Jedi Archive
Thread: Calling all players to agree on what powers needs to make it viable
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lordhan
Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:02 pm
#1
I know there is a focus thread for powers that already exists, but reading through it seemed that players tossed any idea out instead of trying to agree on something. Remember this thread focuses mainly on master powers in jedi pvp. After reading this post I hope we can agree on what needs to be done to make powers viable so that maybe the changes will be implemented.
Necessary fixes in powers:
Add Advanced Lightning [available at master, should have increased minimum damage of 200 over improved lightning, also there should be no zip timer. The reason for the increased minimum damage is that powers has a good high damage against creatures with low defenses, but against another player, they are usually hitting with their low-end damage, which is not much after innate armor. Advanced lightning movement and force cost should be similar to that of advanced saber throw. Advanced saber throw with a knockdown is the most damaging branch attack for all jedi, it has the same range and much lower force cost than anything powers can dish out (not calling for nerf, this is just a comparison). Add knockdown to advanced lightning because many powers users don't have the option to go MLS because they have to pick up added defenses from either enhancer of defender which is a good reason why powers should have access to a single powerful kd. Currently area knockdown cannot be used if one is around any creatures or they would incap themselves. ]
Remove zip timer from power's specials if advanced lightning is not added [powers does not dish out massive damaging attacks in the jedi profession, and thus there is no need for a zip timer on their specials.]
Action, Force Costs and Damage Output [Possibly pull the action and force cost from lightsaber that the user is holding, or have powers jedi select what lightsaber they want to pull their force and action cost from. It will enable those that don't want to carry a lightsaber to do so. This will still require powers to pick up pearls and such to make a good lightsaber. Also power's damage could be pulled the same way from the lightsaber so lightsaber users don't feel cheated in terms of our damage capabilities.]
Should separate powers cooldown attacks from lightsaber [Powers is separate from lightsaber and therefore should have different cooldowns. So Powers/Lightsaber users can coordinate their attacks with strategy and have the power's tree as an aid to lightsaber users who wish to pick it up and use. The reason for a jedi to be powers is that they should be able to dish out increased damage but there is no way to do that. Powers would not be overpowering because there are specials that almost totally negate the attacks such as feedback and it even turns a high percentage of power's damage against their user.]
Increase in speed of lightning if powers cooldown not separated from lightsaber [throughout powers there should be some kind of reduction in speed for specials, either reduce cooldown or have it reduced in advanced lightning skill. I do not feel that powers should have to take force speed from enhancer for their tree to be somewhat viable. It greatly restricts the different templates that powers can go. Powers already has to pick up defenses from another tree so why should they have to pick up a speed increase too.]
Improve to hit% on all powers [currently most powers attacks take about 4 to 5 tries to make them work which is very draining on force. Fix powers hit% to be in line with the force accuracy they have. Not sure if force defense and ranged defense are both necessary. Force Weaken idea below may fix this problem.]
Choke [should go through jedi innate armor. In addition to this, choke should root the target.]
*Force Weaken [should reduce opponents defenses by 400 to a minimum of 200 melee and ranged, this is to make it not to damaging to non-jedi. For example, a master defender with aura active will be reduced to 415 defense {(215 ranged +100 force defense +500 aura) -400 weaken} and without aura to 200 melee and ranged. Power's accuracy is 215 so master defenders with aura active will still have twice the defense and have their innate armor. This is to address the added problem of ranged defense and force defense in the defender tree that both affect powers to hit%, which makes it very hard to actually hit the target.]
*there is already an armor break for jedi in lightsaber skill tree, and feel that this would make weaken in power's tree more unique and better suited for powers.
Breach [should have a very good chance of removing 50% of jedi buffs and locks these skills down from being reactivated for 15 seconds upon which breach and opposing jedi skills can be reactivated, this would prevent the buff from being removed and activated right away. Force cost could be close to that of the removed skills although this may be too draining. I think this would give powers more of a chance against enhancer jedis so that combat is more action based and no one has an I-win button. For example, powers may breach the enhancer and remove feedback enabling them to dish out damage for 15 seconds until feedback is reactivated, causing both jedis to have to be on there game and keep aware of what's happening through the fight.]
