Jedi Archive
Thread: Ranger Revamp
Phenix1050
Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:11 am
#27
NikkiDial wrote:
First let me say that I was the second master ranger in the game, only beat out by being first by just 2days. No offense...but so what? That doesn't mean you're the end-all be-all of Rangers. You could've been the first...and it wouldn't change the fact that I don't agree with your opinions. This is my third time being a ranger, So I have seen it at many different stages of progress and from different viewpoints as my skill sets had changed. I see what you want to do but you are only limiting what a ranger can do. Been a Ranger since August of last year. So far as I can see there's really only been two stages: before the 1st revamp and after. Camo kits and /areatrack are the only skills that have changed. Yes, a few skills have been changed, or given to others in their publishes...but Ranger itself has only had one BIG change...so I thnk I've seen about as much as you have. And I'm not trying to limit Ranger. I'm trying to expand it. I'm trying to give it an identity that is unique and different. You suggest we get skills from other proffession. THAT limits us to skills that are already in the game. I'm a supporter of Fred Skinners' stealth proposal. I'm a huge fan of N'Rass's modular camping proposal. I'm one of the people pushing the Outdoorsman proposal which would give us unique skills. I think that speaks agaisnt your accusation of me wanting to limit the Ranger, personally.
Im not trying to be harsh here, but you have not considered all angles. Not all rangers want to PvP. Not all rangers want to Big game hunt. Not all rangers want exactly what you want.I know that. Ieven said that myself.Multiple times. I agree, not all Rangers want PvP. But as I said, I don't JUST wantPvP. I want to be PvE centric...but with a skill set that*could* be effective in PvP. I don't want "uber"... I just want skill thattranslate across a broader range. I add multiple layers of depth so that it can satisfy as many people as possiblewithout unbalancing us as a profession. In my opinion, all you did was make us CH/BE clones. That's not depth, that's stepping on toesYou seem to want them to create a new big game hunting class and then drag it over and stamp ranger on it. No, what I want is a Ranger proffession that doesn't steal skills from other proffessions and has a unique identity. Well they already have that its called master ranger/master swordsman or any other combination of combat skills.
You want to PvP then pick up fencer, rifleman or TKMto go along with your skills sets. Thanks, but I'd rather have stealth Ranger much like Fred's idea. A unique PvP ability that could be effective both in PvE and PvP. Sure add in state effect bonuses, but you have to remember it wont be alot of them since it has to be balanced with any other class that might take up ranger. Add in a general damage bonus also but it probably wont be alot since other professions could use it also. Giving us a new weapon set that is all around good for everything though is impossible. That is why I picked the simple answer of just giving us animals which is inline with what a ranger should be and has been in other games. But this game HAS a proffession which is "inline" with that idea. It's called CH and it's a seperate skillset. At the same time I didnt want to take away from the creature handlers so I made it small enough to add to their profession and ours in an equal manner. a huge bonus in creature level is a BIG subtraction from CH. It's part of their uniqueness. I don't want to steal from any other proffessions the way that other proffessions have taken from ours.
You say we should be more than just harvestors you forget that we ARE harvestors and throw out ideas that let us harvest other items more effeciently. No, we are NOT just harvestors. and if we ARE, then I want that changed. I don't disagree that we should have larger harvest bonuses. I'm a HUGE fan of better harvesting. I even said that we should be able to harvest multiple times and have a /harvestall option. That's more efficient. What i SAID was that I don't want to move all our hunting bonuses into the top 4 boxes. Then say that harvesting all three items on an animal is a better idea. Well its not a better idea. I have never wanted all three items from an animal. When I kill something to harvest its because I want a specific resource and the rest of it would be no more than grind material for another profession. Not true at all. A few weeks ago Datho leathery hide and Datho carnivore meat were both EXCEPTIONAL. Peopel were buying both as fast as they could. I would have been twice as effective if I could have harvested multiple times or multiple resources. And if everyone had this ability it would make our profession worse. Not only that it doesnt solve the problem with the inability to effectively gather eggs/milk/shellfish/fish and anything else that is hardly available.As I said...fishing is the only of these skillsets Iuse.And I hardly ever sell the stuff. If we could do it more effectively, sure, I might...but probably not. Even so, this isn't thebig issue in my mind. A boost to fishing will not make me enjoy the proffession that much more. Most of these items sell for 200cpu ++++ And still no one wants to go gather them. That means its broken and it only makes sense to put themeans to harvest them in our skill set some how.
