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Thread: An Update About Warping(Rubber-banding)
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openploper
Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:38 pm
#1
OK...I know that no one wants to hear this. I've been studying this problem since day 1. And guess what, day 1 was before any patch or upgrade to the game. I finally brought home a carrier line analyzer from work to test my theory and it seems to be true. I'm not saying that a software problem is completely impossible but I have enough evidence now to say with a high level of certainty that: The warping issue is directly related to an interruption in the continuous data stream that is required for space ships to move about your screen smoothly. I've verified the phenomenon on DSL(1 line), Dial-up(4 lines), and ISDN(1 line). Sorry, no cable-modem data, but just for your information....cable is very fast but is the most unreliable data delivery method available. Please don't argue this point. We've been designing and building cable modems since 1995. There are a million ways that your data stream can be interrupted and 999,998 of them are not the game code or servers. It doesn't have to be your service provider either....crap just happens on the internet between your data termination equipment and the server's DTE. The reason you don't notice this on the ground is because the ground game is not based on real-time action. In the ground game, your computer sends a command, the server processes it and sends you the results back, your machine updates your view accordingly, and in the meantime, the stuff on your screen moves around a little to make it seem more fluid. JTL does not operate this way. Continous position data is required all the time. In all 4 of the dial-up tests, the phenomenon occurs for an additional reason(aside from the uncontrollable interruption). With dial-up, if the amount of data required for all the NPC's and players in your viewing area exceeds your DCE rate, you will see a very similar "rubber-banding" effect. In this case, the effect will clear if you fly away to a less populated area of the system.
Additionally, this phenomenon always occurs at low data rates whenever a "batch" of new ships(4-10 or so) appears at the same time(as in a duty mission). The rubber-banding will occur until the initial burst of data is recieved and only the position and "hit" data is being exchanged. V.32, V.34, V.90 and V.92 modems will also attempt to re-negotiate(retrain) the connenction when the slightest change in line conditions occur. This will also cause an interruption....and the reasons go on and on. I wish these things were not true, as JTL is my favorite part of the game....but that's the way the data squirts out. Good luck and have fun.
Additionally, this phenomenon always occurs at low data rates whenever a "batch" of new ships(4-10 or so) appears at the same time(as in a duty mission). The rubber-banding will occur until the initial burst of data is recieved and only the position and "hit" data is being exchanged. V.32, V.34, V.90 and V.92 modems will also attempt to re-negotiate(retrain) the connenction when the slightest change in line conditions occur. This will also cause an interruption....and the reasons go on and on. I wish these things were not true, as JTL is my favorite part of the game....but that's the way the data squirts out. Good luck and have fun.
Karteepy
Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:47 pm
#2
I did take networking in college, and what you're saying certainly does have some reason, but why, then does it not display the number of packets lost when you're playing JTL? I have the network status monitor enabled.
S-1-l2-H-C
Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:58 pm
#3
i agree 100% this is caused by a connection issue.
but i have used dialup dsl and cable and BY FAR my cable is the most reliable. ive never had any trouble with my cable connection.
shfire
Sat Jan 15, 2005 6:38 pm
#4
I use comcast cable, who just upgraded the cable in this area to 300mb. I have only experienced this problem by attaching my Logitech wignman gamepad, then I would describe it as the drunken bee effect not any warping.
openploper
Sat Jan 15, 2005 7:10 pm
#5
I have no answer for the packet loss not showing....I have seen that as well...even when the analyzer clearly showed no traffic and intermittent traffic. I've also noticed that the ping time quits updating after I've been on a while and these may be legit. bugs. But try to notice, when the warping starts, the TX and RX indicators still work are always very low for me....even though no packet loss is shown.
As for the guys with reliable cable modems, I hear ya. When your connection is good, it is very good. But there is a lot of marginal service out there.....consider yourselves lucky....especially if you live in an area where many of your neighboors have cable modems....we could talk about those issues all day.
Take Care.
As for the guys with reliable cable modems, I hear ya. When your connection is good, it is very good. But there is a lot of marginal service out there.....consider yourselves lucky....especially if you live in an area where many of your neighboors have cable modems....we could talk about those issues all day.
