Jedi Archive
Thread: Thinking outside the box
Problem:
Rangers need some sort of offensive combat mods to be effective.
Current Solution:
Force a Ranger to have a ranged prereq so that they can get ranged mods in the tree.
Outside the box solution:
Give us something other than ranged accuracy and speed that will give a similar benefit without requiring a specific weapon class. We don't have to have speed and accuracy mods to be competitive (just look at the MBH/MCM combos). Other solutions are out there.
Problem:
A second scout line is just going to be a skill point sink in PvP and NPC combat.
Current Solution:
"Force" Rangers into a specific form of combat (i.e. ranged) that they might rather not have.
Outside the box solution:
Allow current traps to work on everything. Give Rangers an exploration/trapping prereq. Then move the most powerful traps into Ranger (as a snare/root at x4xx in a novice profession seems a bit strong). Useful skills are worth having. Making a skill useful is a better choice than forcing people to take up a skill that they won't find useful. Also, Scout traps really could use some work anyway. This would also give Ranger some in combat skills that are useful instead of only out of combat skills.
Problem:
We will be "gimped" if we don't have XXXX in our template.
Current Solution:
Build a template so that you can get XXXX in your template.
Outside the box solution:
Make it so that a template without XXXX in it is viable. Also consider grouping to make up for your weaknesses. Such things need to be done for the health of a MMORPG anyway.
Problem:
The vision of Ranger seems entirely different than the old vision of Ranger.
Current Solution:
Fight about who has the right vision of Ranger.
Outside the box solution:
Come up with a description that melds the old vision and the new vision into something both groups can agree on while still keeping the same skill set up the Devs are currently planning on (for example, a Ranger can be termed as a wilderness expert who has mastered the ability to avoid entanglements and prepare ambushes and is now expanding those skills, both in the wilderness and more populated areas). A similar thing prompted the original outdoorsman (i.e. the Devs said that we were meant to be creature only but the community didn't agree that we should be limited to such a small portion of the game).
Nemo0 wrote:
Let's try to think a little outside the box. A little work could make this Revamp just a little better for everyone.
Problem:
Rangers need some sort of offensive combat mods to be effective.
Current Solution:
Force a Ranger to have a ranged prereq so that they can get ranged mods in the tree.
Outside the box solution:
Give us something other than ranged accuracy and speed that will give a similar benefit without requiring a specific weapon class. We don't have to have speed and accuracy mods to be competitive (just look at the MBH/MCM combos). Other solutions are out there.
Currently we're in a tough spot for arguing this point just because we lack enough testing to explain whether or not a lack of combat mods is detrimental. Personally I'd like to think that the traditional combat mods are being left out because some sort of mods related to the new trapping stuff - mines and such - will balance as a comparable replacement.
Problem:
A second scout line is just going to be a skill point sink in PvP and NPC combat.
Current Solution:
"Force" Rangers into a specific form of combat (i.e. ranged) that they might rather not have.
Outside the box solution:
Allow current traps to work on everything. Give Rangers an exploration/trapping prereq. Then move the most powerful traps into Ranger (as a snare/root at x4xx in a novice profession seems a bit strong). Useful skills are worth having. Making a skill useful is a better choice than forcing people to take up a skill that they won't find useful. Also, Scout traps really could use some work anyway. This would also give Ranger some in combat skills that are useful instead of only out of combat skills.
In the past I've suggested having the trapping modifier decide whether a trap could or could not affect a humanoid target. For example, say you have a Trapping mod of anything less than 50. You can throw a trap at a humanoid but there is 0 chance it would land. As the mod progresses above 50 the chance of landing a trap on a humanoid increases. This would require Trapping Mods to remain in Ranger and would simply "unlock" traps as viable PvP & NPC targeting weapons once a player reached a certain mod value. Scouts couldn't trap humanoids, but Rangers would be able to. <-- totally hypothetical
Nemo0 wrote:
Let's try to think a little outside the box. A little work could make this Revamp just a little better for everyone.
Problem:
Rangers need some sort of offensive combat mods to be effective.
Current Solution:
Force a Ranger to have a ranged prereq so that they can get ranged mods in the tree.
Outside the box solution:
Give us something other than ranged accuracy and speed that will give a similar benefit without requiring a specific weapon class. We don't have to have speed and accuracy mods to be competitive (just look at the MBH/MCM combos). Other solutions are out there.
