Force Sensitive Archive

Thread: Why Force Sensitive DOES need a revamp

RaidCasto
Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:32 pm
#1

When they originally revamped force-sensetive from hologrinding, the idea was that people could just play the game and get the xp the need to be a jedi, instead of constantly grinding professions. However, since the CU came out, the only way to get xp, is by taking missions, not doing the actual content(ie Kash, most mobs are lvl 49 or lower). Now its just another grind you have to do to be a jedi again, and the game suffers again. They DO need to revamp either how xp is gotten(all creatures like before) or how jedi is gotten(what everyone wants), because running Bol missions over n over just isnt fun. And before anyone tells me "then dont be a jedi", I dont care if I am or not, but as an old player I saw all my friends/guild members run off to be dancers and grind evry other profession once and now I see them do nothing but grind pikets n bols. For the good of the game they need to change how jedi is gotten.



Raid Casto-Rebel, demoted to Sergeant from Colonel, working my way back up/Profession--Commando/Proud member of The Big Game Hunters/Rebel Ace Pilot
Caid 'Gut' Casto Imperial private(spy)-+12/15/17 Shipwright/Smuggler's Alliance Ace pilot


***MAYOR*** of Krayt Oasis, Tattooine.
***Guild Leader, The Big Game Hunters***
SWEzekiel
Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:57 am
#2

I can see your point, but it is the only way of making it so Jedi cannot be gotten straight away. It takes time.


"So make a series of quests" peopel will say. They HAVE, but look on the forums, guides for them have been written straight away! What would be the point if you knew EXACTLY how to get jedi and coudl just follow a guide. It would defeat the point and there woudl be loads of jedi, which is why you need a LOT of xp now.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ezekiel - Jedi Padawan
RaidCasto
Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:06 am
#3


Anyone remeber when base raids used to be fun? Exploring? Big group hunts? GCW??? Now its slaughter bols, drive to village, rinse, repeat. EVERYONE wants to be a jedi. Make it a regular profession so people quit devoting their entire game to it, then cant drop it, I think you'll actually see LESS jedi. Think about it.



Raid Casto-Rebel, demoted to Sergeant from Colonel, working my way back up/Profession--Commando/Proud member of The Big Game Hunters/Rebel Ace Pilot
Caid 'Gut' Casto Imperial private(spy)-+12/15/17 Shipwright/Smuggler's Alliance Ace pilot


***MAYOR*** of Krayt Oasis, Tattooine.
***Guild Leader, The Big Game Hunters***
JaxMeridian
Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:42 am
#4

I saw something on another thread that makes a lot of good common sence to me: A Jedi theme park where you KNOW where to go to get what you need. My alternative would be for a player that wants to be a Jedi to get FS tha same way they do now, with POI's and Content Badges, but when the "Ol'Man comes, he gives you a Force Crystal with the Waypoint to the Valley of the Jedi. Once you go there, you meed the Great Masters of your chosen side of the Force, either Light or Dark. You start out with Old Obi Wan, one of the "Blue Glowies" ( a Force ghost) who gives you relevent missions on the different branches of the FS tree. The missions would be hard for a player of CL 80. You would have to do them alone... NO GROUPING. Everyone would know going in that you have to be a CL 80 to complete them. Each set of missions deals with content and lessons about the branch of the FS tree that you want to do ( require 6 branches at least, just like now). Have several missions, a set number, like seven, that have to be completed in a set time frame. No more cycles, but hard enough that anyone doing them will really have to be committed.


After Obi Wan, you go to the next famous Jedi trainer, Qui gon Jin ( also a Blue Glowie, as all of the teachers should be).He'll give missions, very hard for a CL 80, but possible, that have to be done alone. Same as before, content relevent, for, say... Lightsaber training. You train in Basic Saber and get that done, but with the basics. make them like Politician, no SP.


Then you move on to the next trainer, Mace Windu, ( also, BTW, a Force Ghost), who teaches Force Powers Basics. So forth and so on.