Take Care.
Nalgol
Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:35 pm
#6
hm i have a lan with 5 pcs all play over one dsl line (linux fli4l router)
3 can play jtl fine
2 have the pullbacks
why is it so?
this is the think i have send to tsr
Problem:
since launch form jtl i and my brother (the pc's of cours)
get every 1-2 minutes asyncron with space this holds
on for 30 sec till a minute in this time we cant hit anything
becaus the hitzones of the enemys are not where they should be
or the enemys are warping all over the space
at the resyncro the engine drops to 0 and we get
pulled back for 50-100 meters
since launch form jtl i and my brother (the pc's of cours)
get every 1-2 minutes asyncron with space this holds
on for 30 sec till a minute in this time we cant hit anything
becaus the hitzones of the enemys are not where they should be
or the enemys are warping all over the space
at the resyncro the engine drops to 0 and we get
pulled back for 50-100 meters
some ppl here
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=lightspeed&message.id=167987#M167987
and here
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Techsupport&message.id=198651#M198651
have the same problem
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=lightspeed&message.id=167987#M167987
and here
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Techsupport&message.id=198651#M198651
have the same problem
i have a local lan with 6 computers 5 play swg 2 of them have the warp problem
in jtl and the other 3 can play jtl fine
pc's in my lan:
my pc (has the warp problem in jtl) my brothers pc (has the warp problem in jtl)
asus A7N8X-X nforce2 board asus A7N8X-E delux nforce 2 board
amd athlon xp 2600 amd athlon xp 3200
asus V9950 Serie FX 5900 128 mb asus V9980 Serie FX 5950 Ultra 256 mb ram
1024 mb ram 1024 mb ram
creative soundblaster live creative soundblaster live
asus A7N8X-X nforce2 board asus A7N8X-E delux nforce 2 board
amd athlon xp 2600 amd athlon xp 3200
asus V9950 Serie FX 5900 128 mb asus V9980 Serie FX 5950 Ultra 256 mb ram
1024 mb ram 1024 mb ram
creative soundblaster live creative soundblaster live
my frinds pc (has no problem with jtl) my other frinds pc (no problem with jtl)
ausu A7N8X-X via chip board asus A7V8X via chip board
amd athlon 2000 amd athlon xp 2400
asus V7700 gf2 32 mb ram Terra Tec Mystify 5200
1024 mb ram 1024 mb ram
my secondary pc (no jtl problem)
geniatec board i thing with via chip
amd athlon 2000
asus V7700 gf2 32 mb ram
512 mb ram
the awnser was that my firewall is blocking the ports witch it dont do i even tryed it without the firewall
openploper
Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:55 pm
#7
Wow Nalgol. I don't know what to say. But I sure would like to know what the actual network traffic to the troubled machines looks like when this occurs. Do the troubled machines have this problem even when the other machines are not gaming or receiving data?
I can't help but feel strongly that something is interrupting the continuous flow of data...perhaps there is an addressing bug that comes and goes. I'm hoping that continuing to discuss this will eventually get a response fome someone at SOE who has actually put some effort into solving this very widespead phenomenon....or at least providing an explaination that has some merit.
I can't help but feel strongly that something is interrupting the continuous flow of data...perhaps there is an addressing bug that comes and goes. I'm hoping that continuing to discuss this will eventually get a response fome someone at SOE who has actually put some effort into solving this very widespead phenomenon....or at least providing an explaination that has some merit.
Lomier
Sun Jan 16, 2005 12:18 am
#8
Well Nalgol I did notice that the systems you are having problems with have motherboards with nvidia chipsets. Being a computer tech myself for many years with a lot of hardware experience, I can say that Nvidia has a long way to go before their motherboard chipsets are reliable in my opinion. Even VIA has been known to have a number of issues as well from time to time.Inferior motherboard components can cause anything from degradedsystem performance to flatout compatibility and functional issues between differentpieces of hardwareand software in a system. It is quite possible this is happening in your case. A possible solution would be an updated inf pack for your specific chipset and OS if it is available from the manufacturer.
