Jedi Archive
Thread: **CONCEPT & DEV SUGGESTION** Master/Apprentice Option
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EMC2
Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:21 am
#1
"Always two there are. A master and an apprentice." Yoda
....except in SWG where Jedi are forced to play completely solo (odd for a MMOG designed for social activity)to avoid an extremely buggy and sensitive visibility system. Jedi who try to defend themselves against BHs with a mission further increase visibility and are perpetually on the BH terminals despite the outcome of dying to a BH ordefeating the BH inthe player bounty event and are eventually forced to logout of a game they pay a monthly subscription to play, as a group of BHs will eventually come to overpower the Jedi while the Jedi is NOT able to group for balanced defense.
There simply is no good means of RP in this design for the BH scenario, the FRS, or just PvE training and adventuring.
We've been tossing this idea around and manyhave posted different thoughts. I spent some time this weekend working on a collaborative concept (credit gong to all contributors in the forums here)that I'd like to see the following happen as a supplement to the FRS XP to encourage a mentor relationship between a Master and Apprentice (Knight and a Padawan) that is so prevelant in the films and stories.This is at the very heart of the Jedi lore !!
Updated Executive Summary:
- Allow the Master toassign trials for the Apprentice using a list available from an NPC in the Enclave with rewards linked to the success (special color crystal, pearl or damage crystal to further enhance the Apprentice's lightsaber, etc)
- Enable the workshop so that one or more Masters can orchestrate a series of Trials which may include PvP competition among the Padawans with rewards for the champion (similar to reward suggested above). This would help prepare them for PvP tactics.
- Essentially, put the "RP" capability into the game so that at least the player base can emulate the stories.
Master/Apprentice:
There should be a two-way radial menu between Padawans and Knights/Guardians that allows them to immediately choose each other into a linked Master/Apprentice relationship that is persistent until selected to be terminated by either party. If either chooses to drop the relationship, the other gets a gmail notifying of the change in this relationship and require it to take 23 hours to be completed. This relationship should also be shown in the Enclaves to any FRS of the same faction who view that FRS Knight/Guardian's information in the terminal. Upon a Padawan completing the Knight Trials, the relationship is instantly terminated as this new Knight is now capable of taking on their own Padawan from this point forward. Gmails should be sent to all ranked Knights/Guardians of the same FRS when a new Knight achieves this significant goal.
Guardians (upper FRS ranked) could take on a Padawan in a formal relationship, but should really be more focused on leading their side of the FRS and encourage the Knights to handle the direct mentoring and day to day training of younger Jedi. Guardians could possibly hold 'workshops' for FRS xp (like Yoda did in training the young ones in Episode II), to keep some hands on interest in the overal training process of the organization, but their prime goal is to coordinate and guide the FRS for thier side.
There should be quests that the council can select from an Enclave terminal that are complex and require a coordinated plan (including groups of Jedi) to complete.If Jedi remain in the GCW (uncertain how new FRS design may go), perhaps owners of faction bases can have an option in the base terminal to request protection resulting in aquest appearing in the Enclave quest terminal for the same faction Jedi to respond. The councilshould also be able to assign some of these quests to a Knight for the Knight and/or a Knight/Padawan team to accept and complete. Upon success of the quest, the council member gains FRS XP, the Knight gains FRS XP, and the Padawan gains Jedi XP.
Knights should focus on having a single Padawan in this one-to-one linked relationship to provide the knowledge and protection commonly found in this master/apprentice scenario, particularly because they are very capable of offering their own recent experience of training to Knight level and provide significant protection against the dangers that face low skilled Jedi. Knights should also interface and communicate often with the council and participate in the FRS activities under the guidance of the council. Knights should also be involved in directing training workshops for multiple padawans. Knights should gain the following benefits while in the 100m presence of their designated Apprentice (Padawan):
1. A percentage of the Padawan's earned Jedi XP converted to FRS XP for the Knight.
2. A slight increase to Force regen (+5 would be reasonable) to show the benefits provided from the Force to benefit a Knight willing to share their knowledge and offer protection to a young Padawan in training.