Once again I am not trying to be harsh so dont misunderstand. With your idea of big game hunting you wanted to throw away alot of it. What I wanted to "throw away" were the ideas bringing other proffessions skills into ours. I wouldn't like it if Bounty Hunters got /areatrack because that's a RANGER skill. I'm pretty sure a lot of BE's and CH's would feel the same about another proffession poaching on theis skill set. I DIDN'T WANT TO THROW AWAY YOUR IDEAS ABOUT FISHING, MILKING,ETC. I just don't think that they're as big as issues as combat effectiveness and a Ranger identity. I have no problem with us getting these skills, but there are plenty of skills that I would put before these. Basically just grab a mission and point me in the direction I need to go. Well that would be terribly unbalancing with people just creating mission after mission of krayts and gorax and other things. The devs wont give us anything like that. We need to pay to play in whatever we do. You want big game hunting you will have to come up with a system that consumes 15-30minutes of our time to justify the free spawn. Um..how about 2 seconds. IT WAS PROMISED TO US A YEAR AGO!! How can the 2nd Ranger in the game not know that TH promised us the /track skill during our last revamp?!?
Trust me when I say I want whats best for this profession. And the only way you will fix it in the longterm is either scrap the whole idea as it is now and make a new combat class I don't want a combat class. I want a hunting class. You know...like we're called in the game. I want to get big harvests...but I don't want to just "tag along" for the hunt. like you want or we try to incorporate everyones ideas on what a ranger should be without unbalancing it as a class. Because more people want more than just another pvp template again...just to be PERFECTLY CLEAR since you've misquoted me about 8 times now: I don't want a PvP class. I simply want skills that can be used in PvP. /areatrack is one example of a skill that, when properly applied, is usefull in PvP. Stealth is another good example. Modular Camping. A Ranger weapon that would be more effective in PvE, but not useless in PvP. I don't want a PvP skill set. I want us to be the Anti-Bounty hunter. They are designed for PvP...but they can use an LLC to hunt big game. I want the opposite. We should be designed for PvE, but should be able to use our skills in PvP. or just another pve template. What other PvE template? We should be THE PvE template!!Rangers can be crafters, hunters, killers, tamers(umm...that's the CH's job), cloners (what?!?)and many other things with their extra skill set points but they cant be all of that or even half that all in one profession. You have to lay the framework and let everyone choose the way they want to build their character.
There is alot more I could say, but Ill stop here for now.
I think you must have read about half of what I said because you didn't understand what I meant at all. I liked a few of your ideas. The only ones I have real issue with are the ideas that steal skills from other proffessions. The others I just view as second-tier skills. Except the harvesting bonus. I agree we should get a bigger bonus. I just think that it should be distributed the way it is...not put in the top 4 boxes. In what way does camping XP make you a better harvester? How about trapping? Makes no sense. Just keep the bonuses where they are, but make them bigger and give a huge boost to harvesting at master. Simple enough. The multiple harvest/harvest all would also be a great addition at master Ranger.
By the way, you don't have to repost every time you have a new idea. You have an edit button so you can just add on to your old posts...
see?
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Message Edited by Phenix1050 on 07-26-2004 03:16 PM
Calculus_Entropy
Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:11 am
#28
Phenix1050 wrote:
Okay, the outdoorsman isn't "new" but it's still the combined efforts of dozens of Ranger, many who have been here since last year.
Why did that strike me as funny...? I picture the devs saying, "LOOK OUT! There are dozens of angry Rangers out there!"
NikkiDial
Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:59 am
#29
Example 1: Give me a weapon that I can call my own in my own tree! Ohh ya I still get all the other skills I wanted also.