For future reference I would recommend a motherboard based on an Intel chipset. Intel motherboard chipsets have nearly always been rock solid reliable and offer great performance. No other manufacturer to date has been able to match the reliability of Intels motherboard chipsets. Nvidia and VIA are quick to add "bells and whistles" to their chipsets in an effort to beat Intel but if the chipset is bugged or inefficient thanwhats the point of using it in myopinion.
As far as my experience with this"warping" problem, it hasonly happened to me about5 or6 times (very rarely) since JTL came out. I do have cable internet service and my system isbasically a Pentium 4 - 2.8 GHz with2GB ram& an ATI 9800 Pro 256MB video card.
Message Edited by Lomier on 01-15-2005 11:28 PM
Nalgol
Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:58 am
#9
@openploper
it doesnt matter if i play allone or all 5 play jtl somtimes i have some backround downloadind to and the 3 pc have no warping
only the 2
help from soe hm i have send them now 7 mails all i got back was the randome rawnsers (check your drivers clean boot or its my firewall)
@Lomier
i also think it is something with the nforce2 chip
and i have tryed severl drivers but it doesnt fixed the problem
Message Edited by Nalgol on 01-16-2005 11:59 AM
Kylroi
Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:12 am
#10
Lomier wrote:
Well Nalgol I did notice that the systems you are having problems with have motherboards with nvidia chipsets. Being a computer tech myself for many years with a lot of hardware experience, I can say that Nvidia has a long way to go before their motherboard chipsets are reliable in my opinion. Even VIA has been known to have a number of issues as well from time to time.Inferior motherboard components can cause anything from degradedsystem performance to flatout compatibility and functional issues between differentpieces of hardwareand software in a system. It is quite possible this is happening in your case. A possible solution would be an updated inf pack for your specific chipset and OS if it is available from the manufacturer.
For future reference I would recommend a motherboard based on an Intel chipset. Intel motherboard chipsets have nearly always been rock solid reliable and offer great performance. No other manufacturer to date has been able to match the reliability of Intels motherboard chipsets. Nvidia and VIA are quick to add "bells and whistles" to their chipsets in an effort to beat Intel but if the chipset is bugged or inefficient thanwhats the point of using it in myopinion.
As far as my experience with this"warping" problem, it hasonly happened to me about5 or6 times (very rarely) since JTL came out. I do have cable internet service and my system isbasically a Pentium 4 - 2.8 GHz with2GB ram& an ATI 9800 Pro 256MB video card.
Message Edited by Lomier on 01-15-2005 11:28 PM
Now, let's not go pointing fingers and saying "NVidia's bad and Intel's good". Had you really looked at what was posted, NVidia chipsets are used on both working and non-working system. For that matter, had you read all the threads regarding this issue, you'd note that even your precious Intel systems suffer from this issue. Celeron and Pentium 4 both have been listed as having the bug. And it's not just NVidia video cards, either. ATI Radeon users have also been listed having this bug.
I have no doubt that a small percentage of the problem is due to network traffic interruption. However, it's just very odd that so many users could all get the exact same network trouble at the same time, and that time happened to coincide with a game hotfix or publish.
I was once the "Intel is the only reliable platform" tech, as you are now. When the Athlon came to market, however, Intel must have been surprised. I say that because Intel "quality" either dropped shortly there after (trying to play catch-up, maybe?) or other chipset manufacturers simply started making better products. I have SiS and VIA based boards, both for Intel and AMD processors, that run circles around and Intel based board. It's all in who builds the PC and what purpose it's for. If it's a gaming system, you don't want Intel. If it's a power server, you certainly DO want Intel. Neither is better or worse than the other, but tweaked for better performance in certain areas.
ana-mo-cara
Sun Jan 16, 2005 12:59 pm
#11
Be mindful sometimes its the game. Far too many times in this game I have seen rubberbanding happen, and I would say everytime it was not my connection or pc.
Since it would just happen to everybody on a planet or in the game.
Lets just say that the majority of rubberbanding is a connection issue. Sometimes its a problem with the servers.
