Jedi Archive
Thread: Community Letter: All we are asking for is loyalty, honesty, and communication.
Erel wrote:
Brilliant post.I wish it weren't true.
Thanks, just asking for some decency...which perhaps is asking for too much.
Panther5150 wrote:
I originally posted this in the NGE forums but since a) the devs never responded, b) I am a jedi first, & c) they are continuing to mislead the jedi regarding veteran rewards I felt that this would be an appropriate home for this post. Please discuss...
I am a Veteran player of this game although I did not join the forums for the first 3-4 months. I have not posted anything close to the scope of what I intend on producing here. This is an invitation to discuss what has transpired throughout the history of this game in an open and mature manner.
Loyalty:
As a consumer of this game for over two years I have shown incredible loyalty to this game. I have patiently awaited promised updates, fixes, and content. The loyalty the longterm base has shown you is overwhelming. No focus group can replace the hours of chat logged in our guilds regarding the state of the game. Should you have any question about this loyalty, I would invite members to review the chat logs for most major guilds. Too see the camaraderie that has developed there. People have developed an extremely friendly, upbeat, and reliable community that meet to enjoy the gaming experience with one another. We show loyalty to each other and this game in its pure form. This loyalty has a price and certain expectations that you should recognize and address.
Honesty:
The accounts to this game are paid for by people who obviously can afford to play this game. A vast number of these people are mature adults with professional lives. This is a video game. Let me repeat that, this is a video game. This is not some secret National Security concept that requires lies and misdirection. We are not infants nor are we uneducated children. We don't need some intangible parent figure lying to us for our own good. Not only can we handle the truth, we expect from a group that we are paying to deliver a product.
I never even heard the phrase stealth nerf until I played this game. The whole concept makes me ill that the developers of this game find it necessary to make changes and not inform the people that play the game. Before I hear the argument that you just can't expect us to publish every major change to this game let me head you off there. Yes we can. It takes little to no effort to post all changes that are made. It allows us as rational adults to adapt as necessary and communicate openly. Anything less is an insult to our intelligence and is unacceptable censorship.
To communicate and be dishonest to your paying base is a horrible business practice and shows moral bankruptcy. Although there are many examples of this throughout the game, I would like to highlight a few areas in which you have outright deceived the people who care.
Keep in mind that in a court of law, when a witness is sworn in to testify, they are required to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Why is this? Because people can lie with the truth. People can misrepresent facts by giving a partial and incomplete picture. When you mislead, you are being dishonest.
Old example is when the first combat upgrade was being discussed. We were promised that if we had the best weapons in the galaxy, then our weapons would still be the best when they translated over. This was an absolute falsehood. I stil have hundreds of millions of credits worth of pre-cu weapons sitting in my house that were rendered completely and utterly useless. Some of the major weaponsmiths were hit so hard they were devastated. I was unable to use any of my weapons post cu and had to replace everything with newer and better items.
A recent example was when word of this new upgrade system was leaking out to the community. People pointed out the ads in many online merchant's websites. The short response was that these were erroneous listings made by all these merchants. While that partial statement was true, it was only a marginally partial truth. It was deceptive. It was misleading. It was not complete. A complete and truthful response would be that is an erroneous listing but the actual product itself does exist and is the gateway for new players to join into the new combat system we are releasing. The obvious cover up was malicious and degrading to the subscribers of this game.
Pearl Drops, profession revamps, bug fixes, etc. These are things that were promised before the first upgrade and new upgrade. These fixes were never implemented even when promised. Instead resources were diverted...twice...to creating a new game. The whole truth was never laid before us. It is exceedingly simple, and honest, to state that we are not going to fix certain things as we are using many of our resources to develop a new game. That is the complete truth which we deserved to hear.
Finally in the honesty category is the statement in letters from the upper management that you have developed these new games (cu, cu2) based on player feedback and focus groups. It is quite simple to browse the community to get you finger on the pulse of the people here. The extremists are easy to separate from the pack and ignore. To tell us that these new games are what we asked for is far from the truth. We never asked for a new game. We simply asked for the game we loved to be fixed. Anything attributed otherwise is misleading and deceptive practices on the part of its proponents.
