Jedi Archive
Thread: [Being Jedi Statement]: Power for Penalty vs Playing an Exile
Cyrex
Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:00 am
#14
One and All,
Well I wear two hats in this debate, lets look at the real wolrd and see how or what a Jedi is . A Jedi is part Samurai, part Knight of the round table, part shaolin monkand part Texas ranger. They're a hodge podge of cultures and philosophies that GL combined and came up with his vision of a glatical marshall or referee.A group that keep peace and justice in sofar as they could due to the fact that is could take up to twenty years to properly train a Jedi there would be no Jedi armies. So were Jedi Rare, Well were Samurai rare? Monks Rare ? Marshalls Rare?..Nope they were around, but their skills far surpassed the general public due to their training and education. Also Really what does that word mean anyway "Rare"..compared to what?, its a word that has no real meaning.
So a jedi abilites are very specialized and really do not apply very well in a large scale war or conflict, they would operate in very specialzed groups more like special forces or infiltrators and scouts. They would be more like Apache scouts or Chinnese shadow warriors. You would rarely see them operate with more than two of them together or they might lead a small specialzed group . In reality Jedi, would me a most deadly opponent in a small unit conflict, in a large unit battles they might be an adviser, scout or spy.
In the unreal world of the pixel, Jedi has been a nightmare because there was no understanding what a jedi was and how to impliment it into a large scale conflict. This is due mainly because Jedi are very specialized in what they do. So in the world of the pixel what would jedi be? Well If I were to code (hardware desiner here), I might d the following for Jedi.
First , Only 2 jedi could be in any single group, this is because Jedi operate in small units and are very specialized.
Second, Jedi constantly train themsellves physically, mentally and spiritually, with this constant training and striving for perfection the Jedi over time hone their abilites and skills beyond the general public.
Third, Jedi havesubsets within their ranks to provide and craft the items that are specific to jedi, light sabres, robes , speciality items (Jedi crafters)
Conclusions, Jedi was poorly implimented and has pretty much been on a band aid program since. How to fix it , someone needs to understand how it fits into the pixel realm, it's not a general class. I'm not sure it can be fixed , I just hope someone will try.
Big-Rug
Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:13 am
#15
I think I am somewhat in the middle ground for this debate. I chose Jedi because of its iconic role in the galaxy. I have no delusions of grandeur about my expected power. If Luke Skywalker cannot be half as well trained as the Ep1-3 Jedi, who had been trained from infancy, I dont have much hope of obtaining that sort of skill in this setting.
I want customisation too. I want flexibilty in my skillset: that not only allows the ability to play as a light-sider, but actively promotes it for those that choose that path.
I don't want to be more powerful than a normal profession. I just want to be balanced when compared to them. Currently Jedi dont do half as much damage and are extremely limited in their personal cutomisation of equipment, personal appearance and skillset. We also have to manage a force bar which is irrelevant in the post-CU environment, where all skills are essentially 'magical.'
All Jedi and Dark Jedi are on a continuing search for power. Dark Jedi wish the power to dominate others, Light Jedi wish for continuing knowledge of the force, and its role in supporting and bettering life.
If jedi had focussed content to embelish their characters, most would not care so much about being uber. Thing to specialise a character - like learning force forms and lightsaber forms. Custom hilts and robes (may I add those available to be worn by ALL species!) and full customisation over lightsabers, withthe ability to loot/quest for new, interchangeable saber components would make Jedi's eyes light up like christmas. Most would be so busy goin out and about their business and having fun getting interesting things to make their characters their own, that they would not care that they couldn't take on 50 bh and still have enough change for the bus fare home...
A jedi isn't a job, its a way of life.
Regards,
BR
Never Underestimate the Power of the Pink Side - vive la master healer revolution!!
Dariane_Kamutsovy
Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:17 am
#16
As my sign (or macro, if I don't forget it) says, I've got3 Force Sensitive Characters.
My Padawan toon tries/tried to stay hidden, in exile and made halfway a full template. However, to enjoy new content, quests, I've found myself to be at a disadvantage. As pure melee profession I can't see myself doing anything anymore but more (and boring missions) if I should go stay hidden. As such, I choose to go out a bit and as a result got killed last monday by a BH. Ofcourse without a chance... 2 shot incap... Not complaining, cause I knew it was going to happen.
But it shows what MsNil is saying. Jedi are not more powerfull anymore. As such, things need changing, because penalties are still heavy. Why not add quests and content that keep Jedi busy (new quest based FRS?) and add more looks to Jedi (come on, everyone wears the same cloaks and stuff... it's boring).
