Image Designer Archive
Thread: Be a Smart Shopper!
Message Edited by Alciril on 05-14-2004 05:51 AM
Alciril wrote:
You don't have a signature containing your mastered professions, but I briefly looked through your previous posts and noticed that you've mastered your fair share of combat professions (including commando). Realistically (and please be honest here), does the cash flow from being a master ID even come close to approaching the income from an elite combat profession? After all, in extreme cases, people with an elite combat profession and the proper buffs can easily make 30k every 10 minutes by running missions. Plus they're not burdened with the task of finding or being approached by a potential customer.
Three colors for three points:
- No it doesn't and it shouldn't. The ID does not have anywhere near the risk associated with the combat professions. Players can ID in complete isolation from the GCW and do not EVER have to worry about dying, traveling, etc.
- The highest paying mission in the game is a little over 36k credits and can only be soloed by elite combat masters or there abouts. In addition, to solo these mobs a pet or buffs are needed which is an expense. The absolute cheapest I can solo these missions at is roughly 2k credits per mission. This is without armor and only buffs. I make a 34k+ profit every 20 minutes on average as a duel elite master. One stat migration costs the ID nothing more than 10 minutes of their time and they make 85k credits (price based on the cheapestI could find last night). Therefore, ano risk, no interdependancy, profession is making more than 450% more money over the same timer period for a few clicks of the mouse than a duel elite combat profession that has medium risk and a ton of interdependancy.
- Remember that high paying mission everyone likes to throw up as an example of why ID don't have to feel bad about charging a lot for a service that requires little or no effort? Well in order for the combat professions to get that mission they must look for a large enoughgroup (people) to pull the missions. This is the same "burden" that the ID profession has to deal with, only the ID profession merely has to deal with one person, not the 6-12 people needed to pull the missions. In addition, the combat player must find a doctor to get a buff, which isn't the easist of tasks.
Let's get down to the bottom line. IDs feel they deserve some "rewards" for being a "useless" profession for such a long time. I can sympothis with this, but think they are generating more hate due to the price gouging. My key point on this is that something that is "optional" like getting a color change or new hair styleis still reasonably priced, even though they can take longer due to picky customer. An item like stat migration that takes a long time, but requires little actual interaction, is being extorted because many players view it as an essential part of the game.
I've had a lot of customers I'd like to have charged 250k at the end of the session hehe. The bottom line is we all have expenses and we are all in a roleplay setting where presumably your character needs an income and will charge for services likeanyperson would in real life that was supporting themselves. If youreally want to start comparing that way, doctors should prob be making the most money, with soldiersnot makingas much on average.A crafters income much like in real life depends a great deal on the success of their advertising, thequality of their products, and how much time they can devote to their craft. Image Designers are odd hybrids. We are both cosmetic artists/hairstylists and plastic surgeons. We probably all base our prices on howvaluablewe feel our services, training, and time are. Ivalue mine quite highly 
Especially my time
TechBoss wrote:
The ID does not have anywhere near the risk associated with the combat professions. Players can ID in complete isolation from the GCW and do not EVER have to worry about dying, traveling, etc.
Let's get down to the bottom line. IDs feel they deserve some "rewards" for being a "useless" profession for such a long time. I can sympothis with this, but think they are generating more hate due to the price gouging. My key point on this is that something that is "optional" like getting a color change or new hair styleis still reasonably priced, even though they can take longer due to picky customer. An item like stat migration that takes a long time, but requires little actual interaction, is being extorted because many players view it as an essential part of the game.
You such a nice boy 
Let me ask you this (what is your risk of not getting your reward?) NONE right? Well IDers are at high risk of this. How you feel if 60% of your mission had no reward, well that is the life of an IDer. Right now players are paying buck buck to be the First with the new looks, over the next week or two prices will likely go down when customer demand goes down. If this is such a "useless" over price profession way are so many usefull waiting in line to be servered by us? and don't say because they are force to because of stat migration because only one out of ten customer of ask me for that.
TechBoss wrote:
- No it doesn't and it shouldn't. The ID does not have anywhere near the risk associated with the combat professions. Players can ID in complete isolation from the GCW and do not EVER have to worry about dying, traveling, etc.