Problem:
A second scout line is just going to be a skill point sink in PvP and NPC combat.
Current Solution:
"Force" Rangers into a specific form of combat (i.e. ranged) that they might rather not have.
Outside the box solution:
Allow current traps to work on everything. Give Rangers an exploration/trapping prereq. Then move the most powerful traps into Ranger (as a snare/root at x4xx in a novice profession seems a bit strong). Useful skills are worth having. Making a skill useful is a better choice than forcing people to take up a skill that they won't find useful. Also, Scout traps really could use some work anyway. This would also give Ranger some in combat skills that are useful instead of only out of combat skills.
Problem:
We will be "gimped" if we don't have XXXX in our template.
Current Solution:
Build a template so that you can get XXXX in your template.
Outside the box solution:
Make it so that a template without XXXX in it is viable. Also consider grouping to make up for your weaknesses. Such things need to be done for the health of a MMORPG anyway.
Problem:
The vision of Ranger seems entirely different than the old vision of Ranger.
Current Solution:
Fight about who has the right vision of Ranger.
Outside the box solution:
Come up with a description that melds the old vision and the new vision into something both groups can agree on while still keeping the same skill set up the Devs are currently planning on (for example, a Ranger can be termed as a wilderness expert who has mastered the ability to avoid entanglements and prepare ambushes and is now expanding those skills, both in the wilderness and more populated areas). A similar thing prompted the original outdoorsman (i.e. the Devs said that we were meant to be creature only but the community didn't agree that we should be limited to such a small portion of the game).
Great stuff as always Nem0. Thank you.
WildBil2Me wrote:
Nemo0 wrote:
Let's try to think a little outside the box. A little work could make this Revamp just a little better for everyone.
Problem:
Rangers need some sort of offensive combat mods to be effective.
Current Solution:
Force a Ranger to have a ranged prereq so that they can get ranged mods in the tree.
Outside the box solution:
Give us something other than ranged accuracy and speed that will give a similar benefit without requiring a specific weapon class. We don't have to have speed and accuracy mods to be competitive (just look at the MBH/MCM combos). Other solutions are out there.Currently we're in a tough spot for arguing this point just because we lack enough testing to explain whether or not a lack of combat mods is detrimental. Personally I'd like to think that the traditional combat mods are being left out because some sort of mods related to the new trapping stuff - mines and such - will balance as a comparable replacement.
.....
I'm not saying that we should get no combat mods here. Some combat mods will probably be necessary. I'm trying to say that we don't necessarily need to get ranged and/or melee accuracy and/or speed. In the linked thread, the poster had the idea of giving us an innate critical hit chance. Combining that with something like an innate armor ignoring chance would probably give us similar attack power to the standard accuracy and speed mods but it would be a unique set of mods that did not tie us specifically to a ranged or melee skill set.
Message Edited by Nemo0 on 09-24-2005 04:00 AM
Nemo0 wrote:
I'm not saying that we should get no combat mods here. Some combat mods will probably be necessary. I'm trying to say that we don't necessarily need to get ranged and/or melee accuracy and/or speed. In the linked thread, the poster had the idea of giving us an innate critical hit chance. Combining that with something like an innate armor ignoring chance would probably give us similar attack power to the standard accuracy and speed mods but it would be a unique set of mods that did not tie us specifically to a ranged or melee skill set.
Message Edited by Nemo0 on 09-24-200504:00 AM
I hear ya,
just wanted to add my own thoughts on a few points. 
After some thinking about the vision part of this I began to wonder whether it would really be that difficult to meld the two sides of the Ranger that we all seem to be arguing about.
Tracking is going away period, there's nothing we can do about that. Traps are staying and I think as long as there are creatures in this game there should be an elite profession to hunt them. There are many para-military types of Rangers that are "guerilla's". They specialize in jungle warfare, and hit and run tactics. There should be some happy medium between the two versions of Ranger's being presented.
"Mao Tse Tung envisaged a progressive effort to create regular forces while the guerrillas waged their hit-and-run tactics. At a later phase, guerrillas and regulars would coordinate their campaigns against the opponent. Both styles of fighting, both organizations, were needed to win." - Reader's Companion to Military History
I like WildBil's trap modifiers idea. If we left the basic profession of Ranger intact and removed the Tracking tree, hypothetically we could keep the creature harvesting mod's intact in the Stealth and Subterfuge line. Yes it sounds odd, but the existing creature mod's are in tracking so...*shrug*....