Communication:
Here is the crux of the problem the community has with those in charge. There is simply no meaningful communication or discourse. I have witnessed those charged with communicating to the community ignore and talk down to us and essentially treat us like bad children in dire need of good parenting. Now, while some may deserve this based on the quality of their posts, the mature community does not. You have correspondants to filter how much direct communication you have and this is a reasonable situation considering the scope of this game.
Before the first combat upgrade every board had its requests/complaints consolidated into a top 10 list. I went through many of them to see how they played out. It was amazing. The community was not demanding anything more for their professions than others. They were lists that were geared towards improved gameplay and a balanced system. To make this system enjoyable all the developers had to do was run down these lists and create what was feasible. Most of the lists were orchestrated by programmers themselves who detailed how to accomplish the proposed goals. Instead of entering into a discourse with the community or its correspondants, you instead diverted the resources necessary to fix the game and instead used them to create new ones.
You want it to be more simple? By and large, the 3 major fixes communicated before the first cu were a) armor is too effective, cap it, fix it, bring it in line with the game. b) mind damage is overwhelming the game, let us heal it or change how it is inflicted. c) buffs are overpowered and too much of a necessity which hinders me going out and playing. Obviously the CU addressed these concerns but a new gaming system was NEVER asked for in return. There were many positives about the cu but once again you failed to communicate and listen to the community. Simple fixes, not overhaul. It was clear on the boards, in the petitions, etc that what you had done was not what was necessary or requested.
Trying to play off the CU and new CU as what the community has communicated to you is a disgusting breach of ethics, confidence, and morals. Those upgrades are in no way, shape, or form what has been requested. If you entered into an honest and meaningful discourse you would see this to be true. For example, why was Gizmo ignored by every developer? His proposals to fix the jedi and bounty hunter situation were stunning. He layed out in detail a considered, fair, and exciting manner in which the system could revamped to inspire the community. I have never seen action on his ideas. Where is the communication?
You have never given us hard numbers or explanations. You have never said that the upgrade was necessary because we had (A) amount of subscribers initially, we have (B) now, we need (C) to make this work. Why do you think people leave this game? It is wonderfully diverse, complex, and engaging? It is because instead of fixing the problems, you make new and unwanted games. Why are only 1-2% of the population creature handlers or some other consolidated profession? Becuase you have ignored the proposed fixes and ignored that template to work on your new systems.
People leave this game because you have not shown loyalty. You have not been honest. You have not communicated with us. We have been all three to you. We do not want another game. If we did, there are many other games that provide first person, overhead, or other interfaces. I have never experienced anything as complex and diverse as this game. So many possibilites to create a highly personalized and individualized character. I can be all combat, part combat, all crafter. I can mix and match. I can change. It mimics the abilties to do this in real life. I do not want to be forced into one template only. I do not want to be told I cannot change once I do. I do not want to play this game on a console with children. Porting this to consoles? Really? Is that what you communication and research has told you?Do you have children? Do you know how long console games stay in a players attention span? They play it, then move on to the next big thing. This shortsightedness continues to alienate your community.
Now, the community has spoken. Make your new game and give it to the children. We are not idiots with a twitchy finger and 10 minute attention spans. We are loyal and dedicated gamers that have detrimentally relied on your promise to make this gaming experience better. Don't dumb down this game. Don't insult our intelligence by saying we need or want this. We have accepted the current CU. Just fix it and create a new game for the market you are aiming for now. Listen to the top 10 lists now. Communicate meaningfully with your correspondents as they have communicated with us. Don't lie to us. Be loyal. Don't take away the game we have dedicated ourselves to for over 2 years and replace it with KOTR or some other game designed to be played on a console.
If you are a developer and intend on responding to this, do not oversimply and further mislead us. This is a discourse. In order for it to be meaningful you should be complete in your reply and engage us. To reply partially is to be misleading and the community has had enough of that now. I also am free to address this in chat, phone, or by PM. I am not a representative of everyone but I have tried to be forthright and address the majority of voices.
Sincerely,
Trevor Oppliger
aka
Trevan Wayfinder (SWG IGN)
Excellent post. I couldn't have said it better myself. Unfortunately, like every other meaningful, intelligent, and well thought out post, this will also be ignored by the people who need to see it the most--the producers and game designers.