At the end of this process, you finally get to the Greatest Jedi Master of them all, the Blue Glowie of Yoda. Yoda sends you on your Padawan Trials, which consist of several missions that teach you the meaning of being a Jedi in the World. The missions must, again, be performed alone. But this time they are complicated by the fact that they must be done in public. This means that, to complete you trials for Padawan, you get Visibility, and as a consequence, have to fight and/or dodge Bounty Hunters all throu-out the missions. IF you complete the missions, you are a Padawan, and sent to the Enclave to train to be a Knight.


When you get through with the earliest part, you are told to make your training Saber. This first lightsaber that you can craft is a suckie one, and the only one you can use during your training with the initial trainers. All this is just for the FS trees. You can't train ANY of the Jedi Trees till you get to the Enclave.


Once you get to the Enclave, you are told that the Knight Trials consist of two things: #1) You have to complete missions PVP for the faction that you are in,and these are again, hard. #2) spend enough time after each mission gaining the Jedi Experience that you need. FIRST you have to do the mission for whatever branch of the Jedi tree that you want to fill, and then get the XP doing JEDI things. If you want to Master the tree that you're in, you have a Master Mission for that (No XP for this one.).


This plan allows the Jedi to progress through the whole thing with Content. It puts the BH in the mix in an important way, and it makes it so that, if you are hunted, you can't run forever. You never lose Visability ever during this period, and to make it better on yourself, just kill the Hunter that is on your trail for this mission.


After you get Jedi Knight, you are eligible to enter the FRS. Then you start out with no visibility. At your Graduation, you are told that Jedi is a Dangerous life, which you now KNOW. You are to keep your Path a secret, but still be a Jedi. If you are flashy, you get vis., and get Hunted again. If you keep a low profile, you don't. Naturally, as full templated Jedi, you are not goping to keep a low profile all the time, so everyone gets their content. Jedi would still be Permanent PVP, just like now, only it starts as soon as you get to your first FS trainer. In addition to this, add Jedi Mission Terminals. On these are PVP Missions that Jedi can do to further the Alliance. I think that these missions would add content for the Jedi Profession, and encourage them to do things that involve them in the GCW, which they are supposed to do anyway. Missions would be anything from helping in a trade dispute where BH's have the option of messing things up by putting pressure on the Jedi ( BH mission for this would be to stop the Jedi doing the Mission) , to fighting in a Battle for a Player Battle event. THESE type missions, the GCW battles by players, could be whaere the Rebellion comes into the mix. The Organizers of the event could say " we need a Jedi to help out in this Battle", anfd go to the Jedi Terminal ( discretely hidden), and place an ad on there for a Jedi to help in their PVP event Battle. The Organizers would pay no credits for the Jedi's help, but the Jedi would get a payment that is adjusted for their level in the FRS from the enclave.


Ideas? Comments?





Tzhar Khune
Elder Bounty Hunter,New Order Jedi
Member of CorBa
Server- Bria
"Yeah, I'm a Corellian, wanna make something of it?"
JaxMeridian
Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:44 am
#5



Sorry, duplicate post.

Message Edited by JaxMeridian on 07-16-2005 07:46 AM



Tzhar Khune
Elder Bounty Hunter,New Order Jedi
Member of CorBa
Server- Bria
"Yeah, I'm a Corellian, wanna make something of it?"
RaidCasto
Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:28 am
#6

Not a bad idea, except at this time in the gameYoda isnt dead yet. Yes, Id like to see a better quest than drive here, kill sith, move on to next wp, wtc.... But thats not the point of this post. The point here is to get people to stop devoting their entire time online to grinding over n over. Theres space. Theres dungeons. Theres a galactic civil war. Theres big fun things to hunt like goraxes, rancorsn krayts. So much to do, yet where is 75% of the population? Dant mining Op. What happened to Coronet?(well, JTL helped). What happened to Dath outpost rancor hunts? What happened to guild setting up faction bases and having huge pvp battles to blow them up. All gone, to endless slaughter Bols. Sad. Jedi should be rare, but theyre not anymore, just make it available to everyone so its not the be all end all of this game.