Possible changes and additions:
Force Intimidate [could make passive ability that lasts for 5 to 10 minutes and has 20% damage reduction. The cost could be around 100-200 force to activate. Reason for change is that all other jedi trees have a passive ability: lightsaber has block, enhancer has armor, defender has aura and valor and healer has infusion. It will put a state on the user when activated just like aura.]
Force Damage [could make it just like force speed in terms of modifiers. It will not be better than enhancer since damage over time will be equal. Also force speed would still differentiate itself since it reduces their timers and allows them to pull off necessary combos faster.]
In Conclusion:
I do not feel that this would make the powers tree an I-win template, but just bring it up to balance with the other trees out there. Please don't mention that frs will make master powers a viable template. Through frs both the dark side and light side get bonuses, so if the power's template cannot put up a fight before frs then they won't be able to after.
Please only give constructive comments that will help bring powers into balance with other jedi professions out there. Read through the whole post including people's comments before making a reply to avoid the repetition of comments. DO NOT CALL FOR NERFS OR FLAME ANYONE, this is not the place for that. If you agree or disagree give a short explanation why and state if your powers/non-powers or non-jedi. This will help to show that there is possibly agreement between light and dark jedi on what powers needs to be viable.
Necessary fixes in powers:
Add Advanced Lightning [available at master, should have increased minimum damage of 200 over improved lightning, also there should be no zip timer. The reason for the increased minimum damage is that powers has a good high damage against creatures with low defenses, but against another player, they are usually hitting with their low-end damage, which is not much after innate armor. Advanced lightning movement and force cost should be similar to that of advanced saber throw. Advanced saber throw with a knockdown is the most damaging branch attack for all jedi, it has the same range and much lower force cost than anything powers can dish out (not calling for nerf, this is just a comparison). Add knockdown to advanced lightning because many powers users don't have the option to go MLS because they have to pick up added defenses from either enhancer of defender which is a good reason why powers should have access to a single powerful kd. Currently area knockdown cannot be used if one is around any creatures or they would incap themselves. ]
Remove zip timer from power's specials if advanced lightning is not added [powers does not dish out massive damaging attacks in the jedi profession, and thus there is no need for a zip timer on their specials.]
Action, Force Costs and Damage Output [Possibly pull the action and force cost from lightsaber that the user is holding, or have powers jedi select what lightsaber they want to pull their force and action cost from. It will enable those that don't want to carry a lightsaber to do so. This will still require powers to pick up pearls and such to make a good lightsaber. Also power's damage could be pulled the same way from the lightsaber so lightsaber users don't feel cheated in terms of our damage capabilities.]
Should separate powers cooldown attacks from lightsaber [Powers is separate from lightsaber and therefore should have different cooldowns. So Powers/Lightsaber users can coordinate their attacks with strategy and have the power's tree as an aid to lightsaber users who wish to pick it up and use. The reason for a jedi to be powers is that they should be able to dish out increased damage but there is no way to do that. Powers would not be overpowering because there are specials that almost totally negate the attacks such as feedback and it even turns a high percentage of power's damage against their user.]
Increase in speed of lightning if powers cooldown not separated from lightsaber [throughout powers there should be some kind of reduction in speed for specials, either reduce cooldown or have it reduced in advanced lightning skill. I do not feel that powers should have to take force speed from enhancer for their tree to be somewhat viable. It greatly restricts the different templates that powers can go. Powers already has to pick up defenses from another tree so why should they have to pick up a speed increase too.]
Improve to hit% on all powers [currently most powers attacks take about 4 to 5 tries to make them work which is very draining on force. Fix powers hit% to be in line with the force accuracy they have. Not sure if force defense and ranged defense are both necessary. Force Weaken idea below may fix this problem.]
Choke [should go through jedi innate armor. In addition to this, choke should root the target.]
*Force Weaken [should reduce opponents defenses by 400 to a minimum of 200 melee and ranged, this is to make it not to damaging to non-jedi. For example, a master defender with aura active will be reduced to 415 defense {(215 ranged +100 force defense +500 aura) -400 weaken} and without aura to 200 melee and ranged. Power's accuracy is 215 so master defenders with aura active will still have twice the defense and have their innate armor. This is to address the added problem of ranged defense and force defense in the defender tree that both affect powers to hit%, which makes it very hard to actually hit the target.]