What's so sad is that a MMORPG with the Star Wars brand stamped on it should be a license to print money. Two years ago I would have said it was idiot-proof. But, as they say, make something idiot-proof and someone will come along with a better idiot.
I could not agree more. Everything you said was true. They should have spent their time and money fixing the top 10 list of each profession instead of ruining the game.SOE's priorityshould be to give players a reason to brag about this game!
Panther5150 wrote:
I originally posted this in the NGE forums but since a) the devs never responded, b) I am a jedi first, & c) they are continuing to mislead the jedi regarding veteran rewards I felt that this would be an appropriate home for this post. Please discuss...
I am a Veteran player of this game although I did not join the forums for the first 3-4 months. I have not posted anything close to the scope of what I intend on producing here. This is an invitation to discuss what has transpired throughout the history of this game in an open and mature manner.
Loyalty:
As a consumer of this game for over two years I have shown incredible loyalty to this game. I have patiently awaited promised updates, fixes, and content. The loyalty the longterm base has shown you is overwhelming. No focus group can replace the hours of chat logged in our guilds regarding the state of the game. Should you have any question about this loyalty, I would invite members to review the chat logs for most major guilds. Too see the camaraderie that has developed there. People have developed an extremely friendly, upbeat, and reliable community that meet to enjoy the gaming experience with one another. We show loyalty to each other and this game in its pure form. This loyalty has a price and certain expectations that you should recognize and address.
Honesty:
The accounts to this game are paid for by people who obviously can afford to play this game. A vast number of these people are mature adults with professional lives. This is a video game. Let me repeat that, this is a video game. This is not some secret National Security concept that requires lies and misdirection. We are not infants nor are we uneducated children. We don't need some intangible parent figure lying to us for our own good. Not only can we handle the truth, we expect from a group that we are paying to deliver a product.
I never even heard the phrase stealth nerf until I played this game. The whole concept makes me ill that the developers of this game find it necessary to make changes and not inform the people that play the game. Before I hear the argument that you just can't expect us to publish every major change to this game let me head you off there. Yes we can. It takes little to no effort to post all changes that are made. It allows us as rational adults to adapt as necessary and communicate openly. Anything less is an insult to our intelligence and is unacceptable censorship.
To communicate and be dishonest to your paying base is a horrible business practice and shows moral bankruptcy. Although there are many examples of this throughout the game, I would like to highlight a few areas in which you have outright deceived the people who care.
Keep in mind that in a court of law, when a witness is sworn in to testify, they are required to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Why is this? Because people can lie with the truth. People can misrepresent facts by giving a partial and incomplete picture. When you mislead, you are being dishonest.
Old example is when the first combat upgrade was being discussed. We were promised that if we had the best weapons in the galaxy, then our weapons would still be the best when they translated over. This was an absolute falsehood. I stil have hundreds of millions of credits worth of pre-cu weapons sitting in my house that were rendered completely and utterly useless. Some of the major weaponsmiths were hit so hard they were devastated. I was unable to use any of my weapons post cu and had to replace everything with newer and better items.
A recent example was when word of this new upgrade system was leaking out to the community. People pointed out the ads in many online merchant's websites. The short response was that these were erroneous listings made by all these merchants. While that partial statement was true, it was only a marginally partial truth. It was deceptive. It was misleading. It was not complete. A complete and truthful response would be that is an erroneous listing but the actual product itself does exist and is the gateway for new players to join into the new combat system we are releasing. The obvious cover up was malicious and degrading to the subscribers of this game.
Pearl Drops, profession revamps, bug fixes, etc. These are things that were promised before the first upgrade and new upgrade. These fixes were never implemented even when promised. Instead resources were diverted...twice...to creating a new game. The whole truth was never laid before us. It is exceedingly simple, and honest, to state that we are not going to fix certain things as we are using many of our resources to develop a new game. That is the complete truth which we deserved to hear.
Finally in the honesty category is the statement in letters from the upper management that you have developed these new games (cu, cu2) based on player feedback and focus groups. It is quite simple to browse the community to get you finger on the pulse of the people here. The extremists are easy to separate from the pack and ignore. To tell us that these new games are what we asked for is far from the truth. We never asked for a new game. We simply asked for the game we loved to be fixed. Anything attributed otherwise is misleading and deceptive practices on the part of its proponents.