Padawans should focus on training. If they choose to accept a Knight/Guardian as a mentor, they should receive the following benefits (beyond being just a solo Padawan without a designated Master):
1. Gain access to the Enclaves only while grouped with their master and in 100m range, OR while grouped by another FRS ranked member in 100m range. The purpose of this access is to introduce the Padawan to the future benefits that exist for becoming a full time member of the FRS, as well as to provide a safe area for them to recover from visibility, and to attend focus workshops given by Knights and Guardians/Council Members.
2. Padawans should gain a slight increase to Force regeneration while in 100m radius of their designated Master, possibly a +5 to regen. This provides an incentive to encourage this relationship and the Padawan should show respect to the power of being in the presence of their Master. They should WANT to be near their Master, even more than wanting to wear their robes.
Workshops Concept:
These should be focused on specific training (lightsaber techniques, force power usage in PvE/PvP, healing techniques, etc) that would offer FRS xp to the Knight or Guardian leading the workshop and provide Jedi xp to the attendees. Perhaps Knights/Guardians could hold one workshop in a 23 hour period that requires them to demonstrate a certain number of skills inside the Enclaves using a "Workshop" terminal to initiate a workshop and to generate an NPC humanoid or animal (menu choices) in one of the Enclave chambers. Any Padawans grouped with the Knight/Guardian would get Jedi XP for each round of the workshop. The requirements could be like 20 rounds per workshop before FRS xp and Jedi xp are granted to the attendees. Leave the direction of training to the Knight/Guardian on whether he/she does all the work in the demonstration, or invites one or more of the Padawans to engage as well in a given round.
*variation* Outside the Enclaves: In the event it is too hard to design this feature in the Enclaves, or as an additional supplement to Enclave workshops, thesecould be conducted anywhere by a ranked Knight who obtains a workshop item (like a unique crystal obtained from the Enclaves no more than once every 23 hours) in the Knight's inventory with menu options on it. The only downside to having this in the open is there is increased risk the workshop will be interrupted, even abusively griefed by other players outside the workshop.
*** ASSUMPTION: Visibility would NOT be increased for Jedi working with Jedi in this design of master/apprentice and/or workshops. In fact, there should be ZERO visibility generated between Jedi anyway ***
OK, there is the framework of this concept to add player driven content, FRS XP, and some very appropriate mentor and effective hierarchical relationships back into a more Star Wars-y feeling Jedi experience. It also should help isolate us effectively from the non-Jedi population and reduce our daily impact on those who want to see less Jedi everywhere.
Let's hear YOUR thoughts on this concept...
Message Edited by EMC2 on 06-01-2005 07:27 PM
EotchajCrestingcloud
Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:35 am
#2
Yes, please.
Previous post:
What about a Jedi school? Initiates go to school to learn and advance in the force. Guardians teach the school in order to advance to Master. Limited schools with limited enrollment means limited Initiates and limited Masters. Don't make it instanced.
You apply to the school of your choice. Prove your worthiness (helping other people reach their goals, maybe). You get an invitation. You attend school, learn, perform tasks, take tests (yes, realtests that test knowledge or prowress), advance in the force, more school, more tasks, more tests and finally, if you don't wash out, you can go on Padawan quests perhaps under the guidance of aKnight that wants to advance to Guardian. Padawan to Knight path might include other, more exotic quests with other live players and NPCs (protect the mayor that got on the Bounty Hunter terminals).
If you're really good, learn well and play well, the path to Initiate should maybe take3 months. Initiate to Padawan another 3 months. If there aren't any Knights available, then you can't move from Padawan to Knight. Likewise, Knights will need Padawans to advance to Guardians. Guardians will need Initiates to advance to Master. Everybody will need people that they can help... whether that's helping to destroy a city or helping a group of poor dancers protect a new cantina from those evil destroyers.
Glzmo
Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:41 am
#3
I like this concept of a workshop thing. While it is a nice idea, the master/padawan relationship should be used first and expanded upon with the workshop.
Oneproblem I see why the master/Padawan thing wouldn't work the way you describe it is that a master hinders a Padawan while leveling by 'stealing' his Jedi XP. For example, my current Padawan doesn't want mewith him when he is gaining XP, because I steal most his XPby killing his creatures when we fight together and he is faster leveling alone. A solution may be that the master and the Padawan both get full Jedi XP for a creature they both attacked together. This is especially important for Padawans, but may also come in handy for Masters that may be in a deep negative Jedi XP hole because of the perils of the current FRS. Also, A Master should gain substantial Jedi and FRS XP for teaching his Padawan a Jedi skill, and his Padawan should gain a substantialXP bonus forlearning from hisor her master as well, to encourage learning from the master (a player) instead of an NPC.