*there is already an armor break for jedi in lightsaber skill tree, and feel that this would make weaken in power's tree more unique and better suited for powers.
Breach [should have a very good chance of removing 50% of jedi buffs and locks these skills down from being reactivated for 15 seconds upon which breach and opposing jedi skills can be reactivated, this would prevent the buff from being removed and activated right away. Force cost could be close to that of the removed skills although this may be too draining. I think this would give powers more of a chance against enhancer jedis so that combat is more action based and no one has an I-win button. For example, powers may breach the enhancer and remove feedback enabling them to dish out damage for 15 seconds until feedback is reactivated, causing both jedis to have to be on there game and keep aware of what's happening through the fight.]
Possible changes and additions:
Force Intimidate [could make passive ability that lasts for 5 to 10 minutes and has 20% damage reduction. The cost could be around 100-200 force to activate. Reason for change is that all other jedi trees have a passive ability: lightsaber has block, enhancer has armor, defender has aura and valor and healer has infusion. It will put a state on the user when activated just like aura.]
Force Damage [could make it just like force speed in terms of modifiers. It will not be better than enhancer since damage over time will be equal. Also force speed would still differentiate itself since it reduces their timers and allows them to pull off necessary combos faster.]
In Conclusion:
I do not feel that this would make the powers tree an I-win template, but just bring it up to balance with the other trees out there. Please don't mention that frs will make master powers a viable template. Through frs both the dark side and light side get bonuses, so if the power's template cannot put up a fight before frs then they won't be able to after.
Please only give constructive comments that will help bring powers into balance with other jedi professions out there. Read through the whole post including people's comments before making a reply to avoid the repetition of comments. DO NOT CALL FOR NERFS OR FLAME ANYONE, this is not the place for that. If you agree or disagree give a short explanation why and state if your powers/non-powers or non-jedi. This will help to show that there is possibly agreement between light and dark jedi on what powers needs to be viable.
Dark Jedi who wishes to remain anonymous
"I do not like to show my abilities out in the open but to keep them hidden till the right moment"
Jedi as of September 04
"I do not like to show my abilities out in the open but to keep them hidden till the right moment"
Jedi as of September 04
Kurso
Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:00 pm
#2
What do you mean by 'balance'? What role do you feel Powers should have? As powerful as MLS? Not that MLS is really that powerful.
Tsukara
Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:08 pm
#3
Wasn't Yoda - Master Powers, Master LS? ... i'll tell you what ... i'm the same template as Yoda, and i have a GLASS JAW!
i would say, even removing the zippers from our moves would be a SIGNIFICANT improvement. the other piece is about Choke ... that is an immobilizing move in Star Wars movies ... should be here as well. Choke should have root as part of it, and it SHOULD break through Jedi Innate. ... also, another Master Powers should be able to deflect the Powers of another Master. imho
Kurso
Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:01 pm
#4
I agree Powers is pretty gimpy at the moment. But I do believe Powers should be a support role. Just for the pure fact that Powers vs Jedi, particularly something like Cloak, (which is a Jedi mind trick used on weak minded people) should not be as effective. More often than not in the movies Jedi vs Jedi was sabers because Powers vs. another Jedi was pretty ineffective. Just another reason IMO that defense should be built into other skills rather than it's own profession.
I would say the zippers need to be removed the powers. I'm not a fan of them in general.
hraka
Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:13 pm
#5
1. Remove zip bars is numero uno.
2. Increase lightning damage by 25%
3. Make weaken armorbreak
4. Increase intimidate to 50% damage reduction.
2. Increase lightning damage by 25%
3. Make weaken armorbreak
4. Increase intimidate to 50% damage reduction.
Yny
Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:18 pm
#6
Changing the spots where Aura and Valor are found would cut down on the Defender dabblers from having 50% mitigation against powers. That would make a HUGE difference in JvJ fights. That and removing zip bars would make powers 100% better in my opinion.
