Jedi Archive
Thread: Just a few reasons why the Jedi playerbase is currently quiet angry.
WinkerPeeper wrote:
Qui-Gonzalez wrote:
But the thing we all forget is this is a constantly changing game. People will be sure and cite you how much better other games are in the MMO genre, but we have things other games do not. We are told about the Rock/Paper/Scissors balance, but what players forget here is we are permitted to combine Rock and Scissors in our templates. We have the most diverse game out there in regards to playing professions. It is insanely hard to have balance in things like that.
I don't know if you were playing pre-CU but many of us thought that the combat system then was basically 'balanced' though it did need some significant tweaking.
In those days, all the combat professions were not the equivalent of each other.
Bascially, in the three core combat trees - Doc/CM, Melee (Pike/Fencer/TKM) and Ranged (Pistols/Rifles/Carbines) - each profession had a nemesis and was the nemesis on another (for example, Fencers had to fear Pikes but they could easily handle TKMs).
This was the vision of the team that originally created SWG. However, over time that teamn dispersed and a new team was brought in from EQ2 (which had just been launched). The EQ2 vision of combat - foudned on PVE, level-based combat- was radically different from the original SWG version - founded on PVP skills/equipment- based combat.
The troubles we now have regarding 'balance' is that the new team simply do not have a handle on the complexities of the original game and are trying to impose a new combat vision upon it. It seems that this vision really is not working so every Publish brings in new changes that nobody asks for and nobody welcomes, especially for Jedi and BHs whom the Devs seem to regard as the 'gold standard' of combat.
Been here since launch and anyone who says the combat system Pre-CU was balanced never fought a melee stacker, a Rifleman with a legendary T-21 or any of the other so called "Balanced" parts of the CU. We ALL asked for combat to change. We asked for Melee to take a bakeseat to Ranged. How can you call that balance?
I was adamantly Anti-CU until I got into it more. While it did slow down some aspects of combat, it sped others up, such as the getting involved in combat. CM/Rifleman was the "I-Win" tanged template. Bounty Hunter was stone garbage until they lowered the SP requirement. Pistoleer with Fencer was the hardest template to hit. I could go on, but there was no sense of balance at all, which is why we, as the player base, asked for a combat upgrade. Yes, it could have been done simply by removing buffs and lowering the cap on armor, but you still have things like Legendary weapons. Rare, yes, but the people with the big credits were the ones who won more often than not in PvP.
Qui-Gonzalez wrote:
WinkerPeeper wrote:
I don't know if you were playing pre-CU but many of us thought that the combat system then was basically 'balanced' though it did need some significant tweaking.
In those days, all the combat professions were not the equivalent of each other.
Bascially, in the three core combat trees - Doc/CM, Melee (Pike/Fencer/TKM) and Ranged (Pistols/Rifles/Carbines) - each profession had a nemesis and was the nemesis on another (for example, Fencers had to fear Pikes but they could easily handle TKMs).
This was the vision of the team that originally created SWG. However, over time that teamn dispersed and a new team was brought in from EQ2 (which had just been launched). The EQ2 vision of combat - foudned on PVE, level-based combat- was radically different from the original SWG version - founded on PVP skills/equipment- based combat.
The troubles we now have regarding 'balance' is that the new team simply do not have a handle on the complexities of the original game and are trying to impose a new combat vision upon it. It seems that this vision really is not working so every Publish brings in new changes that nobody asks for and nobody welcomes, especially for Jedi and BHs whom the Devs seem to regard as the 'gold standard' of combat.
Been here since launch and anyone who says the combat system Pre-CU was balanced never fought a melee stacker, a Rifleman with a legendary T-21 or any of the other so called "Balanced" parts of the CU. We ALL asked for combat to change. We asked for Melee to take a bakeseat to Ranged. How can you call that balance?
I was adamantly Anti-CU until I got into it more. While it did slow down some aspects of combat, it sped others up, such as the getting involved in combat. CM/Rifleman was the "I-Win" tanged template. Bounty Hunter was stone garbage until they lowered the SP requirement. Pistoleer with Fencer was the hardest template to hit. I could go on, but there was no sense of balance at all, which is why we, as the player base, asked for a combat upgrade. Yes, it could have been done simply by removing buffs and lowering the cap on armor, but you still have things like Legendary weapons. Rare, yes, but the people with the big credits were the ones who won more often than not in PvP.
WinkerPeeper wrote:
Qui-Gonzalez wrote:
WinkerPeeper wrote:
I don't know if you were playing pre-CU but many of us thought that the combat system then was basically 'balanced' though it did need some significant tweaking.
In those days, all the combat professions were not the equivalent of each other.