Oneproblem I see why the master/Padawan thing wouldn't work the way you describe it is that a master hinders a Padawan while leveling by 'stealing' his Jedi XP. For example, my current Padawan doesn't want mewith him when he is gaining XP, because I steal most his XPby killing his creatures when we fight together and he is faster leveling alone. A solution may be that the master and the Padawan both get full Jedi XP for a creature they both attacked together. This is especially important for Padawans, but may also come in handy for Masters that may be in a deep negative Jedi XP hole because of the perils of the current FRS. Also, A Master should gain substantial Jedi and FRS XP for teaching his Padawan a Jedi skill, and his Padawan should gain a substantialXP bonus forlearning from hisor her master as well, to encourage learning from the master (a player) instead of an NPC.
Perhaps a master should also gain full FRS XP for a dark Jedior Bounty Hunter they defeat together to prevent thePadawan form 'stealing' the Master's FRS XP.
Besides, I also like the idea of the master crafting and handing out a Padawan braid with a modified wedding interface.
Besides, I also like the idea of the master crafting and handing out a Padawan braid with a modified wedding interface.
Feel free to read section 12. in my thread
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=jedi&message.id=484983
for more on this.
Message Edited by Glzmo on 08-30-2004 10:04 AM
EMC2
Mon Aug 30, 2004 10:10 am
#4
I agree Glzmo. The workshop concept here is a "no brainer" for working well to compensate all invovled for short periods of focus training and much needed socializing, but the PvE efforts of master/apprentice will have the challenge of the master either being bored to death watching the paddy work, or the paddy being bored to death watching the master clear things out. Perhaps they really spend more time as a pair when doing the quests I mentioned, but the Paddy is still doing a majority of xp gaining while solo. The master can be off somewhere else unless the paddy gets in trouble and calls for assistance.
If they are together, there will have to be a blending of xp given to both to keep Knights from prematurely and artificially advancing young Padawans at a rate faster than intended. Seems as if they could scale it appropriately by taking 150% of the mob's normal capped xp that would be given to one player and divide that based on private difficulty level of the two Jedi. So a brand new Paddy running with a Knight may only see 5% or 10% of the xp they would get while solo, but see a 40% to 60% share of the xp as they get closer to becoming a Knight themselves.
I really hope this catches a few eyes as it brings much needed social, content and depth to the profession and further encourages Jedi to stay focused and not get into the fray of thenon-Jedi population more than is necessary (I'm showing sensitivity to the "sky is falling with Jedi" crowd).
Message Edited by EMC2 on 08-30-2004 10:25 AM
Glzmo
Mon Aug 30, 2004 10:37 am
#5
EMC2 wrote:
I agree Glzmo. The workshop concept here is a "no brainer" for working well to compensate all invovled for short periods of focus training and much needed socializing, but the PvE efforts of master/apprentice will have the challenge of the master either being bored to death watching the paddy work, or the paddy being bored to death watching the master clear things out. Perhaps they really spend more time as a pair when doing the quests I mentioned, but the Paddy is still doing a majority of xp gaining while solo. The master can be off somewhere else unless the paddy gets in trouble and calls for assistance.
Of course they will be bored, but if so, they can go on on their own. I seeitas a way of controlling the Master from giving the Padawan too much extra experience all the timeWorking together should still bea benefitcompared to training alone.
If they are together, there will have to be a blending of xp given to both to keep Knights from prematurely and artificially advancing young Padawans at a rate faster than intended. Seems as if they could scale it appropriately by taking 150% of the mob's normal capped xp that would be given to one player and divide that based on private difficulty level of the two Jedi. So a brand new Paddy running with a Knight may only see 5% or 10% of the xp they would get while solo, but see a 40% to 60% share of the xp as they get closer to becoming a Knight themselves.
That is a great idea indeed. It wouldn't be too hard to devise and implement a formula based on this either.
I really hope this catches a few eyes as it brings much needed social, content and depth to the profession and further encourages Jedi to stay focused and not get into the fray of thenon-Jedi population more than is necessary (I'm showing sensitivity to the "sky is falling with Jedi" crowd).