Raid Casto-Rebel, demoted to Sergeant from Colonel, working my way back up/Profession--Commando/Proud member of The Big Game Hunters/Rebel Ace Pilot
Caid 'Gut' Casto Imperial private(spy)-+12/15/17 Shipwright/Smuggler's Alliance Ace pilot


***MAYOR*** of Krayt Oasis, Tattooine.
***Guild Leader, The Big Game Hunters***
ModestoFeast
Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:49 am
#7


The path to becoming a jedi should be very long and difficult, but I'm afraid your scenario would probably be too long and too difficult, and in the end would turn people off. I think the developers are caught between not making the jedi path so easy that anyone and everyone will do it (although as it is now, I still think too many do it), and actually not making it so hard that people will biotch and whine about it.


But the bottom line is, the old holo grind was just that - nothing but a profession grind. Now, the new "revamped" jedi path is still a grind. But now it's been reduced to doing Bol missions at the mining outpost over and over and over and over.


A grind is a grind is a grind. Until the dev's find a way to make it so the end result of everything isn't a mindless grind, the system will be forever stuck in a rut.


sharpenedstick
Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:02 am
#8


The problem with the Jedi numbers in SWG is really rather simple. The devs have relied on the wrong filter.Just about theonly mechanism the devs are using to "control"Jedi population figures is an entry barrier. That is, they have placed pre-requisites in the way of Jedihood; namely, lots and lots of mindless, pointless, tedious timesinks. In fact, they have redundant timesinks. Bad as the FS grind can be, the Jedi grind is much worse (if done atk). The problem with an entry barrier is that, eventually, the game will have reached a point where anyone who tries can overcome it. That's essentially where we are now. If you are a casual player and you started grinding when the villiage came out, you are probably a paddy by now, or at least pretty close. That's why the Jedi population has been growing; because over time entirely new waves of people are completing their part of the months long grind.


It is a foregone conclusion that people are going to try to be Jedi. I know. I did. And so will many of you. SOE knows Jedi are a major selling point. It even said you could be a Jedi on the box way before there was any way you could ever achieve it in game. Jedi are going nowhere. They are here to stay. Thus, given that SWG only uses an entry barrier, and given that many people want Jedi, it makes sense that we will see more and more of them. What, then, are the solutions?


1) Raise the entry barrier: This is the one I expect to see, simply because it is the easiest and that seems to be the sole criteria used by the devs for anything of importance. (Well, either that or scrapping the entire system and replacing it with something a lot dumber ala CU) They've done it once before. The villiage is much harder (or at least longer)than the hologrind, even after they raised the number of professions you needed to hologrind from five to eight. I wouldn't be very surprised if SOE further complicating things by making two enclaves, one where you trade in xp and one where you learn skills. Or they could increase the xp count per box, require more lines, or do any number of other things to raise the entry barrier.


2)Hardcap the population: We will never see this. Everyone wants a Jedi, and SOE is going to give everyone a chance. Personally, I think everyone should have a chance. After all, I have a Jedi, so why shouldn't you. However, they could hardcap the number of Jedi currently in game at any one time. They won't do that either, especially with all the sneering that goes on here about WoW and their queues. Nevertheless, it would be an option.


3) Make an exit filter: Most commonly suggested in the form of permadeath, an exit filter is a way of filtering out Jedi by permanently (or semi-permanently) removing Jedi characters. Permadeath is never coming back (which, as an old D2 Hardcore player, is a little disappointing). Neither will Jedi likely see a death timer or any other barrier to play. However, it is an option.


4) Progression filters: This is currently the only other component of SOE's population control strategy. The Jedi grind is terrible, and low level Jedi blow. This is intentional, as it is meant to weed people out. Unfortunately, not only isn't it very fun, but it also instills in the Jedi community that oft stated sense of entitlement. After going through the Jedi grind, most players would naturally feel like they deserve something extraordinary. If you aren't a Jedi it's easy to critize this mindset, but if you'd done the grind, you'd feel the same way.


