Image Designer Archive
Thread: Do any of you ask for payment up front? And how do you avoid getting stiffed?
Kwee wrote:
>>The only post I recall making recently on the topic of a secure trade system was that I did not like the idea ofhaving a capof four digits for the amount of credits we could charge as some of us have five digit charges for several changes.
>>Given our current interface there is no sensical time at which to charge the person since the typical customer previews and accepts many changes before choosing what they want, and often changes their mind even after they've chosen.
>>The document included wish list items from a multitude of professions.
>>However,Icannot and shouldnot beconsidered a representative of all of these different professions.
You do single changes on customers that cost more than 9999 credits? Because unless there are single changes that you do that cost 10000 and up I can't see how it would be a problem or confusing or nonsensicalfor any image designer to figure out when to plug a fee into the interface.
It wouldn't matter whether or not you got a customer that wanted to change their mind a number of times or not. They want a new hairstyleso the IDer plugs in the fee they charge for changing a hairstyle. The customer either accepts the change and pays the fee or they just view the change and then refuse it. If they accept the change and pay the fee and then change their mind and want to see another style,then I'm sure in most cases the IDer would leave off plugging in any fee for the next hairstyle offered.
There aren't very many customers that one runs into that just randomly accepts each image changethat the IDer throws at them. I'm not saying there are never any thatdo that but they are few and far between.At any rate,this sort of scenariowouldn't matter anyway. The IDer doesn't need to charge if they don't wish to. And the customer certainly doesn't have to accept a change they don't want or don't wish to pay for. It's really not that complicated of a concept or that difficult to figure out when to charge a fee and when not to. Even ifan IDerisdoing an overall job that would cost more than 9999 credits, when all was said and done, I'll bet they could figure out how to break the fee up into segments. Or in your case, if figuring out how to split the fee into segments is a problem for you or you don't want to ask forpayment until the job is finished, thendon't use this feature at all if it becomes available to us.
An IDer wouldn't have to use this feature at all if they didn't wish to. This isn't something we have aneed for when we work ID on repeat customers. Or oncustomers who come recommended to us. It is, however, something we need if we're the image designer that gets a lot of potential business that comes to us as walk-ins to a cantina. Or business that comes to us as we're stopped at the bank, or while we're perusing the bazaar, or waiting for a shuttle.
It's these latter examples, where players don't so much specifically go and seek out an image designer, so much as they just happenupon us and then deside that it might be fun to change their avatar's image, that are the folks who'll be more likely towaste our time and want to walk away without paying. And I'm afraid that none of your 1-7 tips to keep from getting ripped off, other than the asking for payment in advance, is going to help much here. And asking forpayment up front only shifts the risk to thecustomer rather than getting rid ofthe risk. Plus, asking for payment up front starts the whole process off on a more unfriendly,untrusting, note than we might like. Bottom line iswe shouldn'thave to standthere and wonder if our time is beingwasted or not. Afeature that allowed us to request payment as a trade for services would help us not wonder quite so often.
As far as what did or didn't makeit into your document,or my considering you asa formalrepresentative of any profession, I think you misunderstand why I called you to taskon your initial response in this thread. What I meant when I said I didn't want to see someone who is representing IDers shoot down the idea of secure trade for services was thatwe're all here representing IDers when we post. Andit's obvious that you'vebeen enough of a squeeky wheel that you've helped to get a Dev to show up here. Which is great! It also means that you're farfrom taking a back seat when it comes to representing what IDer wantor feel they need. It was because you are so visible andvocal,and becauseI had only seen you post aboutthe notion ofsecure trade for services for IDers in a way that led me to believe you thought it wasn't necessary, that I questioned the tone you were setting on this subject. And that, in not so small a nutshell, is that. 
Er uh see what, Fithean?What are you talking about? Who said anything about havingto request payment at every change that's offered? I don't see how implementing a methodforsecuring payment for services rendered by image designerswould interfere at all with you're wish to trade services for goods of equal value oryourworking for free. I'm sure the devsare clever enough to come up with something that would be a lot more convenient than you're imagining here. As well assomething you wouldn't have to use at all if you didn't wish to.
Though you may offer, "seeing how a lot of us just dont charge and sometimes i even refuse to take a tip - i do this for the fun of it", as a quick synopsis of how youply your Image Design trade, I think it would be unfair to assume, as you do,that there are a lot of IDers who aren't looking to make any kind of living off their skills. In fact, I know some who would more than likely give you a hard timeforlowering the bar on Image Design bymaking a habit of giving your services away. *shrug*Personally, it makes no difference to me how you play it.