As far as I know, neutrals can be combatants and fight in isolation from the GCW too. And since when do IDs not have to worry about traveling? Until tents can be built in player cities, IDs are forced to leave their studios and congregate around the pre-placed ID tents in the major cities. Also, since when was dying so painful? Assuming you've insured and cloned, it's nothing more than an inconvenience.
TechBoss wrote:
- The highest paying mission in the game is a little over 36k credits and can only be soloed by elite combat masters or there abouts. In addition, to solo these mobs a pet or buffs are needed which is an expense. The absolute cheapest I can solo these missions at is roughly 2k credits per mission. This is without armor and only buffs. I make a 34k+ profit every 20 minutes on average as a duel elite master. One stat migration costs the ID nothing more than 10 minutes of their time and they make 85k credits (price based on the cheapestI could find last night). Therefore, ano risk, no interdependancy, profession is making more than 450% more money over the same timer period for a few clicks of the mouse than a duel elite combat profession that has medium risk and a ton of interdependancy.
I've regularly seen doctors offer buffs with durations of 3 hours and above for 10k. For the sake of the argument, let's cut the duration down to2 hours and price them at 15k. Assuming you're able to complete one 30k mission in 20 minutes, you'll be able to make 180,000 credits in two hours. Subtracting the initial 15k charge for buffs, you've just pocketed 165,000. Yes, you do have overhead in the form of weapons and armor, but realize that I've been conservative with my estimates and that it's also possible to make a great deal more from a 3 hour set of buffs. You're also making the assumption that people are lining up in front of IDs and regularly asking for stat migrations.
Doctors routinely charge 10k for buffs and justify the cost because of the price of buff packs (which themselves are relatively inexpensive) and the time involved. If it takes similarly inexpensive cosmetic packs for IDs to justify charging their prices, then so be it. I don't think you'll hear many of them complain.
TechBoss wrote:
- Remember that high paying mission everyone likes to throw up as an example of why ID don't have to feel bad about charging a lot for a service that requires little or no effort? Well in order for the combat professions to get that mission they must look for a large enoughgroup (people) to pull the missions. This is the same "burden" that the ID profession has to deal with, only the ID profession merely has to deal with one person, not the 6-12 people needed to pull the missions. In addition, the combat player must find a doctor to get a buff, which isn't the easist of tasks.
During my surveying visits to Dantooine I've often seen people at the mining outpost shout, "looking for solo group! please send an invite!" They rarely wait for more than a few minutes and are quickly swallowed up by fellow players who are also looking for larger payouts. All the people in the solo group benefit from each other. The difference with IDs is that multiple IDs can't share the same customer all at once. You also need to take into account thattheir customizations are permanent (with the exception of the holo emotes). Once people have settled on a look they like, they won't be back until they're ready for a change. Also, in the absence of customers, IDs aren't fortunate enough to be able to walk up to ID mission terminals and pull in the same income they'd be able to generate face to face with another player.
IDs feel that they deserve rewards because their profession requires the same number of skill points as a profession like Pistoleer. And the definition of price "gouging" is relative. While some people justify it as gouging becauseIDs doesn't require resources, I look at it differently. I'm not paying for resources--I'm paying for the ID's time. And in my opinion, that's far more valuable.
TechBoss wrote:
Let's get down to the bottom line. IDs feel they deserve some "rewards" for being a "useless" profession for such a long time. I can sympothis with this, but think they are generating more hate due to the price gouging. My key point on this is that something that is "optional" like getting a color change or new hair styleis still reasonably priced, even though they can take longer due to picky customer. An item like stat migration that takes a long time, but requires little actual interaction, is being extorted because many players view it as an essential part of the game.
So an ID feels there worth 8.5k per minute? Intesting.
The whole thing with this game is time and resources. A combatant spends 10-20 minutes on a fight, but 300k for his composite, 50k for his weapons, 5-20k for his stims, 35k for his droid/pet, 10k for his buffs, 4k for his ticket to dantooine.