I remember after the city mount publish. That one night I was in a player city and I kept banding back 300 meters. So I stopped for a minute and watched as I banded over and over. I started up a conversation in tell with a friend on another planet. He said hey are you banding too. Meanwhile over the team speak everyone was screaming about the banding, and someone on another planet said hey we are all at coordinates 0.0.
So the servers can have banding issues.
Its a question. If you do not usually rubberband, and you start rubberbanding alot. Then odds are its the server.
If your rubberbanding all the time, then its probabally your connection.
Lomier
Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:47 pm
#12
Kylroi wrote:
Now, let's not go pointing fingers and saying "NVidia's bad and Intel's good". Had you really looked at what was posted, NVidia chipsets are used on both working and non-working system. For that matter, had you read all the threads regarding this issue, you'd note that even your precious Intel systems suffer from this issue. Celeron and Pentium 4 both have been listed as having the bug. And it's not just NVidia video cards, either. ATI Radeon users have also been listed having this bug.
I have no doubt that a small percentage of the problem is due to network traffic interruption. However, it's just very odd that so many users could all get the exact same network trouble at the same time, and that time happened to coincide with a game hotfix or publish.
I was once the "Intel is the only reliable platform" tech, as you are now. When the Athlon came to market, however, Intel must have been surprised. I say that because Intel "quality" either dropped shortly there after (trying to play catch-up, maybe?) or other chipset manufacturers simply started making better products. I have SiS and VIA based boards, both for Intel and AMD processors, that run circles around and Intel based board. It's all in who builds the PC and what purpose it's for. If it's a gaming system, you don't want Intel. If it's a power server, you certainly DO want Intel. Neither is better or worse than the other, but tweaked for better performance in certain areas.
When I made a reference to this issue I said I had a possible solution in that it may have been the chipset causing a problem. I have seen inferior chipsets cause many unusual problems with a system. The general comments I made concerning Intel chipsets have been proven in testing. I did not say that Intel was faster, I said they offer great performance and were the most reliable. But since you did mention the speed factor, my response to that would simply be that I would always take areliable productover a fast oneno matter howmuch faster it is.
In addition, most software requirements rarelyneed the fastest hardware configuration available so speed is not a critical issue asmanywould make it out to be.Nearly every experienced computer tech. I have known over the yearshas shared the same view on this as I have. In any caseif someone wants to save some money and purchase a non-intel chipset based motherboard then thats their choice. Its really no big deal to me as long as I don't have to work on their system when they have problems with it.
Message Edited by Lomier on 01-16-2005 05:53 PM
Kylroi
Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:22 pm
#13
Lomier wrote:
In any caseif someone wants to save some money and purchase a non-intel chipset based motherboard then thats their choice. Its really no big deal to me as long as I don't have to work on their system when they have problems with it.
Message Edited by Lomier on 01-16-2005 05:53 PM
Funny you should say that. I've been doing tech work for more than 10 years (I predate the 486 in the tech world and remember when the 386 was the new kid), and more than 50% of the time, it's an Intel chipset that I do have to get working right. Now, that's a mix of percentages (more Intel based systems being used versus other brands) and poor choice of platform for the application. As you did point out, though, speed isn't always the important factor. Thus the reason I said servers are best on Intel. They are, typically, more dependant on raw staying power than speed. Most hardcore gamers, however, are more about squeezing every extra frame per second out of their system as they can.
Trust me, I wish it was as simple as a chipset issue here, or a connection issue. The fact that does hold true for this is that we all broke with a game update (some of us broke at different hotfixes or publishes). No hardware has been found in common with everyone suffering from this. No software appears to be common, either. Connection type varies, and seems to not matter as some users have noted systems both having and not having this issue while both use the same internet connection. The fact that changing external (to the game) software/drives can and has corrected the problem is what really bothers me. The only thing I can think of that would allow that sort of change to influence things is if SWG (and other software, for that matter) are using certain regions of memory space or specific system calls that should not be directly used. I would just like to see the exact cause narrowed down with some sort of workaround or fix.
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