MsNil has said over and over before, she doesn't have a FOTM fighter template. Same with my Crafter (2b Padawan): Master Craftery/Senses and heading for Saber ---4 when it is time. Even my Padawan in learning will not: Saber -2-2/MEnh/Healer 41--/Defender --44, cause that looks to me like a FUN template. And a helpfull template for assisting a (close) groupof friends and guildies.
Currently, there is a circle that needs to be broken: BH get stronger, so Jedi seek better defense/offense templates, BHs get stronger and so on. That's the reason so many BH and Jedi both have same/similar templates. Again, imho, which is boring. It leads to Hate (capital H here, because it seems to go further then just game mechanics).Jedi are also not as powerfull before, evensome of the BH acknowledge that.The Forced PvP attitude from some of them (BH and Jedi) is an old argument. Not all Jedi want that. Imagine RP-er Jedi, just helped his friends doing a quest. Nobody but the quest targets saw the Jedi in action. Then, enjoying a rest with the friends inside a cantina get ambushed by BHs and left with the choice to die (2 shot incap) or use (if possible!) Jedi powers and therefore showing off, generating more hatred. My personal choice would be: get killed and get it over with.
I don't need to be powerfull, I want to have fun, enjoy my skills. And because I can, it's the only reason for me to stay, together with my friends.
My 2cts.
Dariane Kamutsovy - Human MScout/MRanger/MCH/FS-Survivalist [FarStar]
EaveP Stone - Human MArtisan/MDE/MMerchant/Craftery Master[Infinity]
Inerva Men'es - Twi'lek MEntertainer/MID/MDancer/MMusician [Corbantis]
Tiwea Omy - Zabrak TKM/Jedi Padawan, ex MSmuggler [Chimaera]
Lyyywarraliak - Wookiee BE/Tailor [Chimaera]
EaveP Stone - Human MArtisan/MDE/MMerchant/Craftery Master[Infinity]
Inerva Men'es - Twi'lek MEntertainer/MID/MDancer/MMusician [Corbantis]
Tiwea Omy - Zabrak TKM/Jedi Padawan, ex MSmuggler [Chimaera]
Lyyywarraliak - Wookiee BE/Tailor [Chimaera]
mero909
Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:17 am
#17
MsNiL wrote:
I will probably get flamed for this, but whatever... It's perfectly fine to me if you disagree.
Jedi was sold out to fill a contentless void.
The "luxury product" was made cheaper when the market lost interest for the main product.
Pandoras box is opened, and Jedi will never be as powerful as they once where.
This is difficult to accept for some people who create a new post about it every day.
* Bring back pre-cu (becouse we where powerful then)
* Bring back pre-9 (becouse we where powerful then)
* Add more risk so we may have more power.
* Remove all Jedi who are * (* = Not my kind)
* Remove all Jedi who are not * (* = My kind)
* I grinded alot so I deserve power
* I am a Jedi, naturally I should be more powerful
etc... etc... etc...
Ofcourse we will see another post about this tomorrow. Or ten. It will never stop as long as there's nostalgic oldtimers around I guess, but more and more realise every day that pandoras box is open. There's no way or form that Jedi can go back to what they once where.
I would like to state the following, even if it just doesnt register in some heads:
I never became a Jedi to be powerful.
I became a Jedi with the intention of playing a Jedi, an exile, a refugee, with everything that means. A Jedi during the Rebellion Era are not soldiers, they arent even close to the few Masters who appear in the movies. At best we are untrained forcedabblers and refugees. If I am x1.0 next to a Rifleman MASTER, I am ok with it. I have a Lightsaber as a sign of my dedication to the game, that's everything I need in terms of "reward". I am interested about seeking out the mysterious force, not the next template for power. I am ready to take on the challenge of "staying hidden", not the challenge of pwning the next BH. As long as I am at least equal to non-Jedi I am fine, and I feel it's perfectly canon to be like that.
SWG dont need alphaclasses.
I earn nothing by proving my 1337 skillz in a computer game. I prove myself by going to work every day and earn my paybill. If I needed it, I want to be admitted by my skills/knowledge, not whatever profession/class I play in game.
But now I simply want a fun game to play. I simply want Jedi to be just as fun and entertaining as it was to seek out my first harvested hide, or work on earning that first composite armor. The game was fun and exciting back then, as where Kashyyyk and Mustafar.
But Jedi remains left out in all this. Playing a Jedi is not fun and exciting, becouse we have nothing to do. We are at the end of the trip, on the final chapter. There's no future once you unlocked your template. All our content are "good pearls" and some cloak from Mustafar while non-Jedi have several quests to earn unique weapons/armor, or loot that can improve old ones.
