Force Sensitive Archive

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Iakimo wrote:

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vinterthoor wrote:
Yeah, you can make Jedi as hard as you want to attain but people will do "the grind" because as far as combat goes Jedi rule pvp and can do most high end content with little trouble.

There is only one way to make Jedi rare. Everyone knows what it is. While jedi remains the most elite combat prof everyone will want it. Make other combat profs more effective than jedi and you'll see the population go down. Other than that there is no solution.

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Actually, Vinterthoor, there are other ways. Here's what I would suggest...

First, to expand on your lead, I wouldcreatea "Legends" system for every elite profession above Master, with high-level proficiencies, certifications, and abilities. I think of this in terms of a Black Belt Karate expert. Yeah, he's good, and he's a master of his craft, but how many 1st-dan Black Belts are legends of the stature of a Bruce Lee? More to the point, how many 1st-dan Black Belts possessed Lee's level of dedication?

This is what I would give the player base: an opportunity (if they choose to)to take their chosen profession to the level of truly legendary proficiency. And I would make that journey every bit as arduous and rewarding as the quest for Jedi Knight. And it is at this rarified level is where players would EARN the skills they need to go toe-to-toe with a fully-realized Jedi Knight. Teras Kasi Masters and Fencers would obtain the Dodge bonuses they need to avoid having their limbs hacked off (a risk that should be as ever-present for melee types as Saber Block currently is for ranged types); Bounty Hunters and Pistoleers would gain a functioning Disarming Shot; Pikemen would gain a Polearm Dervish of diabolical complexity; Commandos would learn how to blanket an area with a blast of flame that even a Jedi couldn't avoid; and Creature Handlers would gain a degree of empathy with creatures of such magnitude that they could control creatures of such power and ferocity that even a Jedi Knight would be given second thoughts. Either that or one of those snazzy Geonosian acklay prods....

Second,I would implementsome sort of "Death of a Legend" system -- not as drastic as the old Jedi Permadeath, but where, when we died and cloned, we would temporarily lose our legendary or Jedi skills until we passed a series of recertifying trials. And yes, it would cut both ways! BOTH Jedi and conventionally-driven Legends would risk the loss of their status, just to be fair.

This set of trials or period of training would last some suitably annoying amount of time to give this "death penalty" a reasonable amount of sting, anywhere from three days to two weeks, depending on the proper "feel" for the idea. It would be modifiable somewhat, depending on how aggressively the player seeks to re-establish his connection with the Force or his finely-honed level of conditioning -- but if the player chooses to do nothing, he loses the ability to get it back. Jedi lose their Force status; Legends lose their edge.

This whole two-tiered systemwould be implemented instead of the Great Saber Block/Saber Damage-Type Nerf. We don't need to make Jedi just another melee class; we need to give the combat professions a way to aspire to legendary status in their own right! And that, my friends, is the ultimate answer to the question of Jedi ubiquity.

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Message Edited by Yterbium on 04-09-2005 04:54 AM

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Jedi_Xan wrote:

I got flamed out of existence almost over my idea, but as I read, it is about the same as what everyone else is saying.... here it is in a nutshell.

step 1 ** visibility is gained and the jedi is then placed on the BH terms (current)

step 2 ** bounty hunters have failed to stop the jedi visibility. the empire orders elite dark nova troopers to "apprehend" the jedi. (ie -- try to kill him).

step 3 ** either the Jedi has gotten away at this point, or was previously killed and did not learn. The jedi has obtained a "max" visibility and is now gotten the attention of the emperor. The emperor dispatches vader himself to rid the empire of this jedi.

The affected jedi can fight vader, but this is a very tough battle.

Vader 500-750K HAM, 95% resists, and unlimited Force pool. MasterJedi strength and speed,with full control of all aspects of the Force. And he hits like a frieght train. 3000-5000 damage.

To beat Vader and escape permadeath, the jedi must reduce Vader to 50% Ham. If the jedi loses, he is finished and is killed by Darth Vader.

Oh, one last thing.

