Image Designer Archive
Thread: With the ID minipublish coming to TestCenter…
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Syzygy-Gorath
Tue May 04, 2004 8:30 am
#1
Has it occurred to anyone else that if we don't know what the features of our minipublish are supposed to be we have no benchmark for whether those features are functioning as intended? While I am very excited to be seeing additions to our profession, I'm incredibly upset with the total lack of communication on specifics that's gone on throughout the process. We had no "In Concept" thread because we were told our internal brainstorming was more than sufficient. We had no "In Development" thread because our followup conversations were supposedly good enough not to need one. If this is the case how did things so simple as particle effects being tied to tents slip through the cracks? How did the fact that we want to be able to register, not be tied to static NPC cities to be found get missed?
In short, I am very unhappy with how this was handled by the development team. The lack of communication caused several changes to almost come into being that do not fit with the average ID playstyle, and even then they didn't learn from their mistakes and now want us to test systems whose functionality we don't even know. While communication has seemingly gotten better, the vast majority of replies we and other communities get are brush-offs at best. In order for this game to reach its full potential this sort of "wait and see, we have a great surprise" has to stop.
Darkagent101
Tue May 04, 2004 8:36 am
#2
Syzygy-Gorath wrote:
Has it occurred to anyone else that if we don't know what the features of our minipublish are supposed to be we have no benchmark for whether those features are functioning as intended? While I am very excited to be seeing additions to our profession, I'm incredibly upset with the total lack of communication on specifics that's gone on throughout the process. We had no "In Concept" thread because we were told our internal brainstorming was more than sufficient. We had no "In Development" thread because our followup conversations were supposedly good enough not to need one. If this is the case how did things so simple as particle effects being tied to tents slip through the cracks? How did the fact that we want to be able to register, not be tied to static NPC cities to be found get missed?
In short, I am very unhappy with how this was handled by the development team. The lack of communication caused several changes to almost come into being that do not fit with the average ID playstyle, and even then they didn't learn from their mistakes and now want us to test systems whose functionality we don't even know. While communication has seemingly gotten better, the vast majority of replies we and other communities get are brush-offs at best. In order for this game to reach its full potential this sort of "wait and see, we have a great surprise" has to stop.
While I agree in ways with your post, the situation as it relates to ID is a sort of catch 22 for us.
We think that some of the changes MAY or MAY NOT be counteracting current ID playstyles, but we don't know half of what we're getting and therefore can't complain about it until it's been implemented. I don't want to sound like TH (J/K TH... we know you try...) but all I can say is... wait and see.
NJ62
Tue May 04, 2004 8:41 am
#3
I think the argument is that it's irrelevant whether the changes are positive or negative, our worst fears or our wildest dreams, minor or sweeping. We still need better communication about them. The chefs and the smugglers and every other profession revamp got more warning and feedback than we did.
Granted, Sony does not have to communicate with us. But SOE has chosen to communicate with us and is striving for even better communication. Sony needs to follow through with this commitment to communication consistently.
Message Edited by NJ62 on 05-04-2004 08:42 AM
Syzygy-Gorath
Tue May 04, 2004 8:45 am
#4
Darkagent101 wrote:
Syzygy-Gorath wrote:
Has it occurred to anyone else that if we don't know what the features of our minipublish are supposed to be we have no benchmark for whether those features are functioning as intended? While I am very excited to be seeing additions to our profession, I'm incredibly upset with the total lack of communication on specifics that's gone on throughout the process. We had no "In Concept" thread because we were told our internal brainstorming was more than sufficient. We had no "In Development" thread because our followup conversations were supposedly good enough not to need one. If this is the case how did things so simple as particle effects being tied to tents slip through the cracks? How did the fact that we want to be able to register, not be tied to static NPC cities to be found get missed?
