Jedi Archive

Thread: Why is no-one concerned with speed tunes?

ahood
Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:06 am
#1

Crystal/Pearl tuning. Everyone quotes damage firstly then force cost reduction. Rarely do people quote speed?


Why is this? From what I see, speed matters too. It effects DPS (when not bugged!) and it effects your cycle and recovery time in combat - it makes you more responsive as well as higher DPS.


Sure damage matters, but the difference between 0.0 and -0.29 is still noticable, equivalent to an extra 20-30 damage on a good saber. Thus, a 90dam -0.29 is better for pure damage than a 100 dam 0.0 speed.


Clearly for those with perfect 120damage, -9fc AND -0.29 pearls, it doesnt matter because they have max everything. However, for those who are trying to tune good crystals now - surely this is a critical issue!?


As has already been posted, the chance of a fair/good to tune in the top 10 damage range is 1.5% and 3.5% to tune in the top 20 damage range. Tuning FC and speed are independant, so the chance of a triple max tune using fair/good crystals/pearls is only 0.000335% (technically known as fck-all).


Perhaps this is why people only quote damage, because trying/hoping to get a top tune across 3 variables is near impossible, whereas trying to get 4x 100+ damage crystals is plausable.


Thoughts?
FlogTheJedi
Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:10 am
#2

It's just because of the speed bug. Even if your speed was 1.05, it would still attack at the base speed of the weapon, which is around 3.00



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jcesare
Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:13 am
#3

IMO the "bug" is now a "feature" and is here to stay. It's been there so long that it must be very difficult to fix. Plus, if it was fixed, the nerf bats would be pulled out.






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CPA
Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:14 am
#4

I think for the grind FC is more important than damage or speed. If you are lucky enough to get in a spin group with a goodtank, you grind 620,000 XP and get Double-bladed II. Make a Gen I saber and grind with that. I have one that is FC 7. It only does 300 Damage with elemental, but I can grind non-stop and transfer my force to the tanks.


Speed does matter, but when you can get a speed buff from doc or the Xooo line in Enhancer, you really need to focus on damage and FC. Not much else can help you there but a good pearl/crystal.





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ahood
Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:15 am
#5

So isnt the preoccupation with damage tunes a tad shortsighted for as soon (if ever) they fix the speed bug, then speed will matter and the gap between the pre-CU 4x max pearls and the post-CU 4xPolishedRatsGonads will widen?



Maxil
Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:18 am
#6

well also because there's a ton of speed ca's floating around as well, a +25 speed of ca's pretty much completely overwhelmes anything the pearls/crystals can give ya...

Personally FC is my worst enemy, as I've found somewhat decent dam pearls but the fc just blows, saber has a fc of 35 and it drains the hell out of me.



Maxil





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ahood
Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:22 am
#7


CPA,


While I agree with low FC for grinding etc, you are wrong about PvP. True damage per second does matter. Sure Enhancer 3xxx speeds you up, but it applies equally to whoever has it. So your speed 3 saber will speed up with FS2 and you'll be faster, but the chap with a speed 2 saber AND FS2 will be faster still, and thus have a higher DPS if all things being equal.


Plus there is the tactical advantage of speed in that you can get up quicker from a KD as the KD kicks in after your current execution time (of the wpn special you just did before getting KD'd) has elapsed and that time is based on the wpn speed of your wpn.


This is my point, should the speed bug/issue/feature ever be fixed, then a focus on just damage is plain stupid and the "top" tunes become even more unobtainable as you now need lucky rolls across 3 variables.
Eskie
Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:23 am
#8



ahood wrote:
Crystal/Pearl tuning. Everyone quotes damage firstly then force cost reduction. Rarely do people quote speed?
Why is this? From what I see, speed matters too. It effects DPS (when not bugged!) and it effects your cycle and recovery time in combat - it makes you more responsive as well as higher DPS.
Sure damage matters, but the difference between 0.0 and -0.29 is still noticable, equivalent to an extra 20-30 damage on a good saber. Thus, a 90dam -0.29 is better for pure damage than a 100 dam 0.0 speed.
Clearly for those with perfect 120damage, -9fc AND -0.29 pearls, it doesnt matter because they have max everything. However, for those who are trying to tune good crystals now - surely this is a critical issue!?
As has already been posted, the chance of a fair/good to tune in the top 10 damage range is 1.5% and 3.5% to tune in the top 20 damage range. Tuning FC and speed are independant, so the chance of a triple max tune using fair/good crystals/pearls is only 0.000335% (technically known as fck-all).
Perhaps this is why people only quote damage, because trying/hoping to get a top tune across 3 variables is near impossible, whereas trying to get 4x 100+ damage crystals is plausable.
Thoughts?