Bascially, in the three core combat trees - Doc/CM, Melee (Pike/Fencer/TKM) and Ranged (Pistols/Rifles/Carbines) - each profession had a nemesis and was the nemesis on another (for example, Fencers had to fear Pikes but they could easily handle TKMs).
This was the vision of the team that originally created SWG. However, over time that teamn dispersed and a new team was brought in from EQ2 (which had just been launched). The EQ2 vision of combat - foudned on PVE, level-based combat- was radically different from the original SWG version - founded on PVP skills/equipment- based combat.
The troubles we now have regarding 'balance' is that the new team simply do not have a handle on the complexities of the original game and are trying to impose a new combat vision upon it. It seems that this vision really is not working so every Publish brings in new changes that nobody asks for and nobody welcomes, especially for Jedi and BHs whom the Devs seem to regard as the 'gold standard' of combat.
Been here since launch and anyone who says the combat system Pre-CU was balanced never fought a melee stacker, a Rifleman with a legendary T-21 or any of the other so called "Balanced" parts of the CU. We ALL asked for combat to change. We asked for Melee to take a bakeseat to Ranged. How can you call that balance?
I was adamantly Anti-CU until I got into it more. While it did slow down some aspects of combat, it sped others up, such as the getting involved in combat. CM/Rifleman was the "I-Win" tanged template. Bounty Hunter was stone garbage until they lowered the SP requirement. Pistoleer with Fencer was the hardest template to hit. I could go on, but there was no sense of balance at all, which is why we, as the player base, asked for a combat upgrade. Yes, it could have been done simply by removing buffs and lowering the cap on armor, but you still have things like Legendary weapons. Rare, yes, but the people with the big credits were the ones who won more often than not in PvP.
And the point is, for every strange, powerful template that was created (like the Pistoleer/Fencer you mention) there was the ability to create another strange, powerful template that could beat it (for example, Rifles/CM could take out Pistols/Fence).
It is true that that BHs were very weak until they freed up the tree to allow them to take more combat professions. However, when they did that, the Devs did not make equivalent changes to the natural enemies of the BH, the Jedi - so, for a time, Jedi became garbage against a BH. However, balance could easily have beemn restored betwen them.
Instead we got the CU which I still maintain is utterly alien to the original SWG combat system that is still in place.
I want to address the three things here. One, we had a dodge stacker on our server that won far more than he lost to ANY template, including CMs. There were "I-Win" buttons in the Pre-CU days....moreso than what we have now.
I was a BH for the first year and a half of the game. I can tell you that even with the SP reduction, the odds of beating a Jedi as a Master Bounty Hunter were slim and none if the Jedi were a Master Lightsaber wielder. 85% block made it impossible and the only ones who could do it were the 3000/TKM/melee stacked Bounty Hunters with Lightsaber resist PSGs. How much more sense does it make for a person to walk up to someone who can cut through armor plated ship bulkheads to punch someone to death than what we have now?
We have a CU. It may not be what we asked for, but it is what we have and I make the best of it now that I am on the other side of the hunter/hunted coin. I like the game. Some of the changes make me roll my eyes, but I do it as I log into the game to play again.
Qui-Gonzalez wrote:
We have a CU. It may not be what we asked for, but it is what we have and I make the best of it now that I am on the other side of the hunter/hunted coin. I like the game. Some of the changes make me roll my eyes, but I do it as I log into the game to play again.
WinkerPeeper wrote:
Qui-Gonzalez wrote:
We have a CU. It may not be what we asked for, but it is what we have and I make the best of it now that I am on the other side of the hunter/hunted coin. I like the game. Some of the changes make me roll my eyes, but I do it as I log into the game to play again.
I see. Well, that's good. But many of us - and it seems like the majority - are of a different opinion especially after the Saber Throw nerf, th FRS nerf, the pearl nerf, the AI nerf (twice), the state defence nerf, the Master Healer Ner, the Master Powers nerf, the cloak nerf, the root nerf, the healing nerf, the force run nerf...
...And so on and so on.
You know, when I unlocked, the FRS was still in the game, but I vowed I would not participate in it because it was a giant CF. As far as the other nerfs go, yes, I have been bitten by them ALL. After mastering Bounty Hunter before mounts, there is nothing that SWG can throw at me that will make me quit. Hell, I was all for the increased action costs, so that should let you know how much a sadist I can be.
As far as the root thing goes, there are ways around it, so it is no big deal for me. Just look on the boards and you will see folks have already come up with ways to counter. The game is full of ebbs and flows man, ebbs and flows.