That said, my overall impressionwith the IDers thatI talk to is that they'd appreciate a feature that would help us securepayment forservices. Whether it will ever come along, or come along in any sort of timely fashion, is another story.
Maybe the Devs can address the payment issue through menu. THere is a point when the customer can view and accept the style change; maybe the Devs can add an option for the image makers to tie a price to the style change. When the customer accepts the style change, the cost is automatically deducted. If not enough money, the style change is abort just like TRADEs. The down side is it adds another click for the image making process. As an artisan, I am advocating the reduction of the number of times you have to "click" to do something (trying to avoid the Rep Motion Injury stuff).
Love you Image makers!!!
Good luck!
I am on Naritus Server ID 4,3,4,3 ... 2 days from master ID woot..if anyone On naritus is looking for one.
Let me start by saying that I have tried stating prices up front, and I have found On average, that the Number of clients that I work on drops drastically, If they have quoted Prices, more often than Not, they will Not even look, at what I can do for them, so will Not approach me, as they may Not value Image design from the start. Most ppl that stumble Onto Image design are curious as to what we can do. So quoting a pricemay Intimidate them from even asking questions. When I stopped quoting prices, the Number of customers I worked On shot up, AND Most of those paid More than I would have quoted..... = More Money than if I had quoted.
I had a woman come to me for a couple of changes, I was In the Middle of doing Image design with a fellow ID'er, when she asked for a hair style, At first I was Not too happy about it, But I said to Myself " this is the profession i chose, I need to work with clients..." So I ended Up spending maybe 35 Minutes, with different hairstyle changes ...eyebrows etc... when we were done.,. She paid me 15k for a hairstyle, and Eye Brow change. She paid because of consultation, she wanted My expertise, she says she had been looking for an expert hairstylist, and could Not find one. If I had used a trade window, I would have gotten 1000, maybe 2000 tops.
I get stiffed who doesn't? But for me, I enjoy the interaction with other Players that Image design allows me to have, I really enjoy roleplaying the session. And the client sees that while I am working On them, I never rush then, I do as many changes as they wish to have done, I never show Impatiance as I am doing something I Love, and would do for free if I did Not have to pay for training at My level. AND because of this, Plus My excellent eye , for what goes well with what, Most of My Tips are In the 3 to 5 k area. I get tipped 7 to 8 times Out of 10. And that More than makes up for getting stiffed. A secure trade window for changes would actually Hurt My pocket. I do Not think I have been Lucky. When asked " How Much do I owe you?" I answer " As Much as you feel the work was worth" with a smile On My face, If they tip 500 or 5000 I don't care, I have to remember Not everyone is rich, and even ppl that are Broke today, and don't tip, may come Into a crap load of cash In a couple weeks and pay me 20k for the same service.
The woman I worked On, has refferred others to me, some have paid, some have Not. But I think in general, By Putting service before Business, has Improved My Business, By being focused On taking as Much time as the job needs, and giving the job 110 % of My talents and abilities, I have been tipped a Lot More than I would have Obtained with a trade window. 10 ppl paying 1k < 7 paying 10k, + 3 stiffs. Do the math.
I need to say that while at first the trade window Idea sounds Like a good one, all it does is prevent some of us from getting really good tips, if I quote, and demand 1k for a hairstyle I lose the 9k tip.
On second thought, I have NO problem with the Image Design Secure trade window, On One condition. That I have the Option to Not use it, that I be able to enable, or disable it from the Options menu, Not On a case By case basis, I do Not want to have to disable it everytime I start working on a client, and I want it to remain disabled, and Not have to disable it, every time I log on.
Fact is, that what ppl demanding this do Not realize is, this will HURT your business, all I would have to do is Place in My Bio, that i do not use a trade window, have No upfront fees, and work entirely on tips. And this will spread " why go to so and so? Landaarea works Purely for tips" Next thing you know you lose Business. Why? The mainly curious will Not sate their curiosity, if they need to deal with trade windows, as what to them was meant to be a fun experience becomes Just another Business transaction. Most ppl, that come to me, are having fun rp ing, and that becomes less fun with each Button they or I need to click.
You will also Lose the ppl that Like to have ID done, and have NO cash today, But are used to making Up for it the next time they see you " I will Gladly pay you tuesday, for an Image design today". Many of My repeats will get ID done, and tell me Upfront they have No cash, i tell them " Just remember me next time " and they do. They will Overtip the next time, and I get More On average. So I find that a trade window, for Image design will in the Long run help the Business of those that DON'T use it.
I Have No Objections, as Long as I have the Option to disable it In the Options Menus.