Simple math:

200 damage per 2 seconds is the same DPS as 100 damage per 1 second.

However, for every attack you do you also spend Force, so the higher damage / slower speed variant only has half the Force cost per damage point dealt than the lower damage / faster speed variant.



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oANUBUSo
Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:24 am
#9






jcesare wrote:
IMO the "bug" is now a "feature" and is here to stay. It's been there so long that it must be very difficult to fix. Plus, if it was fixed, the nerf bats would be pulled out.





I doubt it. seems to me a variable or a reference just needs to be renamed, same deal with the force regen on robes and tapes. robes didnt stop working until they gave it the same naming/reference as the CAs. I would have just changed the display name for regen if anything,but it seems they did more than that for whatever reason.




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ahood
Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:31 am
#10

Maxil,


Sorry, you are seriously wrong here.


For a MLS with FS melee speed, then +25 speed tapes increase your DPS by 1.44%. This is due to the deminishing returns of having 132 speed already. If you dont believe me, check the speed algorithm yourself and look at the difference.


A -0.29 speed pearl increases your DPS (assuming bug fixed) by 7.5%. Each pearl increases it by 7.5% (on a base speed 4 saber - more on a faster base saber), so having 4 increases your DPS by 30%. Because its a change to the base wpn speed and not a skill mod its a hard increase.


Work it out yourself, the difference between Jedi 1 with 4x 100-110 damage, 0.0speed pearls and Jedi 2 with 4x 120 damage -0.29speed pearls is nearly double the DPS (well, actually about 80% more).


ahood
Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:34 am
#11

Eskie, I agree with your statements, but the issue isnt a choice between high damage and low speed or high speed and low damage. Its between someone with high speed AND high damage vs someone with decent damage but only poor speed.



Maxil
Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:51 am
#12


ahood wrote:

Maxil,

Sorry, you are seriously wrong here.

For a MLS with FS melee speed, then +25 speed tapes increase your DPS by 1.44%. This is due to the deminishing returns of having 132 speed already. If you dont believe me, check the speed algorithm yourself and look at the difference.

A -0.29 speed pearl increases your DPS (assuming bug fixed) by 7.5%. Each pearl increases it by 7.5% (on a base speed 4 saber - more on a faster base saber), so having 4 increases your DPS by 30%. Because its a change to the base wpn speed and not a skill mod its a hard increase.

Work it out yourself, the difference between Jedi 1 with 4x 100-110 damage, 0.0speed pearls and Jedi 2 with 4x 120 damage -0.29speed pearls is nearly double the DPS (well, actually about 80% more).






Yeah I know, but I was factoring in the chances of actually getting decent crystals/pearls that have decent dam and that mentioned speed with the tunes we have currently. The trend seems to be dam for the pearls, then just load down all your clothing with speed and acc attatchments. Then again all kinds of other factors can come into play, as if they actually have MLS, or force speed 2.. ah well

Message Edited by Maxil on 10-05-2005 11:52 AM



Maxil





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ArranSound
Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:06 am
#13








FlogTheJedi wrote:

It's just because of the speed bug. Even if your speed was 1.05, it would still attack at the base speed of the weapon, which is around 3.00






The speed modifiers reduce the non-modified speed of the saber too. My current non-modified speed is 2.4, I'd rather have that than 3.4!


After reading the FAQ again, it appears that my non-modified speed is not being used either, but is reverting to base speed, in my case 3.4.


I wonder why this is taking so long to fix, surely it's a matter of changing some parameters in a few equations. If I was cynical, I'd guess it's because by fixing it Jedi would be deemed to be too powerfull!

Message Edited by ArranSound on 10-05-2005 10:27 AM



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