In short, I am very unhappy with how this was handled by the development team. The lack of communication caused several changes to almost come into being that do not fit with the average ID playstyle, and even then they didn't learn from their mistakes and now want us to test systems whose functionality we don't even know. While communication has seemingly gotten better, the vast majority of replies we and other communities get are brush-offs at best. In order for this game to reach its full potential this sort of "wait and see, we have a great surprise" has to stop.
While I agree in ways with your post, the situation as it relates to ID is a sort of catch 22 for us.
We think that some of the changes MAY or MAY NOT be counteracting current ID playstyles, but we don't know half of what we're getting and therefore can't complain about it until it's been implemented. I don't want to sound like TH (J/K TH... we know you try...) but all I can say is... wait and see.
That's exactly my point—wait and see doesn't cut it. Wait and see nearly got our particle effects tied to 5 static locations. Wait and see leaves us with dull, drab, dim tent interiors. This is not what we asked for and not what we want—why are we allowing ourselves to be cowed by the promise of glitter? We were given a chance to have our profession made (almost) exactly what we want it, and I feel like so many of the most basic things were overlooked because of a simple breakdown in communication. We got lucky in that we got particle effects untied from the tents. But what do they do instead? What if that's even worse? All of this could have been avoided with some basic communication. Instead we get devs lurking the forums and misinterpreting the results of our poll threads—would it be so hard to ask if what they're implementing is what we meant in those threads?
Edit: Getting back into the annoyed by the lack of communication problem, forgot the positive side. Let's say everything goes perfectly and ID becomes exactly what all of us want it to be—now we go to test it and something isn't working right, but we don't know that because we don't know how it's supposed to work.
Message Edited by Syzygy-Gorath on 05-04-2004 11:48 AM
Sir_Voor
Tue May 04, 2004 8:51 am
#5
I Hate complaining when they are giving us so much, but your right. The lack communication we are getting from the devs is disheartening, I think we have proven to all that read this forum we give good feedback. And not to be asked or informedaboutanything in the past few weeks leading up to our first majorpublishis not a good way to do things.
I know they have their reasons, but!
Gyopi
Tue May 04, 2004 9:14 am
#6
Lack of communication has always been a big problem with the developers of this game. I can understand three reasons for it. First, if you give infomation ahead of time it might get exploited. I don't think that is the the reason in this case. Second is that plans can change and they don't want to seem like they are breaking promises. I think that they should realize that this forum (and the tailors and a few others) are full of constructive and mature people who understand that things sometimes change. If we knew what was planned we could make lots of suggestions and comprimise in some places to make things go a lot smoother! Right now they can only bounce ideas off of three correspondents to help things go better. Finally if they actually tried to communicate what was going on, they would be flooded with hundreds of messages telling them how stupid they are for working on image design when they could do something worthwhile (work on their profession). I understand that this is a turn off, but it is kind of part of the job. The least they could do is allow the correspondents to not be so tight lipped and get more information out.
Syzygy-Gorath
Tue May 04, 2004 9:52 am
#7
I'd actually prefer it that way—whenever a dev directly contacts us we get a stream of redname followers and the forum's a mess for days. Hate it! But that's part of what the corres are there for, to act as a conduit for information back and forth between the developers and the communities; they deserve to be told what's going on and to be allowed to pass along that information in a timely manner.
Gyopi wrote:
Lack of communication has always been a big problem with the developers of this game. I can understand three reasons for it. First, if you give infomation ahead of time it might get exploited. I don't think that is the the reason in this case. Second is that plans can change and they don't want to seem like they are breaking promises. I think that they should realize that this forum (and the tailors and a few others) are full of constructive and mature people who understand that things sometimes change. If we knew what was planned we could make lots of suggestions and comprimise in some places to make things go a lot smoother! Right now they can only bounce ideas off of three correspondents to help things go better. Finally if they actually tried to communicate what was going on, they would be flooded with hundreds of messages telling them how stupid they are for working on image design when they could do something worthwhile (work on their profession). I understand that this is a turn off, but it is kind of part of the job. The least they could do is allow the correspondents to not be so tight lipped and get more information out.