Template #1 Master Scout Master Ranger Master Creature Handler Medic 4140
Template #2 Master Scout Master Ranger Master Medic Doctor 0340
Basically You have made us like everyone else. Only with a more powerful weapon against creatures and more broken with the CH template. You want a weapon in your own tree so you can dabble in other trees???? But you dont want anyone dabbling in your tree??? I dont understand that mindset, I think youve been in the woods too long.
Also when I stated I was the second master ranger in the game I was only trying to show that I have seen the profession from the beggining and under many different templates. It had nothing to do with me being all superior and gets to make the decisions for the whole ranger class until someone else who had ranger before me came along.
Now I have reread all the post you wanted me to read.
Modular camping is a bit gimmicky and sorta overpowered. Right now they are basically portable cities and GCW outposts. Also sinceyou cant fight while a camp is deployed, unless they have changed that since I was last a ranger, you would just sit their why everyone else had fun.If you want to make camps better its pretty simple increase the healing rates by tons for the better camps. Like in the area of being completely healed withen 5 minutes. Have the best camp capable of supporting a dancer/musician so that they can heal battle fatigue in the field. This will give dancers/musicians a chance to go out and have fun away from the cantina. BTW they can do this now with the portable camp I like to call the medium generic house, so why not just go all the way and let rangers do it also??? Make it so camps dont break in battle. Give camps mission terminals, preferably mission terminals that spawn different types of creatures than the regular ones. That would be a good start in fixing camping. In a way that would make them useful again.
Damage Modifiers, I always said these would be a better solution, but would need to be balanced.
Outdoorsman, huh???? Didnt I mention the gallop, and calm abilities and you said no way they belong to creature handlers??? They mention it here also but you support it fully. Conceal isnt that a rifleman ability??? camoflauge umm isnt that just stealth, the skill that will never make it to game??? Tracking, didnt the devs state that area increases are not possible because of database issues, because they would have to load all these extra creatures onto everyones computer??? I have nothing against these ideas, but they are doing the same thing I am which is putting other peoples skills into our own. So why should it be any different then when I do it???? O ya because of the stick go boom factor. They have it I dont.
Stealth will never make it into game.
As far as the identity thread goes I think I already mentioned many of their points in my original post. Better terrain negotition I said perma burst. Camo does not break EVER! To hit modifier isnt good give me more damage instead. Multi harvesting, well I would rather have more harvesting and farms. Ranger camps are around till you log out, I think I said something similiar with them not breaking in combat. Improve traps, yes I said that 
i think I have tried very much to add flavor to the profession. The only difference we have is you want a Weapon skill so you can dabble elsewhere and I want outside skills so others find worth in dabbling here. Sue me but I think your focus narrows the profession and mine opens it up to others.
Phenix1050
Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:07 pm
#30
NikkiDial wrote:
Why is a pet any different a weapon than a new bow?cause it's a PET. which already has aProffesssion designed to useit. It will deal the same damage it will act as a tank, so why should we take away from the combat classes to giv eyou a weapon of your own? See what I am saying here? Its not unique to the class its just new artwork.So you're saying a t-21 is the same thing as a vibroknucker, just with different artwork? No...it's not. It' a different balance of range, power, accuracy and severaldifferent factors. If you want something new then why dont we give rangers and weapons smiths a quest that would allow the weaponsmith to ultimately put a SKIN onto your chosen weapon class' weapon so that it has a unique ranger feel??? ummmm...I'm just gonna hope that you're trying to be rhetorical.This way you get the same versitility you have now and have your unique look? No...because it's not a new skill set. How are you not seeing that a new weapon has to take into accout several important factors. This weapon would be more powerful against creatures. Perhaps it could be fitted (as I believe Owen-Lars suggested) with a poison/DOT attack. See how when you actually look at it...the Ranger weapons looks NOTHING like any other weapon? Gee..that would make it....unique without being silly. I only offered the pet idea because it made the most sense instead of gutting the entire profession to add weapon branches to the tree.IT MAKES NO SENSE!!!! NONE!!! Rangers aren't CH's!!!You can live in nature without being able to tame an animal. Heck you could do both!!!!that's true...
Come on dont twist my words about tracking, it does noone any good to play dumb games, since I am here to try and HELP. Not shove anything down your throats. You specifically pointed out an idea of tracking that TH had mentioned. I was referring to my idea of how we should hunt biggame prey. You want to see no-cost big-game hunting and I was offering a small time cost for big game hunting.
