Jedi Archive
Thread: Evaluating the new Stealth System as a Jedi
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BukuJohnson
Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:31 am
#1
I am trying to gather all of the pieces to this new puzzle and determine if the new stealth system seems balanced for the professions the skill will fall under.
Even though it is difficult to envision all of the possible factors during the "in concept" portion of design I thought it prudent to look at as many of the individual factors as possible now so that the skill is not over or under powered after implementation.
My conclussion was that due to:
The force costs for activation and usage that a jedi will have and a non Jedi will not.
The shorter range of a Jedi versus a non Jedi.
The ability to have the stealth effect broken by a non Jedi.
The lack of a consistant first strike ability for a Jedi with this skill.
The restrictions on movement and combat actions.
The lack of high damage ranged attacks for Jedi
The New Cloak offers little to no value for a Jedi player to have it in their template.
1. Activation. If the use of this skill will have force costs for activation will there be a comparable activation cost applied to the Mind pool of the non Jedi player?
2. Movement. Movement is allowed for Rangers and Jedi while this skill is active but a snare effect is applied. Movement is not allowed for a Rifleman while this skill is active, movement will break the effect of the skill.
3. Combat. Combat actions will break the stealth effect for Rangers and Jedi. Combat actions will not break the effect for Rifleman.
4. Discovery. Entities within a certain proximity of a Rifleman under Cover and Rangers using Stealth will break the Cover effect. Stealth will not break for Jedi based on proximity, but will have an intermitent force pool drain. Rangers and Jedi under stealth will be vulnerable to detection devices that can be placed by players.
Currently Jedi have a force pool drain while this skill is active, will this drain continue at the same rate considering a snare is being applied to the skill? This is a very large factor in assessing the value of this skill for a Jedi player, all Jedi are limited in their usefulness to the extent of how much force they have available.
5. Purpose of an Alpha Strike. The purpose of an Alpha Strike ability has been defined as the ability to engage an opponent first. Jedi are constantly PVP enabled due to the player bounty system. In the player bounty system the Alpha Strike capacity is afforded to the BH whether or not he has the Stealth skill, and the Jedi does not have the option for an Alpha Strike even if they have invested in the skill. The usefulness of an Alpha Strike is diminished for a Jedi if it is not an option to use it with the same consistency as the Rifleman or Ranger.
6. Effective use of an Alpha Strike. Arguably the Alpha Strike skill is best used from range where you have the ability to not only hit your target first, but can follow it up with continued attacks before your target has the opportunity to reciprocate. Due to the cybernetic ranged arms the max range for ranged attacks are 80m for Rifles, 65m for Carbines, 50m for Pistols, and 40m for Heavy Weapons. The max range for a Force Wielder is 32m, Saberist have 1 attack with the range of 32m and the rest of their attacks are limited to 5m.
7. Compatability with other skills. Ranger and Rifleman can be coupled with another offensive tree such as BH, in order to combine high level attacks with high damage weapons. This makes the Alpha Strike a very powerful skill for them. Currently a ranged Jedi cannot equal thier non Jedi counterpart in accuracy, range, speed, defenses, and damage.
The requirement for a Jedi to use their force pool on top of mind and action costs is unbalanced when both Jedi and non Jedi now have access to most of the same type of skills. Jedi are faced with the same limitations on Health, Action, and Mind as non Jedi but are also completely dependant on a fourth pool with a very slow regeration rate that can not be buffed and can only be replenished once a day. This effectively allows a non Jedi player to maintain extended combat actions for longer periods than a Jedi player. Additionaly both ranged and Melee non Jedi players have access to weapons with a much lower SAC than Jedi players, increasing the non Jedi players ability to use more combat specials in a shorter period of time than a Jedi player is able to. This has become one of the more glaring imbalances between Jedi and non Jedi since the CU.
Personaly unless some of these fatcors change I would like to see them completely remove Cloak from the Force Wielder Discipline as it is of very linited value to a Jedi.
Buku
Naritus
Even though it is difficult to envision all of the possible factors during the "in concept" portion of design I thought it prudent to look at as many of the individual factors as possible now so that the skill is not over or under powered after implementation.
My conclussion was that due to:
The force costs for activation and usage that a jedi will have and a non Jedi will not.