Communication:
Here is the crux of the problem the community has with those in charge. There is simply no meaningful communication or discourse. I have witnessed those charged with communicating to the community ignore and talk down to us and essentially treat us like bad children in dire need of good parenting. Now, while some may deserve this based on the quality of their posts, the mature community does not. You have correspondants to filter how much direct communication you have and this is a reasonable situation considering the scope of this game.
Before the first combat upgrade every board had its requests/complaints consolidated into a top 10 list. I went through many of them to see how they played out. It was amazing. The community was not demanding anything more for their professions than others. They were lists that were geared towards improved gameplay and a balanced system. To make this system enjoyable all the developers had to do was run down these lists and create what was feasible. Most of the lists were orchestrated by programmers themselves who detailed how to accomplish the proposed goals. Instead of entering into a discourse with the community or its correspondants, you instead diverted the resources necessary to fix the game and instead used them to create new ones.
You want it to be more simple? By and large, the 3 major fixes communicated before the first cu were a) armor is too effective, cap it, fix it, bring it in line with the game. b) mind damage is overwhelming the game, let us heal it or change how it is inflicted. c) buffs are overpowered and too much of a necessity which hinders me going out and playing. Obviously the CU addressed these concerns but a new gaming system was NEVER asked for in return. There were many positives about the cu but once again you failed to communicate and listen to the community. Simple fixes, not overhaul. It was clear on the boards, in the petitions, etc that what you had done was not what was necessary or requested.
Trying to play off the CU and new CU as what the community has communicated to you is a disgusting breach of ethics, confidence, and morals. Those upgrades are in no way, shape, or form what has been requested. If you entered into an honest and meaningful discourse you would see this to be true. For example, why was Gizmo ignored by every developer? His proposals to fix the jedi and bounty hunter situation were stunning. He layed out in detail a considered, fair, and exciting manner in which the system could revamped to inspire the community. I have never seen action on his ideas. Where is the communication?
You have never given us hard numbers or explanations. You have never said that the upgrade was necessary because we had (A) amount of subscribers initially, we have (B) now, we need (C) to make this work. Why do you think people leave this game? It is wonderfully diverse, complex, and engaging? It is because instead of fixing the problems, you make new and unwanted games. Why are only 1-2% of the population creature handlers or some other consolidated profession? Becuase you have ignored the proposed fixes and ignored that template to work on your new systems.
People leave this game because you have not shown loyalty. You have not been honest. You have not communicated with us. We have been all three to you. We do not want another game. If we did, there are many other games that provide first person, overhead, or other interfaces. I have never experienced anything as complex and diverse as this game. So many possibilites to create a highly personalized and individualized character. I can be all combat, part combat, all crafter. I can mix and match. I can change. It mimics the abilties to do this in real life. I do not want to be forced into one template only. I do not want to be told I cannot change once I do. I do not want to play this game on a console with children. Porting this to consoles? Really? Is that what you communication and research has told you?Do you have children? Do you know how long console games stay in a players attention span? They play it, then move on to the next big thing. This shortsightedness continues to alienate your community.
Now, the community has spoken. Make your new game and give it to the children. We are not idiots with a twitchy finger and 10 minute attention spans. We are loyal and dedicated gamers that have detrimentally relied on your promise to make this gaming experience better. Don't dumb down this game. Don't insult our intelligence by saying we need or want this. We have accepted the current CU. Just fix it and create a new game for the market you are aiming for now. Listen to the top 10 lists now. Communicate meaningfully with your correspondents as they have communicated with us. Don't lie to us. Be loyal. Don't take away the game we have dedicated ourselves to for over 2 years and replace it with KOTR or some other game designed to be played on a console.
If you are a developer and intend on responding to this, do not oversimply and further mislead us. This is a discourse. In order for it to be meaningful you should be complete in your reply and engage us. To reply partially is to be misleading and the community has had enough of that now. I also am free to address this in chat, phone, or by PM. I am not a representative of everyone but I have tried to be forthright and address the majority of voices.
Sincerely,
Trevor Oppliger
aka
Trevan Wayfinder (SWG IGN)