Darkagent101
Tue May 04, 2004 10:31 am
#8
Syzygy-Gorath wrote:
(...snip...)But that's part of what the corres are there for, to act as a conduit for information back and forth between the developers and the communities; they deserve to be told what's going on and to be allowed to pass along that information in a timely manner.
Gyopi wrote:
The least they could do is allow the correspondents to not be so tight lipped and get more information out.
But would you rather a lot of wrong information or a few snipets of stuff that's true. Last-minute decisions are the name of the game, (really, SWG translate... nevermind. Serious discussion now, humor later). The dev's have been flamed in the past for saying one thing and changing it in the end. If you see withholding information from the community until totally confirmed as bad communication, then it's the community who's to blame for that.
I'll be the first to admit that I'm frustrated and worried about the lack of info for us ATM. I've outright said it here before. But I'm sure that when the time comes, we WILL know what is and is not intended for the publish.
I suppose, as a whole, your right, Syzygy. Communication is lacking. The Bio-engineers have had their fixes and they STIILL don't know how some of their core systems work. BE's also had the equivalent of a ID and IC forum. Has it possibly occured to anyone that the DEV's, through the ID publish/boards, are trying out a new and better way to communicate throught to the players? They are relying much more on the correspondant to keep the discussions in-line, filter out the issues, and present them as-needed. On that charge I think Kwee has done a VERY good job. She knows, as part of the community, which issues to bring to the DEV's attention, which ones to poll us about, which ones may raise complaints or allay fears on. THAT'S why I say give it a chance. Wait and see. It's not as much my faith in the Dev team as my faith in Kwee.
Syzygy-Gorath
Tue May 04, 2004 10:40 am
#9
Darkagent101 wrote:
Syzygy-Gorath wrote:
(...snip...)But that's part of what the corres are there for, to act as a conduit for information back and forth between the developers and the communities; they deserve to be told what's going on and to be allowed to pass along that information in a timely manner.
Gyopi wrote:
The least they could do is allow the correspondents to not be so tight lipped and get more information out.
But would you rather a lot of wrong information or a few snipets of stuff that's true. Last-minute decisions are the name of the game, (really, SWG translate... nevermind. Serious discussion now, humor later). The dev's have been flamed in the past for saying one thing and changing it in the end. If you see withholding information from the community until totally confirmed as bad communication, then it's the community who's to blame for that.
I'll be the first to admit that I'm frustrated and worried about the lack of info for us ATM. I've outright said it here before. But I'm sure that when the time comes, we WILL know what is and is not intended for the publish.
I suppose, as a whole, your right, Syzygy. Communication is lacking. The Bio-engineers have had their fixes and they STIILL don't know how some of their core systems work. BE's also had the equivalent of a ID and IC forum. Has it possibly occured to anyone that the DEV's, through the ID publish/boards, are trying out a new and better way to communicate throught to the players? They are relying much more on the correspondant to keep the discussions in-line, filter out the issues, and present them as-needed. On that charge I think Kwee has done a VERY good job. She knows, as part of the community, which issues to bring to the DEV's attention, which ones to poll us about, which ones may raise complaints or allay fears on. THAT'S why I say give it a chance. Wait and see. It's not as much my faith in the Dev team as my faith in Kwee.
If that's the case, not letting her tell us very much isn't the best way to go about it in my opinion. There are going to be hiccups no matter how it's done, and there are going to be trolls and complaints and everything else that follows a project of this magnitude—it just seems to me that catering to the mature, constructive players rather than catering to no one for fear of the trolls would be the way to go. /shrug
Edit: And yes, I'd rather have an update every day and new changes as they happen than a final tally an hour before it goes live when I can't do a damn thing about it.
Message Edited by Syzygy-Gorath on 05-04-2004 01:42 PM
Sir_Voor
Tue May 04, 2004 10:42 am
#10
I would like to add that over all SWG communication and dev style has been the best I have ever seen. To put into a analogue, this is like finding a scratch on a Rolls-Royce, your still happy that it a Rolls-Royce but that scratch is driving you nuts.