The shorter range of a Jedi versus a non Jedi.
The ability to have the stealth effect broken by a non Jedi.
The lack of a consistant first strike ability for a Jedi with this skill.
The restrictions on movement and combat actions.
The lack of high damage ranged attacks for Jedi
The New Cloak offers little to no value for a Jedi player to have it in their template.
1. Activation. If the use of this skill will have force costs for activation will there be a comparable activation cost applied to the Mind pool of the non Jedi player?
2. Movement. Movement is allowed for Rangers and Jedi while this skill is active but a snare effect is applied. Movement is not allowed for a Rifleman while this skill is active, movement will break the effect of the skill.
3. Combat. Combat actions will break the stealth effect for Rangers and Jedi. Combat actions will not break the effect for Rifleman.
4. Discovery. Entities within a certain proximity of a Rifleman under Cover and Rangers using Stealth will break the Cover effect. Stealth will not break for Jedi based on proximity, but will have an intermitent force pool drain. Rangers and Jedi under stealth will be vulnerable to detection devices that can be placed by players.
Currently Jedi have a force pool drain while this skill is active, will this drain continue at the same rate considering a snare is being applied to the skill? This is a very large factor in assessing the value of this skill for a Jedi player, all Jedi are limited in their usefulness to the extent of how much force they have available.
5. Purpose of an Alpha Strike. The purpose of an Alpha Strike ability has been defined as the ability to engage an opponent first. Jedi are constantly PVP enabled due to the player bounty system. In the player bounty system the Alpha Strike capacity is afforded to the BH whether or not he has the Stealth skill, and the Jedi does not have the option for an Alpha Strike even if they have invested in the skill. The usefulness of an Alpha Strike is diminished for a Jedi if it is not an option to use it with the same consistency as the Rifleman or Ranger.
6. Effective use of an Alpha Strike. Arguably the Alpha Strike skill is best used from range where you have the ability to not only hit your target first, but can follow it up with continued attacks before your target has the opportunity to reciprocate. Due to the cybernetic ranged arms the max range for ranged attacks are 80m for Rifles, 65m for Carbines, 50m for Pistols, and 40m for Heavy Weapons. The max range for a Force Wielder is 32m, Saberist have 1 attack with the range of 32m and the rest of their attacks are limited to 5m.
7. Compatability with other skills. Ranger and Rifleman can be coupled with another offensive tree such as BH, in order to combine high level attacks with high damage weapons. This makes the Alpha Strike a very powerful skill for them. Currently a ranged Jedi cannot equal thier non Jedi counterpart in accuracy, range, speed, defenses, and damage.
The requirement for a Jedi to use their force pool on top of mind and action costs is unbalanced when both Jedi and non Jedi now have access to most of the same type of skills. Jedi are faced with the same limitations on Health, Action, and Mind as non Jedi but are also completely dependant on a fourth pool with a very slow regeration rate that can not be buffed and can only be replenished once a day. This effectively allows a non Jedi player to maintain extended combat actions for longer periods than a Jedi player. Additionaly both ranged and Melee non Jedi players have access to weapons with a much lower SAC than Jedi players, increasing the non Jedi players ability to use more combat specials in a shorter period of time than a Jedi player is able to. This has become one of the more glaring imbalances between Jedi and non Jedi since the CU.
Personaly unless some of these fatcors change I would like to see them completely remove Cloak from the Force Wielder Discipline as it is of very linited value to a Jedi.
Buku
Naritus
Message Edited by BukuJohnson on 09-21-2005 09:46 AM
antwil99
Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:45 am
#2
Very well reasoned.As a disclaimer, I should mention that I don't have this skill, nor will I ever. But with regard to your conclusion:
Why not (as developers) admit that the skill has come to be used ina wayother than orginally intended, but to allow it to continue being used inthatunanticipated way?Yes, cloak seems to be used to escape combat. However, in Force run 2& 3, the developersintentionally suppliedJedithe option to escape combat.Why notlet cloak continue in that role as well by ditching the snare requirement? As you have hinted, this would also further support the skill being usedthe waythey orginally intended.The issues that allow the skill to be abused need to be addressed of course, but that shouldbetakingplace either way.