I kind of talked myself into a wall here lol. I had a train of thought and I lost...I'll come back and edit it in a few. This could be a start though?
I believe the Dev's are making Ranger non-creature centric, therefore we shouldn't have harvesting mods. Plus all of that has been moved to Scout, so keep master Scout to continue in the Outdoorsman vein.
I just hope that they don't make it so that you need Carbine xp to advance through Ranger as they did with Pistol xp and Squad Leader.
WeiQuin wrote:
I believe the Dev's are making Ranger non-creature centric, therefore we shouldn't have harvesting mods. Plus all of that has been moved to Scout, so keep master Scout to continue in the Outdoorsman vein.
Of course, if everything stays as it is right now, keeping both MRanger and MScout in your template effectively forces you to take Carbineer, because otherwise the skillpoints won't be enough. ^_^"
WeiQuin wrote:
I believe the Dev's are making Ranger non-creature centric, therefore we shouldn't have harvesting mods. Plus all of that has been moved to Scout, so keep master Scout to continue in the Outdoorsman vein.
I just hope that they don't make it so that you need Carbine xp to advance through Ranger as they did with Pistol xp and Squad Leader.
Well, I agree, but that would be a more viable option, to my thinking, than forcing us to take Carbine IV or have to Master Carbines to be able to get up thru Ranger. At least by making it RSIV and then making Ranger take a particular type of XP (Carbine, Rifle, whatever)... that matches up with the precedent established with SL and BH (pistol XP or pistol/carbine/rifle/investigation XP). And it means that I could still stay a master rifleman or master pistoleer and use those specials with a non-carbineer-certed (CL-cert-only) carbine. It's still an inelegant solution, and it doesn't address melee rangers as well, but I think we're already being set on a path that is going to favor ranged vs melee (From what little the devs HAVE said). At least this would allow folks to master Ranger without HAVING to master carbines or suffer a big skillpoint drain for nothing.
I'd also favor moving us to a Trapping IV prereq in scout, for several reasons:
- No other profession needs it, so it doesn't run a risk of "oh, then XXX can take the same lines as ranger and get an unfair advantage"
- It matches up nicely with the Ranger trapping line as a pre-req
- Most Rangers will likely keep the Exploration line no matter what for the TN bonuses; However, if TN is granted in Ranger and can get a Ranger to a TN of 50, then we COULD drop the exploration line without any real downside to TN (unless the devs are chaging how TN over 50 works)
Alternately, I could also see keeping the Hunting IV line. It's less clear how that would translate to Ranger, unless the darts and bio sigs and beacons in our trap line are to eventually become the replacement for tracking ; then it would make sense to take hunting, creature knowledge etc since we'd be tracking them. It's a much weaker arguement than Trapping IV is tho. It might allow for some nice benefits for the Ranger / CH / <Master Combat> Ranger tho. 
SpiritWolf448 wrote:
WeiQuin wrote:
I believe the Dev's are making Ranger non-creature centric, therefore we shouldn't have harvesting mods. Plus all of that has been moved to Scout, so keep master Scout to continue in the Outdoorsman vein.
Of course, if everything stays as it is right now, keeping both MRanger and MScout in your template effectively forces you to take Carbineer, because otherwise the skillpoints won't be enough. ^_^"And that is clearly a very limiting thing, imho.SW448
This is one of the problems I have with the new prereqs. If you want to stay as a Master Ranger/Master Scout post revamp, your last profession will either need to be a Scout based profession, a Scout/Marksman hybrid, or a Carbineer (you can't even go for a Master Elite Crafter or Master Bio Engineer). Currently, a Master Ranger/Master Scout can choose almost any other profession (we are only restricted from the non scout based hybrids).
So, currently a Master Scout/Master Ranger can't have:
Master Commando
Master Smuggler
Master Combat Medic
With the Exploration/Carbines cert, a Master Scout/Master Ranger can only take:
Master Carbineer
Master Bounty Hunter
Master Squad Leader
Master Creature Handler
Personally, this seems like a very limiting choice. Either you give up skills you have had with Ranger for a very long time (i.e. Master Scout), you give up on Ranger, or you pick from a very limited subset of the skills you can currently choose from.