So what I want is not power, I want access to content. I want customizeable Lightsabers with cool crystals, custom powercells, custom emitters, custom lenses etc. I want exceptional holocrons with hidden knowledge. I want lootable forcepowers, or unlockable forcepowers. I want nice looking robes that can be customized. It doesnt matter if the end product is something with equal power to your average profession, as long as I feel my Jedi, my lightsaber and my robe is unique and different. My creation. Same power, but yet unlike everything else. That's my reward.
And I want a visibility system that is fun to play. I want a great advanced system in which the art of staying hidden is promoted. The one who stay hidden the longest are the best Jedi (at least the surviving ones who are most likely to inherit the Jedi council when the war is over). Being on the terminals should be very deadly and should be considered "worst case scenario".
Staying off the terminals need to be FUN and challenging.
I want sliceable bh terminals. I want to be able to cover my tracks. To dodge bh droids. I want to be able to change our names and our appearence. I want to be able to spread false rumours to cover our tracks. I want to be able to establish my hidden sanctum. I want to have danger sense that keep me warned when something is about to happen. I want to be able to fool the weakminded who try to hunt me down.
The time of seeing Jedi as a powerful soldier have come to an end.
I have accepted it. It's just a question about where we will go now.
My wish for the future is a fun game about playing Jedi as a refugee, hunted by the empire, just like Jedi should have been from the beginning. If I am permaovert to Dark Jedi I am perfectly fine, but if I want to be a soldier I have about 10 non-Jedi professions to choose from, and a BH event for a properly played Jedi should be a rare event.
Message Edited by MsNiL on 11-02-2005 03:51 PM
I agree 100%, but I do have one question. What do us Jedi do during this exile?
As a Jedi, I would LOVE to be rare and just "never around", but this game isn't the movies. This game is skinned to look like Star Wars and the actual professions can't and won't ever be like they are in Star Wars. Most never understand that. This game is "themed" after Star Wars, not an exact copy.
Vaashtkk
Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:24 am
#18
I'll be one of the first in line to play that game!
I hope it comes about in SWG. Well written. 
MickGrey
Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:28 am
#19
MsNiL wrote:
I want a visibility system that is fun to play. I want a great advanced system in which the art of staying hidden is promoted. The one who stay hidden the longest are the best Jedi (at least the surviving ones who are most likely to inherit the Jedi council when the war is over). Being on the terminals should be very deadly and should be considered "worst case scenario". Staying off the terminals need to be FUN and challenging.
Does anyone remember going to the cave behind the falls at the Ruined Jedi Temple on Dantooine? I do, even though it was 2 years ago. (Maybe part of the reason was that was the day my pre-nerf Probot got blown up by an NPC Dark Jedi and permanently destroyed, hehe).
There's a Jedi back there who gives you some quests to do. As the conversation starts, she says something along the lines of "I am not ready to reveal myself to the Empire just yet."
I thought this NPC was pretty cool from a roleplaying standpoint.
I suppose "roleplaying" is the missing element nowadays. There are people who gravitated toward Jedi due to the promise of power and all-pvp-all-the-time, and there are others like myself who were drawn to it for the roleplaying aspect.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this post, other than to say I agree with some of MsNiL's remarks and hope some changes will come our way that'll reward more than just the blind hack-n-slash playstyle.
EvilAztec
Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:44 am
#20
I'm going to disagree with you here. Jedi are Iconic partly because of their sheer power, partly their "wisdom." The error of the developers was allowing it to be too visible, too PvP oriented (idiots dueling in starports, slicing up the GCW), and to make an FRS system that practically required you to go beat on "normal" players generating untold levels of hate for "the pwnzor j3di".
Mind you that many of the people beaten on by those Jedi were of the "pwnzor" type themselves, and they hated losing.
What we need to do is move Jedi away from normal PvP in the GCW (SF General, as in General Kenobi). We need to recreate Lightsaber damage allowing Jedi to be more powerful in some ways,less in others.I hope we realize that a Jedi, if cornered, could slice pickets or bols to pieces, especially a MLS. On the other hand an Ancient Krayt is really big and will probably stomp on you without too much effort.
We need Lightsabers to be Lightsabers. Jedi kept them for their lives, well unless they constantly dropped/wrecked them 
We really need to move the penalty away from the forced BH PvP (but leave the BH's PvP), and install a setup where the System comes after you for being too noticable.
In short we need something similar to the clicky in my sig.
MsNiL wrote:
I will probably get flamed for this, but whatever... It's perfectly fine to me if you disagree.
Jedi was sold out to fill a contentless void.