My point is thatIsee nothing unbalancing aboutallowing Jedia2nd combat escape method forthose who prefer it as a matter of taste. Again, this is provided that the things allowing it to be exploited are remedied, as they should be in any case. Wouldn't this also be an acceptable solution? What are your thoughts about that?
Message Edited by antwil99 on 09-21-2005 11:48 AM
BukuJohnson
Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:20 am
#3
My point is that I see nothing unbalancing about allowing Jedi a 2nd combat escape method for those who prefer it as a matter of taste. Again, this is provided that the things allowing it to be exploited are remedied, as they should be in any case. Wouldn't this also be an acceptable solution? What are your thoughts about that?
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As a Master Force Wielder I personally did not use Force Cloak for the purpose of escape, though others did. I used it as a means to replenish my force pool while in combat to counter the low damage and high force costs of my Force Powers specials.
My thoughts are that a second escape method is probably not needed. If a player was using Cloak for the purpose of escape then they probably were a person with 0400 Powers and not a Master Force Wielder. Dropping Cloak for FR2 is a fairly easy switch for them to make without changing their entire play style.
The people that want to use Cloak as an escape tool still have an escape tool available in the Jedi profession, but the Master Force Wielder has no option but Master Force Wielder if they want to play a ranged class.
The issues I have with the new restrictions are that they remove the most valuable feature of the skill to a Force Wielder (Force replenishment in safety), without addressing why we needed to do that in the first place. Our Force costs are double that of a Saberist and there is nothing we can do as a player to reduce them other than taking Chanel Force and using it while cloaked. We have no speed mods in our template and unlike sabers there is no option for us to use pearls/crystals so we to take the Force Speed skill. After we have spent all of these skill points on speed and force management we are still slower than Saberists and use twice the force that they do. These speed and force management skills came at the price of defensive skills we could have otherwise taken.
Yes I agree that an Alpha Strike is a valuable skill for a rifleman or Ranger/BH etc, but an Alpha Strike for a Force Wielder is almost meaningless when we are faced with the additional defenses other Jedi have versus our attacks, and left with nearly no defenses of our own. Imagine if your opponent had the ability to reflect 95% of all rifle damage back at you every time you hit them, or that they automatically reduced your damage by an additional 70% above the value of their armor just because you were a rifleman.
Buku
Naritus
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
As a Master Force Wielder I personally did not use Force Cloak for the purpose of escape, though others did. I used it as a means to replenish my force pool while in combat to counter the low damage and high force costs of my Force Powers specials.
My thoughts are that a second escape method is probably not needed. If a player was using Cloak for the purpose of escape then they probably were a person with 0400 Powers and not a Master Force Wielder. Dropping Cloak for FR2 is a fairly easy switch for them to make without changing their entire play style.
The people that want to use Cloak as an escape tool still have an escape tool available in the Jedi profession, but the Master Force Wielder has no option but Master Force Wielder if they want to play a ranged class.
The issues I have with the new restrictions are that they remove the most valuable feature of the skill to a Force Wielder (Force replenishment in safety), without addressing why we needed to do that in the first place. Our Force costs are double that of a Saberist and there is nothing we can do as a player to reduce them other than taking Chanel Force and using it while cloaked. We have no speed mods in our template and unlike sabers there is no option for us to use pearls/crystals so we to take the Force Speed skill. After we have spent all of these skill points on speed and force management we are still slower than Saberists and use twice the force that they do. These speed and force management skills came at the price of defensive skills we could have otherwise taken.
Yes I agree that an Alpha Strike is a valuable skill for a rifleman or Ranger/BH etc, but an Alpha Strike for a Force Wielder is almost meaningless when we are faced with the additional defenses other Jedi have versus our attacks, and left with nearly no defenses of our own. Imagine if your opponent had the ability to reflect 95% of all rifle damage back at you every time you hit them, or that they automatically reduced your damage by an additional 70% above the value of their armor just because you were a rifleman.
Buku
Naritus
Message Edited by BukuJohnson on 09-21-2005 10:38 AM
MX13
Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:23 am
#4
You're not coming out to say it, but the facts as they stand speak for themselves: What could have been an opportunity to balance Cloak has become the Destruction of this ability (and as a result, making MP worthless) due to the addition of the Snare.
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