As for dabbling, isnt that what a support class does at times?? I don't WANT to be a frigging support class. Not in the sense that you mean it. In PvE, I dont want to be sitting on the rear line waiting to pull out my uber harvest skills once the combat peeps have killed a critter. In PvE we should not be support. you want to sit on your hands when the hunting is being done, that's fine...but I think a lot of Rangers want to be able to do more than tha. It offers alot of different skillsat are not only good to the strict ranger but also to dabblers??? I am offering depth to a few more classes along with our own, because YES there are more rangers out there then just biggame hunters. And we have the ability to dable in other professions just like they can into ours, thats why each step should be worth the investment. I never said you cant add in combat modifiers either, I said you need to be very careful when you do because of the dabbling effect it can create for everyone involved.
Basically you want a standalone combat class or biggame hunter as you call it. So how does that help us in any way except make us another stick go boom class? Ummm...let's see...improved creature harvests, tracking, trapping, modular camping...yeah I can see how that looks exactly like the template for all the other combat classes. We lose all uniqueness then. AND we still get to dable in other professions on top of it. Why not just dable to begin with and and very good and broad reaching support skills that benifits everyone? Because if Rangers can have a hunting weapon, they wouldn't always be forced into mastering a combat proffession. That opens up skill points. That makes us able to diversify. Branch out. Choose our own path. See what I mean here??? No. obviouisly I don't. I don't see how us getting skills from other profs makes us "deeper" You complain that we would just become a stick-go-boom class....then you say that pets are just another weapon....they you say to give us pets...which would....give us a weapon with different art. Exactly what you said you didn't want. So you're simply being hypocritical and fail to see that we both want new weapons. You, however, want to give us a weapon that rightly belongs to another class. I'm suggesting giving us something unique. no matter how you look at it we are all dabblers because that is how the game was designed and we each make our own uniqueness from there.
The problem with Ranger is not the uniquesness factor, but the fact our skills arent worth the cost.Thats why you add alot of little things across the board to make the profession more of a compliment to a players game.BINGO! you nailedit there! Theskills arent' worth the cost. Why? Because as the wilderness experts we are outpowered in the wilderness. That makes no sense. Sooo....if we get some innovative ideas that aren't cloned from others skills, we can make the skillpoints worth it. Now dont get me wrong I think the same thing should be done to Squad leader. Basically but have it more tweaked to group pvp and some pve instead of mostly pve and a little pvp like I suggested for ranger. That's what I want. PvE for Ranger, but with the potential for PvP. The only difference is that you want CH skills. I want Ranger skills. Just dont be afraid to admit that you are a dabble I am NOT a dabble. lol. I go for Mastering proffessions since that's the way they are most effective. I'd rather be Master Ranger/Master Rifle that Master Ranger, Rifle 4/0/40, Carbine 0/4/0/4.Its not a bad thing, cause that is what the game was designed around.
You assume everyone dabbles, like you do. Sure, I may throw a few skillpoints down when I have them left over...but a dabbler is a person like the BH's...who took the tracking tree from Ranger and that's it. But even then, they had to SPEND THE SKILLPOINTS to dabble. Giving us a skill from another proffession is stealing from them if we don't have to spend those skillpoints.
Let me give you an example: How popular do you think it would be among the Rifleman forum if Carbiners got a huge boost to rifle speed in their skillset? Or the ability to wield the t-21? or any of the skills that rifleman has? Then consider that that is EXACTLY what you are proposing.
Phenix1050
Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:28 pm
#31
Look, we've been going back and forth. In the end, it's not up to either on of us. All I ask is that you, who says that you were the second Ranger, who has read a lot of the forums, read some of the most recent ideas coming out of Ranger (okay, the outdoorsman isn't "new" but it's still the combined efforts of dozens of Ranger, many who have been here since last year.
Here are the ones that I think are most telling of where Rangers want to go. Again, I could be wrong. But look at it this way: there aren't many posts with the ideas you propose...and there are many with the ones I am supporting.