The "luxury product" was made cheaper when the market lost interest for the main product.
Pandoras box is opened, and Jedi will never be as powerful as they once where.
This is difficult to accept for some people who create a new post about it every day.
* Bring back pre-cu (becouse we where powerful then)
* Bring back pre-9 (becouse we where powerful then)
* Add more risk so we may have more power.
* Remove all Jedi who are * (* = Not my kind)
* Remove all Jedi who are not * (* = My kind)
* I grinded alot so I deserve power
* I am a Jedi, naturally I should be more powerful
etc... etc... etc...
Ofcourse we will see another post about this tomorrow. Or ten. It will never stop as long as there's nostalgic oldtimers around I guess, but more and more realise every day that pandoras box is open. There's no way or form that Jedi can go back to what they once where.
I would like to state the following, even if it just doesnt register in some heads:
I never became a Jedi to be powerful.
I became a Jedi with the intention of playing a Jedi, an exile, a refugee, with everything that means. A Jedi during the Rebellion Era are not soldiers, they arent even close to the few Masters who appear in the movies. At best we are untrained forcedabblers and refugees. If I am x1.0 next to a Rifleman MASTER, I am ok with it. I have a Lightsaber as a sign of my dedication to the game, that's everything I need in terms of "reward". I am interested about seeking out the mysterious force, not the next template for power. I am ready to take on the challenge of "staying hidden", not the challenge of pwning the next BH. As long as I am at least equal to non-Jedi I am fine, and I feel it's perfectly canon to be like that.
SWG dont need alphaclasses.
I earn nothing by proving my 1337 skillz in a computer game. I prove myself by going to work every day and earn my paybill. If I needed it, I want to be admitted by my skills/knowledge, not whatever profession/class I play in game.
But now I simply want a fun game to play. I simply want Jedi to be just as fun and entertaining as it was to seek out my first harvested hide, or work on earning that first composite armor. The game was fun and exciting back then, as where Kashyyyk and Mustafar.
But Jedi remains left out in all this. Playing a Jedi is not fun and exciting, becouse we have nothing to do. We are at the end of the trip, on the final chapter. There's no future once you unlocked your template. All our content are "good pearls" and some cloak from Mustafar while non-Jedi have several quests to earn unique weapons/armor, or loot that can improve old ones.
So what I want is not power, I want access to content. I want customizeable Lightsabers with cool crystals, custom powercells, custom emitters, custom lenses etc. I want exceptional holocrons with hidden knowledge. I want lootable forcepowers, or unlockable forcepowers. I want nice looking robes that can be customized. It doesnt matter if the end product is something with equal power to your average profession, as long as I feel my Jedi, my lightsaber and my robe is unique and different. My creation. Same power, but yet unlike everything else. That's my reward.
And I want a visibility system that is fun to play. I want a great advanced system in which the art of staying hidden is promoted. The one who stay hidden the longest are the best Jedi (at least the surviving ones who are most likely to inherit the Jedi council when the war is over). Being on the terminals should be very deadly and should be considered "worst case scenario".
Staying off the terminals need to be FUN and challenging.
I want sliceable bh terminals. I want to be able to cover my tracks. To dodge bh droids. I want to be able to change our names and our appearence. I want to be able to spread false rumours to cover our tracks. I want to be able to establish my hidden sanctum. I want to have danger sense that keep me warned when something is about to happen. I want to be able to fool the weakminded who try to hunt me down.
The time of seeing Jedi as a powerful soldier have come to an end.
I have accepted it. It's just a question about where we will go now.
My wish for the future is a fun game about playing Jedi as a refugee, hunted by the empire, just like Jedi should have been from the beginning. If I am permaovert to Dark Jedi I am perfectly fine, but if I want to be a soldier I have about 10 non-Jedi professions to choose from, and a BH event for a properly played Jedi should be a rare event.
Message Edited by MsNiL on 11-02-2005 03:51 PM
Big-Rug
Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:45 am
#21
MickGrey wrote:
I suppose "roleplaying" is the missing element nowadays. There are people who gravitated toward Jedi due to the promise of power and all-pvp-all-the-time, and there are others like myself who were drawn to it for the roleplaying aspect.
I totally agree. This game is bereft of the 'RP' part of mmoRPg. Any seeming attampt for a player to be in character is simply there as a vain attempt to shove in meaningless content with the end result being bigger and badder loot that only feeds the power gamer mentality.
Other games accept that there are different types of player. Some do like to power game and PvP. Others like the adventure content PvE side. Others like to hard-core roleplay. This game takes all those variety of players and shoves them all into one melting pot. That's a recipe for disaster.