Here's my take on the whole situation regarding balance both Pre and Post CU. First off there will NEVER be perfect perceivedbalance especially in PvP, not when egos are at stake, there is just too much variance in the different skills and abilities to make each one truelyequal. Second, if we are only going by what we read on these forums (all professions) then it is an inaccurate portrail of what really happens ingame. It's just like the news media...only the bad stuffgets reported. Finally, there are far toomany kneejerk reactionsmade by ill-informed biased people within our playerbase.
From my experience in combat both before and after the CU, I've realized there isn't any such thing as an "all powerful template" as it was posted before there was always a nemesis. I was a swordsman / doc,pistoleer / CM, TK / fencer, MBH, rifleman / ranger all before the CU, and have tried an equal number of professions after it, only to find that there are strengths and weaknesses to all of them. Each one has "balance" in the bigger picture, mabey not against a single type of template, but fair enough whereI win some and loose some.
Most of what is posted on the forums is total garbage,most people don't post the good parts of their abilities, we all like to complain about the bad. Ifthe game is truely as bad as it would appear in the forums, then why are we all still here. Yes there are bugs, and annoyances,but if it was anything like the E-Drama that goes on in here then the servers would truely be empty, either that or we're all a bunch of morons. I'd bet my left testicle that all the people I've killed in PvP were rather upset, and of that group, themore immature ones probably came runing here to write about itcrying injustice and a need for balance, however I don't see any of their posts about how they pounced on someone earlier that day, or ganked someone while loading into a starport. A perfect example is riflemen, we are upset that our snare ability wasn't worth the room in our toolbar, but you never read anything about how effective conceal shot is. Just like I never heard any Jedi bragging about going toe to toe with DJM's while using AI, yet my two RL buddies wouldn't shut the hell up about all the cool SEA's they were getting because of it.
YesterdayI read a post stating that a rifleman i believe was hitting for 8000 points with screenshots to prove it. Well the community went balistic, but if one actually took the time to look at the screenshot and understand the game mechanics, there was nothing worng with that scenario. First the "target" wasn't armored, second he was 8 CL's lower than the attacker, third the attacker had taken a mixture of food and drink to raise his accuracy to it's highest potential, and last the attacker was using a shot which even under the best of circumstances is rarely used in PvP. That's just a brief example of what I'm talking about, a lot of the playerbase doesn't understand the true underlying game mechanics at work. There's a reason whymy CL1 craftergets incapped by Falumpasets, and my combat alt doesn't, there's still a lot of people who think DPS is themost important stat on a weapon, most people don't even know the modifiers of specials, and we're all still in the dark about melee / ranged defences.
Unfortunately I think the real problem is the nature in which some of the player base likes to play, there's the mature crowd, that will role with the punches and try to make it a better game and then there's the snot nosed "L337" kiddies who after getting picked on all day in school have to come here and try to find solace in there troubled existence. The two will never see eye to eye. I feel sorry for the Jedi who played bythe rules and took their licks along the way, but even after playing for 2 years I refuse to finish up the village and go Jedi for what it is perceived to be now. It has been utterly ruined by both a lack of needed changes, and the crybabies who have flocked to it in recent months.
It's gotta happen. Snare is WAY unbalanced. NPC AI specials are WAY too unbalanced. SL is WAY unbalanced.
WinkerPeeper wrote:Many of us feel the same way. It is so odd that the priorities of the actual players do not seem to register amongst the priorities of the developers.
I mean, for example, we know that capital ships may be the "next new big thing" but - while many of us would like to see these features added - we, as Jedi, need - the FRS returned, state defences fixed, pearl drops restored, the un-nerfing of our master moves etc etc.
Sorry to rain on your parade, but since it's introduction into the game Jedi has gotten more attention than most other professions (a nerf is attention btw).
Why do all you Jedi players think you deserve special treatment? At the end of the day my $15 is actually more profitable to SOE than a Jedi's $15.00 because I only have 1 character and Jedi have 2. So, I am entitled to more as a non-Jedi player, just because you killed a bunch of pickets and bols for a few weeks doesn't make you special. I like the fact that the DEVS haven't caved to all the Jedi whiners and they realize there are a lot of professions, that need attention (have smugglers ever been able to smuggle?), BH was busted for a year, and we always were asking for fixes and what not, finally they fixed it.
Here is the entire issue, it says in multiple places when you buy and play this game that "Game Experience May change during Gameplay". Most people ignore that phrase it's the most important phrase in an MMO. Here is the problem, there are thousands of people playing this game, and there is no way the DEVS can please everyone it's just a fact. Let's say the DEVS give Jedi everything they want, the make the 3x more powerful than double elite temps, and all their specials work as planned and there is no snare. Well if they did this then you would probably have all other profs quit the game or go Jedi, then it would be all Jedi all the time (which would be stupid). Artisans and entertainers would more than likely quit the game all together because Jedi don't buy weapons, can't wear armor, and can heal their own wounds or find a jedi who will do it for them. The biggest problem is there would be no challege left in the game, you are a Jedi and no one but another jedi can beat you, and getting loot would be easy because you could kill everything without a problem, so the game would end up not being a challenge, loot wouldn't be rare (it hardly is now with all the Jedi alt BH's running the missions).