I do like the Advanced Lightning at Master Powers idea. Maybe it could do more damage than Advanced Saber Throw.
sanct_squadleader
Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:37 pm
#7
number 1 fix: Remove the force defense mod from the game, this will enable powers jedi to fight on a more level playing field against sabers jedi.
If they arnt going to remove the force defense mod than the following fixes might suffice:
1. decrease force cost by 50%
2. Increase lightning dmg to match power attack or remove the zip bar
3. remove zip bar from force strike, it renders the special completly useless and im not just saying that. Its true
4. make force weaken work as it did pre-cu like when the nightsisters used to use it. When i got hit by weaken by a nightsister i lost almost half my ham, it was devestating. Or make weaken a force defense break.
5. fix the animations.
6. let us use the lower tier versions of intimidate and knockdown.
7. make intimidate last longer or decrease the force cost or make it reduce more dmg.
8. The cool down timer on choke is rediculous, reduce it to 10 seconds at most.
9. fix claok so people cant /follow cloakedjedi
10. Make force hit do as much dmg as saber hit with an average saber.
well thats my list. but I still say the easy and simple fix is remove force defense all together, its just not fair that there should be a defense that defends powers dmg only and no other profesion.
jrt
Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:38 pm
#8
umm they have alrdy cut powers FC in half and powers is a support pro for states and stuff like that....
sanct_squadleader
Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:47 pm
#9
jrt wrote:
umm they have alrdy cut powers FC in half and powers is a support pro for states and stuff like that....
You dont know what your talking about buddy, yes they already cut it in half once but it needs it again trust me, sabers fc was cut at least twice as much as powers was, secondly it was stated by the devs that powers is supposed to be a viable alternative to lightsaber and it was classed as a DAMAGE DEALING CLASS not a SUPPORT CLASS so get the hell out of here with that bs cause im sick of hearing it
Ged_FM
Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:49 pm
#10
I would like not having to "root" myself in order to inflict a lightning attack. What am I a tree and hafta draw the lightning from the ground? Hmm if I could move around using force lightning with its current force cost, then if I root myself to draw from the ground it should use less force since I'm drawing the power from elsewhere. Can we carry some sorta power generator to draw our energy from? I'd like my pet rock thats fed crystals and pearls I don't tune well that I can throw at my enemies or draw force attack power from. Just a silly thought, but a fun one.
Prowlies a must see Clicky!
Uninformed
Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:35 pm
#11
Well, I appreciate the effort, but they aren't listening unfortunately. Bac did what he could, so did SonGouki before him. Jedi fixes haven't been listed in the last several publishes and it doesn't look like they have any intention of fixing what is broken with what could be a great alternative to saber.
Gillik
Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:47 pm
#12
Yny wrote:
Changing the spots where Aura and Valor are found would cut down on the Defender dabblers from having 50% mitigation against powers. That would make a HUGE difference in JvJ fights. That and removing zip bars would make powers 100% better in my opinion.
I do like the Advanced Lightning at Master Powers idea. Maybe it could do more damage than Advanced Saber Throw.
actually if Im not mistaken there is an improved aura n Valor at tier 4. So people who actually go defender will b better than the dabblers.
Yny
Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:46 pm
#13
Gillik wrote:
Yny wrote:
Changing the spots where Aura and Valor are found would cut down on the Defender dabblers from having 50% mitigation against powers. That would make a HUGE difference in JvJ fights. That and removing zip bars would make powers 100% better in my opinion.
I do like the Advanced Lightning at Master Powers idea. Maybe it could do more damage than Advanced Saber Throw.
actually if Im not mistaken there is an improved aura n Valor at tier 4. So people who actually go defender will b better than the dabblers.
An example of what I mean by a dabbler is someone who has 0040 Defender or 0440 Defender. They get advanced arua and a PILE of force defense for the bargain price of 28 skill points. That line is by far the most popular line in Defender since it has aura which gives good defense against all physical attacks (melee and ranged)and also as a bonus you get a whole whack of defense against force attacks. It's the all in one line.
Master Defenders are fine as they are. They should have good defense against powers. It's the people who can use 28 skill points to completely negate the 89 points used to get Master Powers and as a bonus, get a buff that makes them difficult to hit by anyone else. To me,that makesit kind of over powered as a single line in one of the 5 trees.
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