Why not take a leaf out of the pages of those other games and convert some servers to be focussed on PvP, RP, and RP PvP. That way the chances of people being around like-minded players is higher, so intercooperation and overall enjoyment is raised.
I am not a hard-core Rp'er, but I do enjoy dabbling at times. I mainly play for PvE quests, immersing myself in the universe, and I take the odd bout of PvP from MBH as an exciting change to the norm to keep me interested. I fit in the normal servers. There are those who would jump at the chance for perma overt PvP servers - where what side you chose really means something.
Anyway, enough random ramblings for now. Catch you guys later.
Regards,
BR
CURBhater
Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:49 am
#22
Jedi IS the alpha profession,I dont know any class that can stand and fight 1on1 against a jedi with a perfec saber despite armorbreak slices and what not,just ask for devs to improve pearl and crystal drops people can improve their sabers and you will see that Jedi is far from weak and infact the alpha profession of SWG
Argonuat
Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:57 am
#23
I am on the bench with this issue - because as in the movie and books Jedi is a feared group or respected group - you pick the look. I don't believe Jedi should be in the GWC; however I do believe they should be as powerful as say 2 master professions. Because with power comes responsibilty. With this being said there needs to a risk reward system and the BH or group limit should be removed. A Jedi should pay for miss use of his power, and must be respected for it. We need a Master/Student system and it is a great idea on the nowmore than 2 jedi in a group. I aslo believe Jedi should help other Jedi - like we have all seen countless times. I am not say make Jedi more powerful, but some the powergamers from killing our profession.
Va-Mei
Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:07 am
#24
Honestly, I find this post very depressing. It shows me just how lost the cause of Jedi really is. There are three real hopes that could save Jedi; a return to its former glory along with its former risk, being forced into hiding with survival being a reward in itself, or a Jedi that is separate but equal to the other professions, with an involving FRS. The reason I find it depressing, is that I don't think any of these are actually going to happen.
For Jedi to return to its former power without disrupting the rest of the game, a good many of us would need either drop Jedi, or be beaten down to the point that the power we wield isn’t harmful to the larger game. With the number of players claiming that being a Jedi is too hard in the current game, this is never going to happen. If there was enough risk to gate all but the best, then the rest of us would fail at every turn, or only the exploiters would be the real Jedi.
In order for refugee Jedi to be a rewarding experience, there would need to be a significant risk to keep us in hiding, meaning the Jedi must be weaker than that risk. As before, there are too many players claiming that Jedi is too hard for that to really happen. Detailed content would also need to be written in order give a Jedi player something to do with themselves while they play. To claim to be a Jedi in hiding while your joining your joining your friends in whatever it is that they do is a bit contradictory. Content like this would probably be similar in nature to what the Smugglers have been asking for since beta, and still has yet to happen. In the game we have now, the only way for a player to actually do anything as a Jedi in hiding, is to /login [alt]. Anything other than grinding creates vis.
The version of the FRS we had (broken as it was) was initially turned off “due to conflicts with the repec process..” back when the CU was launched. That was what… April? At this point, there is no ETA for a return, no concept for a replacement (rumor has if that LA rejected one SOE proposal), and no word from SOE on what they have in mind for Jedi.
I think the time has come for me to give up on looking for the reward of playing a full template Jedi and go back to being a hybrid. It was more fun to me for both combat and role-play. It didn’t take a light show to fend off a rabid nuna, for that matter, I could go through most fightswithout using active Jedi skills allowing me to blend into a group of norms. Ididn't worry about each and every dot on the radar. Best yet, I didn’t need to spend an hour or two each and every day looting crystals & pearls in the hope that one might possibly tune to a 3 digit damage or a fc of –7 so that it can be better than what I have now, all I had to do was wander down to the mall and take my pick of the rifles on the wall to have a weapon that was far superior to my 590ish/23fc flashlight.Best of all,I could join my guild in whatever they felt like doing for the night, knowing that I could make a real contribution to whatever it was we chose to do.
Message Edited by Va-Mei on 11-02-2005 08:41 AM
UTech
Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:10 am
#25
CURBhater wrote:
...against a jedi with a perfect saber despite armorbreak slices...
...just ask for devs to improve pearl and crystal drops...
And therein lies the problem. A lack of decent pearls (or the means to get them)means we are unbalanced as a profession, unbalanced against non-Jedi, unbalanced in PvE, and unbalanced against one another.
Love some of your suggestions, MsNil. I've always thought as a Jedi I should be able to put up a false profession title or evenfalsify my name as some sort of mind-trick. Sliceable BH terms are a great idea too.