Many interesting discussions in this Identity Thread
these are just a few examples of forward thinking in Rangers. Ideas that focus on making us more than we are.
If you can find support for your ideas in the minds/words of other Rangers, I'd be more than happy to discuss it with you. Until then, I choose to stand by my points. I think I've said all I can about your ideas and our little back-and-forth reparte's are doing little for the community as a whole, except to make us seem like a bunch of under-disciplined children. This is not a comment directly at you, but rather our actions together. Until we can get a few other Ranger opinions, there is little more we can say to one another, but I welcome any threads you can use to show that other Rangers have been asking for these sorts of changes. If they exist, I haven't seent them and I welcome the addition of new material to our discussions.
GoldMemberBria
Tue Jul 27, 2004 3:20 pm
#32
The way I read your ideas, they are neither "easy" to implement (require creating brand new game systems like farms and such) nor do they "fix" ranger (which are the two things that you state this proposal is supposed to do)in terms of what the ranger community thinks are their biggest problems.
Other than that your proposal is just fine, lol.
Calculus_Entropy
Tue Jul 27, 2004 3:31 pm
#33
One thing I would like tomention is, there are no 'easy' fixes in the Devs eyes (it finally dawned on me that this is true). Basically some things are 'less hard' to implement than others. Carry on...
Nemo0
Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:11 pm
#34
I stand mostly behind Phenix in this argument (I still think traps should be our weapon as a proper attack weapon would take some of the diversity out of Ranger skill sets). And NikkiDial, I would highly recommend you think about what you are posting. This game is not static. Things can and will change. What the Devs say can't even be trusted as fact for 5 minutes, much less 6 months (or however long ago the stealth blow off happened). They do their best but MMORPGs change. Just because the Devs say something does not mean that the discussion is over. When the time comes, I will still fight for NPC/PC trapping even though Green Marine said it would not happen. The same is true for Stealth and any other skill that I feel Rangers deserve. Anything is possible if the Devs try hard enough. Calc said there are no easy fixes (and I agree). I argue that there are no impossible fixes either.
With your proposed skill changes, you do not make Ranger a support profession. You (largely) make Ranger an enhancement profession. The only enhancement "professions" that should exist are the Force Sensitive skill trees. Right now, Ranger is mostly an enhancement profession (for Scout). I (and many other Rangers) don't want this to be the final fate for Rangers.
As for Stealth, I direct you to the annoying bug that makes people occasionally disappear. This alone proves that it is technologically possible to remove someone from view, radar, and even group area notification (while they notice nothing different at all). The problem is not a technical one but a balance issue. Stealth is powerful. But no more so than buffs and similar skills. It is all a matter of balance.
Phenix1050
Wed Jul 28, 2004 12:41 am
#35
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
Phenix1050 wrote:
Okay, the outdoorsman isn't "new" but it's still the combined efforts of dozens of Ranger, many who have been here since last year.
Why did that strike me as funny...? I picture the devs saying, "LOOK OUT! There are dozens of angry Rangers out there!"
And all 35 of them are protesting! what are we gonna do? what are we gonna do?!?
LOL calcI hadn't even thought of it that way. It was, as I remember, the work of the community as a whole. However, there were several prominant names on there during the original writing. Including you, I believe, Calc.That's what I meant to imply, not that there were 24 or so of usat that time. Although that figure may betrue about now. LOL. But yeah, there was a lot of support for the outdoorsman back then, and yes, I am still working on the update. I should have it out sometime in the next week or two.
By the way-- who was it who wrote the Ranger story-- the story about the Rebel soldier saved by Imperial Rangers? I'm an idiot when it comes to names (hey shygirl, can I borrow your sign to smack myself a few times??) and I'd like to get that persons help when it came to writing the story part of the Outdoorsman 2.1. Also, I will more than likely be sending a few advanced copies via Forum mail to some people to see what they think before I offer it up to the community at large. So check your mailboxes if you post here often and I've made comments about your ideas...you're probably on the list.
As for the main part of this thread (my hijacking XP is maxed out) I'd just like to stand by my comments before. I'd like to see whether or not there is support for Nikki's ideas, or whether people think that having CH and BE skills is not the proper direction for Rangers. If you support his ideas, please post, since without imput, none of us will learn what Rangers as a whole want from their proffession.