As far as the bugs go, every piece of software has bugs sorry that's how it is, Microsoft Windows "buggy", Mozilla has bug fixes, Linux even has bugs on occasion, that's just the nature of software and with a codebase the size of a game like this it is a humongous challenge to get the bugs worked out. There isn't a start>settings>fix bug options and it just works, they have to go through lines of code to find the problem, and problems can slip through testing very easily. In the Beta test I would say 30 - 40% of the players were actually doing the quest, while the rest were loot camping (stupid), dueling in front of the frogs (dumb), testing out new temps, or begging for Jedi to get turned back on. So, some bugs will slip through and be fixed when they can get to them.
The Jedi player base has some issues (not all of you just some), anyone who thinks that because they killed a bunch of pickets and did some village quests or holos, they should be better than everyone else is just plain ignorant. You did all of that for the ability and privelage of wielding Jedi only items (lightsabers, etc..) there was never a promise of ultimate power and dominance. I feel most of the Jedi that complain are the PVE (@arebear) type of players who hate PVP, the Alpha class (Jedi) is made for PVP, and since there are so many Jedi and hardly any PVP going on with them the DEVS had to react and take away some of the power because it isn't being used for it's intended purpose.
wildcat84 wrote:
Personally, I believe that the producers had better come up with a hotfix or some plan TODAY and announce it. If you think things have broken down now, it is going to get worse, especially over the weekend.
It's gotta happen. Snare is WAY unbalanced. NPC AI specials are WAY too unbalanced. SL is WAY unbalanced.
So, let me get your logic straight:
Challenge = Unbalanced
Oh no they made the game a little harder and the NPC's actually TRY to kill me now. Put it this way people were soloing Necrosis there is not way in heck that should ever happen in this game.
Jediknight2k1 wrote:
Thunderheart on the Lightsaber speed bug :
"Yes, it is an issue we are aware of.
Sorry but I don't have an ETA atm..."
A major issue with Jedi. Their weapons speed effects DPS and cooldown timers. The reply states there is no ETA on fix.
CM dots get fixed within 48 hours of them being bugged.
get over it... they took 20 months to fix an architect bug!
Tiggs on Premium Pearls:
"Currently, Premium Pearls do not drop. We will bring them back into the game once we figure out a favorable implementation of these special items; there is not specific ETA for this change and all players that have the old Premium Pearls will get to keep them in the interim."
Premium pearls removed from the game and no stated reason why. Meanwhile Bounty Hunters can loot +180 damage/-8 SAC Enhanced Powercells which cap both weapons stats. Resulting in unbalanced combat as Jedi are at a disadvantage. Aren't 180 dmg/-8 SAC Enhanced Powercells also "special items" ?
i never heard it put like that... it makes sense. I think the reason why they took them out was because they wanted to decrease the rate at which they drop. I would imagine that when and if a loot overhall occurs the "special items" will all become far more rare. I have a BH alt and i looted one nice stack of 3 reinforced casings in about 100 missions. They probably want to make premium stuff drop at that 1/100 rate. But i do agree that they need to be added back into the game.
Thunderheart on the FRS.
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AynenAmolen wrote: So no FRS anytime soon eh?
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Thunderheart wrote:
AynenAmolen: That is correct. For the next few publishes, we will be doing smaller publishes that focus on bugs and issues.
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With the event of the Combat Upgrade the FRS was taken down for "improvments". To this day not a single developer has posted or explained the extended delay with the FRS. Meanwhile various other professions had a revamp to make them more "balanced" with the CU.
My only hope that the Jedi re-revamp is eventually part of this because right now Master Healer is useless, 0040 Ehancer is completly broken and 0004 Defender isn't to report resisting state attacks.
I do not deny or want to stop any other professions getting their needed revamps and attention, but sure their must be enough devs to revamp ranger and also work the FRS at the same time.
there aren't enough devs period! tailors, DE, architects, doctors, shipwright... a few examples of professions that are losing viability fast. no decay/no renewable business/no use save for specific templates=these professions will continue to dwindle to nothing. some servers can have the entire tailor and architect demand supplied by one or two people. thats messed up! This does need to happen but it being a reason for the player base to be up in arms is rediculous. other profs have been waiting far longer than jedi for attention.