Gyopi
Tue May 04, 2004 10:47 am
#11
Darkagent101 wrote:
I suppose, as a whole, your right, Syzygy. Communication is lacking. The Bio-engineers have had their fixes and they STIILL don't know how some of their core systems work. BE's also had the equivalent of a ID and IC forum. Has it possibly occured to anyone that the DEV's, through the ID publish/boards, are trying out a new and better way to communicate throught to the players? They are relying much more on the correspondant to keep the discussions in-line, filter out the issues, and present them as-needed. On that charge I think Kwee has done a VERY good job. She knows, as part of the community, which issues to bring to the DEV's attention, which ones to poll us about, which ones may raise complaints or allay fears on. THAT'S why I say give it a chance. Wait and see. It's not as much my faith in the Dev team as my faith in Kwee.
I know that Kwee is letting the devs know what the issues are and knows what the ID community in general wants. I would just prefer that communication goes in both directions! Right now they read our posts or Kwee talks to them, they take that information and do what they feel is best and if they need more information that ask Kwee for it. She is not allowed to say anything at all, so she puts up a poll or something which may or may not have anything to do with what is actually going on, gets the information and gives it to the Devs. The communication is completely one-way. Information is *never* allowed to filter back to us, usually until it is already on testcenter. If there is a problem that is keeping something from being done, Kwee can not ask us directly because that would give away what is happening, so we only get indirect polls and that sort of thing. As a result, we rely completely on her and the devs to come up with ideas that will help them. We have a lot of potential here, but by keeping us completely on a "need to know" system, they are not properly using that potential. Kwee does a wonderful job as our correspondent and I don't think it is possible for anyone to do any better! She is still only one human being, however.
Message Edited by Gyopi on 05-04-2004 02:03 PM
Darkagent101
Tue May 04, 2004 10:58 am
#12
Syzygy-Gorath wrote:
If that's the case, not letting her tell us very much isn't the best way to go about it in my opinion. There are going to be hiccups no matter how it's done, and there are going to be trolls and complaints and everything else that follows a project of this magnitude—it just seems to me that catering to the mature, constructive players rather than catering to no one for fear of the trolls would be the way to go. /shrug
Edit: And yes, I'd rather have an update every day and new changes as they happen than a final tally an hour before it goes live when I can't do a damn thing about it.
The dev's aren't catering to anyone, your right. They tell the Correspondant the information, tell them what they can and can't say. If the correspondant feels that an issue on her no-go list may raise heat, she will ask to bring it up or find a non-revealing way to pull up the issue. The way they are doing it now, the burden of communication is shifted from the Developement team to the Correspondants.
Allright. I give up. We'll see how effective the new system is come 8.1.
((Darkagent101 is starting to get worked up over this forum thread and feels it is impairing her ability to constructively argue the topic. Please excuse her...))
EDIT: Gyopi makes a good point... maybe communication IS semi-one-way... but that semi-one-way communication may or may not work. We just don't know... yet.
Message Edited by Darkagent101 on 05-04-2004 11:02 AM
Gyopi
Tue May 04, 2004 11:16 am
#13
Darkagent101 wrote:
EDIT: Gyopi makes a good point... maybe communication IS semi-one-way... but that semi-one-way communication may or may not work. We just don't know... yet.
Well, I am certainly not saying it won't work. It very well might. I just think it would be more efficient with more two-way communication and leave them with time to do other things that they want to do.
I am having another problem with communication right now too. Some information needs to go directly to the players of the game! Right now there are a *lot* (probably most of have seen them) of people who think that the ID tents are there so that they will be able to image design themselves. When this turns out not be the case and we also charge decent prices for our services this is going to be percieved as a nerf that wepushed for so that we could gouge people with our high prices. I wish that someone in charge would *please* post publicly that the tents are not now and never were intended as a place where people could image design themselves. As a tailor I already get enough resentment for the decay that we never asked for!
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