Then he makes lets say 180k per set of buffs. 14k right off the top for travel/buff costs. A couple k off for the stims used. Lets say 1/10 the price of his armor/weapons per mission, 35k. So now he made 180k and spend lets call it 45k. Good good. So he puts 135k in his pocket. So lets see 180 minutes in 3 hours, divided by 135k net profit, he makes 750 credits per minute.
You want to charge 8500 credits per minute? CRAZY. Especially considering you have zero resource cost, and you spend the equivalent of 1 elite proffesion in skill points to get master ID. Then again, since you can do stat migration at novice ID, and that only costs 35 skill points, the skill point argument kinda goes right out the window.
Now, I do not begrude ID's to make money. But please consider for the service offered, the lack of having to use any material, all you spend is time. We (the non-ID populace), are happy to pay you for your time, but please lets be reasonable?
Or perhaps re-justify your price scheme? Now the price per mastered profession. I like that idea. someone who's masted zero professions, charge like 1k. Charge say 1k per novice profession mastered, 5k per elite combat/support profession masted, and maybe even 10k per elite craft profession masted. This would reasonably charge people based on what they can make income wise with there profession.
Also the guy with 20 professions mastered, you know he doesn't HAVE 20 masted professions. Charge him for say 1 elite craft-profession, 1 elite combat profession, and 1 novice profession. That'd be like 16k. Thats 160 credits per minute for you. Add a 10%-25% surcharge if your a master ID, and have really spend the skill points equal to a master elitle profession.
jassi007 wrote:
The whole thing with this game is time and resources. A combatant spends 10-20 minutes on a fight, but 300k for his composite, 50k for his weapons, 5-20k for his stims, 35k for his droid/pet, 10k for his buffs, 4k for his ticket to dantooine.
Then he makes lets say 180k per set of buffs. 14k right off the top for travel/buff costs. A couple k off for the stims used. Lets say 1/10 the price of his armor/weapons per mission, 35k. So now he made 180k and spend lets call it 45k. Good good. So he puts 135k in his pocket. So lets see 180 minutes in 3 hours, divided by 135k net profit, he makes 750 credits per minute.
You want to charge 8500 credits per minute? CRAZY. Especially considering you have zero resource cost, and you spend the equivalent of 1 elite proffesion in skill points to get master ID. Then again, since you can do stat migration at novice ID, and that only costs 35 skill points, the skill point argument kinda goes right out the window.
Now, I do not begrude ID's to make money. But please consider for the service offered, the lack of having to use any material, all you spend is time. We (the non-ID populace), are happy to pay you for your time, but please lets be reasonable?
...
That'd be like 16k. Thats 160 credits per minute for you. (1600 per minute is actually the amount)Add a 10%-25% surcharge if your a master ID, and have really spend the skill points equal to a master elitle profession.
OK, see there is a fundamental flaw in your reasoning and with all the reasoning that tries to argue this way. You are saying we make XYZ per minute based on the time to make one change and the max charge people are charging. First of all, most people aren't charging anything like the amount you are going balistic over. Maybe 1/5 of that is typical. So, already we are in the zone of where you think we should be.
Second, if we did charge that we'd still make far less than what you yourself are considering "fair." Why? Because unlike combat professions we can't guarantee our income. Income has to COME TO US. Customers have to want our services or we make nothing. So... I can log in and sit around for two hours and make nothing. Nada. Zilch. If no one wants ID that evening I make zero credits per minute. Whereas, any combat profession has a reliable, steady, assured income in the form of mission terminals. They are ALWAYS there. That is the fundamental reason why Image Designers will never evermake the money combat professions do regardless of what they charge. We rely on other people to make us money, and unlike crafting professions we actually have to be there with the customer too. We can't just craft when we want to and put stuff on a vendor. We have to be online, at the keyboard, available when the customer wants something.
Also thanks for correcting the math mistake. I feel kinda dumb on that.
Also the cost per time unit isn't my idea, its your fellow ID's. Again refernce threads, most ID's are referencing there rates on the time involved. So its the ID's idea again not mine.
Your point about mission terms and customers coming to you is absolutley valid, BUT, with stat ID being the sole providence of ID's now, people WILL come to you on a regular basis.