Absolutely, things like this - you may actually call it content -are sorely missed inthis game.
Stonemoe
Mon Aug 30, 2004 10:48 am
#6
Yea me and other peeps have been pushing this for a couple months now (at least it seems)...This is from my post. The full version can be found there, however its probably too much work for the devs to want to go through.
- Griefing, constant killing, Jedi in droves, all are killing the PvP experience for EVERYONE, it needs a change
- ORIGINAL SYSTEM WILL REMAIN IN PLACE
- Killing Overts still yields XP
- Killing other Jedi will yield even more XP than before, hard to kill other Jedi unless grouped (not necessary, however)
- SUPPLEMENTAL methods of XP gain
- Padawan System
- Light Jedi voted in
- Dark Jedi duel to get in
- Must be grouped, 64m, attack creature, 0.5-1.0% FRS XP of the Padawans Jedi XP (maybe not afk as well?)
- Padawan gets 25% bonus on XP when grouped and 64m range with Knight
- Knight gets XP bonus for defending during BH attack
- XP Bonus for teaching Padawan
- XP Bonus for Knight Trials Completion
- Meditation
- Light – 500 XP max per day, no XP for the day if mediate is broken via attack
- Dark – Regain up to 50% of lost XP from death if meditated within 1 hour of death
- Theme Parks (Dark Jedi do Imperial, Light Jedi to Rebel)
- Jedi Mission Terminals
- Enclave Events
- Light – Voting for most noble, helpfulJedi
- Dark Jedi – Dueling
- Padawan System
- FRS XP from Supplemental methods are NEGOTIABLE
- No FRS XP from badges
- Extra tidbits (desires, but I know they won't be put in ):
- One skill box per increase in rank, loose the rank and loose the new skill
- Small resists (3-5%) per rank, implemented through the robe, loose the rank, loose the resists
I like the concept of workshops and guardians being able to have this. All the other supplemental things I suggested are cool and all, but really the only thing that is needed is the master / apprentice. If it were just that and killing other Jedi for XP, this would be amazing. It would place so much more RP value and be much more in line with SW...
Message Edited by Stonemoe on 08-30-2004 01:49 PM
Haruhara
Mon Aug 30, 2004 2:17 pm
#7
I love this idea every time I see it. I would really like to roleplay a knight teaching and protecting a padawan. I like the new ideas you put in about letting the padawans enter the enclave to learn. Right now the enclaves are way underused. I was hoping they would be an intergral part of the knight community.
Lets hope the devs listen to this.
Haruhara Haruko
Child of Spring 
Message Edited by Haruhara on 10-06-2004 05:15 PM
EMC2
Mon Aug 30, 2004 3:52 pm
#10
I would have put this into the weekly "In Concept" thread, but haven't seen one in a while. I guess the pub 10 focus is paramount right now. Guess we can try to nudge this up again in a few days if it doesn't get a red named post showing attention was reached.
Morda
Mon Aug 30, 2004 3:56 pm
#11
I was just thinking. The basic model of the apprentice and master thing could work for all professions really. It could basically be set up like a private guild with only 2 people in it and each gets some bonus for doing professional things in close proximity to other at the same time. Wouldn't it be nice to study under a master armorsmith, bounty hunter or swordsman?
I only bring it up because the more application an idea has to the overall game then the more likelihood that it will see the light of day. There could be tweaks and additional functions for Jedi such as the missions and enclave ideas, but the basic concept could work for everyone.
Morda
Tue Aug 31, 2004 12:03 am
#12
I like the idea of a Master/Apprentice relationship as well as the workshop and the missions. I also think grouping with other Jedi should not increase visibility for any of them with some limitations to prevent20memberJedi solo groups forming to max missions everywhere.
I do not like the idea of a Jedi "school" or academy however. Being able to occasionally learn something in a protected environment is one thing, butthe xp gained from grinding should be learned out in theopen. I think it is crucial that Jedi be forced to level for the most part out in the open with the threat of visibility and BH encounters.
EMC2
Wed Sep 01, 2004 4:21 pm
#13
I doubt this will float long in the sea of old men threads, but what the heck....maybe a dev will see it.
/bump
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