5) Modify game play of Jedi through incentives: People say soloing is still possible post-CU, and their right. Technically, I can go off and kill things alone. However, practically, this isn't really accurate. Grouping post-CU is simply too efficient. In fact, the game takes pains to remind you at every turn how you're getting bonuses for grouping, be it xp or harvesting. Thus, if we can iron out a "preferred" method of Jedi play, we can shape player behavior by either rewarding it, or punishing its opposite. For instance, if we don't want to see Jedi grinding with non-Jedi, we can assess a penalty to xp to groups with Jedi and non-Jedi together. Or we can give bonus xp to any group all of one type. The same is true in pvp. You say Jedi ruin the GCW? Well, we can have enemy troopers spawn at factional pvp fights that involve Jedi.


This, I think, is the best option. You control Jedi by changing the focus. Currently the focus, and the difficulty, is becoming then levelling your Jedi. Once you are a Jedi, you play in the same game as everyone else, just as a "super" class (The reality is most Jedi are far from super. A full templated Jedi is probably better than any single character, but not anywhere near the 1.5x "promised" ). But what should happen is that the game should shift the way it behaves towards you. Jedi shouldmeet a game hostile to their survival. Travel should be interrupted by ambushes of NPC hunters sent by the emperor. Light Jedi should encounter needypeople with various quests. And so on.


In the end,putting all the focus on the entry barrier is a stupid strategy, and it isn't going to solve anything. We need a good Jedi system, because they aren't going anywhere and people aren't going to stop workingtowards them.
IonControl
Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:18 am
#9

Holy CRAP Sharp! That is, quite possibly, the best post I have EVER read on here. It's intelligent, insightful, well-written. Dang! I gotta hand it to you! THAT needs to be stickied just for it's eloquence and accuracy. Bravo! :beer:



SOE's favorite Star Wars Quote:
"I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further..."

Caras Galadon: Born Feb 15, 2003 : Died Dec 14, 2005
Happy-go-lucky Jedi. The last of his kind...
NGE drove me to WoW. "Working as intended"?
Fellstaff
Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:23 pm
#10






RaidCasto wrote:

Not a bad idea, except at this time in the gameYoda isnt dead yet. Yes, Id like to see a better quest than drive here, kill sith, move on to next wp, wtc.... But thats not the point of this post. The point here is to get people to stop devoting their entire time online to grinding over n over.


Um... There are still powergamers out there that just wanna grind, camp and get the uber loot. They don't wanna explore, socialize or anything else. There have always been power gamers out there, but this game really has only one style because you have to do repetitive missions for experience. they did say they were reworking the planets so there would be planets appropriate for different player levels so you'd be guaranteed to get exp from every kill if you did want to just wander around.




---
Isa Lodeah - pre-pub 9 FSCS unlock (31/32), post-CU Padawan
Onib - pre-pub 9 Jedi Initiate 4134, post-CU full template Padawan
JaxMeridian
Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:52 pm
#11

Hey Fellstaff, I'm a CL 47 now ( I just went up 7 levels Friday), where is the Planet for the CL 39 through 50 crew? I have been trying to level for the past week when O was 39, and everything I foind on the different planet was either too high ( couldn't kill) or too low ( no XP per kill).



Tzhar Khune
Elder Bounty Hunter,New Order Jedi
Member of CorBa
Server- Bria
"Yeah, I'm a Corellian, wanna make something of it?"
RaidCasto
Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:17 pm
#12

Superb post sharpened, why cant you be a dev??? I agree with you on pretty much all points, except Jedi having a different game, because then the jedi will do those things, and then its less people to do space, gcw, hints, etc... People are always going to do different things, but grinding should be just to achieve your characters profession and thats it, not the be all end all which jedi makes it be because of the required xp.



Raid Casto-Rebel, demoted to Sergeant from Colonel, working my way back up/Profession--Commando/Proud member of The Big Game Hunters/Rebel Ace Pilot
Caid 'Gut' Casto Imperial private(spy)-+12/15/17 Shipwright/Smuggler's Alliance Ace pilot


***MAYOR*** of Krayt Oasis, Tattooine.
***Guild Leader, The Big Game Hunters***
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