I think ID's need to rethink what and why they charge what they charge for stat migration. Again, my arguement is not that you should/shouldn't charge, simply that you should charge reasonably, an ID's should work for a concensous on WHY they charge what they charge.
If/when I visit an ID for stat changes my first question will be how much, then why.
Now other stuff should be where the money is at. Holo-emotes, appearance changes, thats where you should make the money. They're non essential services, so charge whatever you feel for them.
I think ID's need to protect there profession. Your such a niche profession that suddenly finds itself in the spot light. If you don't keep the price gougers out by offering reasonable rates, then frankly people are going to pick ID as a cash cow like some do with doc's. And unless you want your profession sullied by people out for a quick buck and no interest in the heart and sole of image design, you'll need to act on this matter quickly.
If 25-75k becomes the norm, and people realize for 35 skill points and ZERO resources I can haul in cash like that for 10 minutes of time, you'll find ID as nothing more than a stat profession, that can do other stuff. And that isn't what you are.
jassi007 wrote:
hehe, such an interesting thread.
So an ID feels there worth 8.5k per minute? Intesting.
The whole thing with this game is time and resources. A combatant spends 10-20 minutes on a fight, but 300k for his composite, 50k for his weapons, 5-20k for his stims, 35k for his droid/pet, 10k for his buffs, 4k for his ticket to dantooine.
Then he makes lets say 180k per set of buffs. 14k right off the top for travel/buff costs. A couple k off for the stims used. Lets say 1/10 the price of his armor/weapons per mission, 35k. So now he made 180k and spend lets call it 45k. Good good. So he puts 135k in his pocket. So lets see 180 minutes in 3 hours, divided by 135k net profit, he makes 750 credits per minute.
You want to charge 8500 credits per minute? CRAZY. Especially considering you have zero resource cost, and you spend the equivalent of 1 elite proffesion in skill points to get master ID. Then again, since you can do stat migration at novice ID, and that only costs 35 skill points, the skill point argument kinda goes right out the window.
Now, I do not begrude ID's to make money. But please consider for the service offered, the lack of having to use any material, all you spend is time. We (the non-ID populace), are happy to pay you for your time, but please lets be reasonable?
Or perhaps re-justify your price scheme? Now the price per mastered profession. I like that idea. someone who's masted zero professions, charge like 1k. Charge say 1k per novice profession mastered, 5k per elite combat/support profession masted, and maybe even 10k per elite craft profession masted. This would reasonably charge people based on what they can make income wise with there profession.
Also the guy with 20 professions mastered, you know he doesn't HAVE 20 masted professions. Charge him for say 1 elite craft-profession, 1 elite combat profession, and 1 novice profession. That'd be like 16k. Thats 160 credits per minute for you. Add a 10%-25% surcharge if your a master ID, and have really spend the skill points equal to a master elitle profession.
The red point highlighted, i beleive is invalid, those items are not required, they merely make it easier, a master TKM can trash rancors with doctor buffs no sweat in justa skirtand bustier if she wished (i know cosa friend of mine does this often, she has no pet, she has no medic, she buys buffs / clothes / vibro knuckler, thats all,then goes out to slaughter them)
The yellow point highlighted is another flaw in your argument, as you assume an ID can turn on a custom generator and have a constant income as they wish, which sadly isnt the case, while ID's get a nice boost of buisness on this update, give it a few weeks and it will be back to normal, which is FAR lower amount of customers per day. Fact is you can do combat missions whenever you feel like, lets face it, solo groups form non-stop and buffs are just *so* hard to come by.
I dont use the same prices as the unions set up, i use my own which some may have seen me post elsewhere, however im more intolerant on what i will/will not do due to time restraints on my crafting side anyway. I feel sorry for people who cant get hold of an ID to stat migrate them now, i really do, but if you think im running to bestine tent just to sit there for 10 mins, and then have someone argue that my time isnt worth much to them... sorry thats not fun. If people can come to me i love to do it as a break from crafting tho, if they are patient enough to come to me, must be patient enough with meto not anoy me is my reasoning