NikkiDial
Wed Jul 28, 2004 2:22 pm
#36
Take out the Bonus to creature Handling and the Bonus to to BE. Now what is your complaint?
Stealth will NEVER happen
Example:
Template........1......nahhh....ALLL
Ranger XXXX and ANY other Combat Profession. Weeeee invisiible gank squads and everyone is a ranger. Like I said it will never happen because it has to many potential uses for abuse. Just look back at the astromech stats from OCT. 20th of last year.
Elite Professions
8.66%Novice Creature Handler
6.76%Novice Pistoleer
2.58%Novice Bounty Hunter
2.11%Novice Doctor
2.01%Novice Merchant
1.98%Novice Rifleman
1.86%Novice Smuggler
1.80%Novice Ranger
1.68%Novice Architect
1.55%Novice Commando
1.53%Novice Weaponsmith
1.47%Novice Teras Kasi Artist
1.47%Novice Carbineer
1.08%Novice Combat Medic
1.00%Novice Tailor
0.98%Novice Bio Engineer
0.97%Novice Dancer
0.93%Novice Armorsmith
0.91%Novice Droid Engineer
0.71%Novice Musician
0.61%Novice Swordsman
0.46%Novice Squad Leader
0.35%Novice Fencer
0.31%Novice Image Designer
0.30%Novice Chef
0.25%Novice Pikeman
0.00%Novice Jedi Padawan
They Considered CH to be too powerful because of how many more people had it than any other profession. Do you really think they will introduce a skill that every other person in the galaxy will HAVE to get just to stay competitive???? Just think about it logically.
The only way stealth can work is if SOE introduce master professions or the trees after elite. That is the only way to insure all points are spent in a way to insure it doesnt get abused.
BTW farms are nothing new, its just a regular harvestor.
GoldMemberBria
Wed Jul 28, 2004 3:03 pm
#37
The thing about dabbling in CH is it's almost "free" (skill point wise). Anybody who does any hunting is already going to have novice scout and very likely some hunting and some exploration, so you essentially get the novice CH box almost for "free". Not ranger though. Even after they add all kinds of cool stuff to ranger (and hopefully they will) it's gonna be a tough sell to a lot of people. Your average l33t TKA/rifleman or whatever may very much desire some stuff in the ranger tree, but even assuming that he already had exploration 4 and hunting 4 (which are actually useful) he's gonna have to sink an additional 40 skill point and get virtually nothing in return (survival and hunting) just to get the novice ranger box, and that's a lot of combat skills to drop!
NikkiDial
Wed Jul 28, 2004 4:14 pm
#38
give them stealth and every PvPer in the game will drop 40points to get stealth.
You will see invisible gank squads 100x worse than what is DAOC. Thats for those
people that have played with other stealth games
Phenix1050
Wed Jul 28, 2004 5:13 pm
#39
you never know what might happen. That's the great thing about MMORPG's....they shift to meet the customers demand. Maybe if a few less people said "nahh, they'll never give it to you, stop asking" and actually discussed the finer points of the stealth proposal, we could get it done. It's not impossible to code and it's not overpowering. Even if you say you get a gank squad of 100 people (not gonna happen) all of whom happen to be a high level Rangers (remember stealth isn't at novice, so far as I remember the suggestion) and they're giving up skillpoints. Stealth dissappears in combat. It's advantage lies in being able to recon effectively, making us a good advance troop. Any l33t hunter who took stealth to be uber would be stupid, since that's many skill points spent on a skill that has a one-time effectiveness. you engage, you lose stealth. end of story. Most people who take up PvP would rather spend those skillpoints on another proffession that might give them combat bonuses. Stealth is a good idea, and if you stop and constructively criticize rather than simply dismiss, you might get enamored with the idea. As it is, you're only argument is "the devs won't do it". That's like saying that a crimial is innocent simply becaue he said he didn't do it. Oftentimes, plans change with the devs. This game already has the potential for stealth, its all a matter of presenting it in a way that's congruent with the overall balance of the game.