highest damaging ship and go turn in circles...
i hate space as it is right now i hope to god they fix it so that my 21 dollars or whatever the crap i spent on it won't be wasted....
i also liked be able to dodge blaster fire in space...
like higher the level of the gun the slower the bolts fired.....
Greblak
Sun Apr 24, 2005 9:38 am
#12
Ahh... good old X-wing vs TIE.... You got to love the old ones where you actually controlled your ship properly... if you wanted to get out of something, you set almost all power to engines and some to rear shields... now you can just use a booster for 5-6 seconds and hope your pursuer doesn't have a surperiour engine... JTL somehow reminds me of the old space shooters only in 3d. Somewhat arcade feeling to it.
I wish we could all have a SUPER star destroyer to take on
I miss my old Balance of Power expansion!
I wish we could all have a SUPER star destroyer to take on
I miss my old Balance of Power expansion!
MasterUxi
Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:50 pm
#13
Droids should be reworked to basically do what they did in the X-Wing and TIE Fighter games. I like the idea of tying it to droids...
They could add astrogation, as well to the droids and flight computers. This would tie in with the space expansion that's been proposed by many people: Populate sectors of Deep Space and make people follow the routes. Non JTL/ROW accounts would get a small shuttle instance that would consistent of them and whoever else boards the shuttle in their time period (shuttle launch windows to 5 - 10 minutes). Shuttles would not be able to go to prohibited worlds like Endor or Dathomir. World of Warcraft with it's griffon rides proves this works. Above and beyond World of Warcraft, players could trade, send emails and tells and arrange their affairs so they're set when they arrive...
Additionally, there would be Coruscant Sector. No landing on the planet for various real life technical and story issues. Basically there's no need for players to set foot there, but it should be a central nexus of trade, etc.
There could Alderaan Sector with the graveyard of it's world. Mining Heaven but dangerous (I've always thought the asteroid collisions should cause significant damage).
The Rebel Fleet would be hiding at (a) certain sector(s) while there would be multiple Imperial Fleets (one of which was Darth Vaders) looking for them.
Add Hoth Sector and the world of Hoth, reachable only by JTL/ROW and not by shuttle with a permanent Ground PVP battlefield.
Initially, I was for the idea of space stations, but now I'm against them for the same reason I don't want more inhabitable worlds: They'll further dilute the players. I would definitely like more worlds for adventure. But I dont' want more for habitation.
They could add astrogation, as well to the droids and flight computers. This would tie in with the space expansion that's been proposed by many people: Populate sectors of Deep Space and make people follow the routes. Non JTL/ROW accounts would get a small shuttle instance that would consistent of them and whoever else boards the shuttle in their time period (shuttle launch windows to 5 - 10 minutes). Shuttles would not be able to go to prohibited worlds like Endor or Dathomir. World of Warcraft with it's griffon rides proves this works. Above and beyond World of Warcraft, players could trade, send emails and tells and arrange their affairs so they're set when they arrive...
Additionally, there would be Coruscant Sector. No landing on the planet for various real life technical and story issues. Basically there's no need for players to set foot there, but it should be a central nexus of trade, etc.
There could Alderaan Sector with the graveyard of it's world. Mining Heaven but dangerous (I've always thought the asteroid collisions should cause significant damage).
The Rebel Fleet would be hiding at (a) certain sector(s) while there would be multiple Imperial Fleets (one of which was Darth Vaders) looking for them.
Add Hoth Sector and the world of Hoth, reachable only by JTL/ROW and not by shuttle with a permanent Ground PVP battlefield.
Initially, I was for the idea of space stations, but now I'm against them for the same reason I don't want more inhabitable worlds: They'll further dilute the players. I would definitely like more worlds for adventure. But I dont' want more for habitation.
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