If the victim Jedi is grouped when Vader shows, all other group members are instantly slain and cloned. The victim jedi will have to do this alone.

To escape this onslaught, the Jedi need only to go into hiding till which time he can be removed from the terms (ie fall off the terms).

Message Edited by Jedi_Xan on 04-06-2005 01:52 PM

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Hmmm...I think I like this idea! And it would fit with what the devs used to promise us about having encounters with Mara Jade and Vader if your Jedi got too visible.

One thing, though, I wouldn't instantly slay the other members of the group, I would automatically spawn enough nigh-invincible nova troopers WITH Vader, each of which would auto-select one of the group members present, so that everyone had something to occupy them while Vader did what he came to do. If a group member defeated the trooper, then they could join in the fight with Vader. If the trooper won the victim died and the trooper would watch Vader work as they did in Episode IV. If by some miracle the Jedi managed to defeat (not kill) Vader, then the troopers would attack him.

The only solution for a Jedi who gained the Emperor's attention would be to remain out of large cities, in the boondocks and breakwaters of the galaxy, until the visibility wore off. And ANY additions to the visibility in range of Imperial NPCs should result in a visit from Mara to "flush" the Jedi out.

To stay alive at that point would require staying on the move, never hitting the main cities, and using your own ship to fly everywhere. Moreover, the constant hounding by Mara Jade and the possible visit from Vader would both fit the continuity of Star Wars while ALSO adding to the game content!

Perhaps in time it would be possible to even add an option to "join us or die" as in the movie, though I am not sure how that would work. Potentially, if a Jedi became well-known enough, with a truly incomprehensible visibility, they might get a visit from the Emperor himself. This would result in instant death, of course, since we all know only Vader is strong enough to kill Palpatine, but this would be a better exit system than simple permadeath.

I like this idea alot.

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Iakimo wrote:

So to summarize the three sets of ideas for increasing Jedi rarity, we so far have:

1. Increase the length of the Jedi grind: This only delays the inevitable, and adds even more torture on top of the torturous Jedi grind.


2. Nerf Jedi to make them less popular: Is this SOE's approach? Time will tell....


3. Give all the conventional profs a super-elite/legendary option beyond Mastery: Everyone wins. Players get more challenge and incentive to develop their characters over the long term; the devs get a new carrot-on-a-stick to keep players in-game and spending their cash for renewal of their subscriptions; more people choose non-Jedi career alternatives; and the L337 doobz actually have to earn the right to type, "PWNJOO!!"and quit the game in frustration and go back to playing their hacked Counterstrike toons. #3 for the win!

I was thinking about ways to deal with game balance in the environment. Here's what I came up with:

1. Have most of the random spawns occur as normal, but insert an if/then statement into the creature code as follows: IFa Jedi or Legend-level character's attacks occur, THEN the creature is given a chance to enter a new, intensified "Berserk" mode. It becomes tougher and more resistant to some determined types of damage; it gets more HAM and/or partially heals; and it gains faster and stronger attacks. The experience reward for killing a creature that goes berserk increases proportionately.


2. Have it so that when a spawn is killed off, the game does another IF/THEN check: IF a Jedi or Legend/level character is still in the area when the site spawns its next group of critters, they have a chance to upgrade to a tougher subtype of that creature. For example, a random Graul Mauler spawn might respawn as Graul Manglers, Frenzied Grauls, Ancient Grauls, or a Graul Marauder.

The game already somewhat balances the environment by ramping downward the difficulty level of creature spawns closer to cities. In addition to these two suggestions, Iwould create a few additional "pockets" of higher-level creatures, along the lines of Dathomir's Rancor Valley. After all, Ben Kenobi did say, "The Jundland Wastes are not to be traveled lightly...." Maybe not all of the Jundland Wastes, but a few hotspots would be nice....

Ultimately, all any RPG is, is numbers. I have x level of skill; my opponent has y defensive ability, generating a damage table N(1), from which results are randomized. If x goes up in such a way that it's too high relative to y, then a good game designer will find a creative way to raise y. As a person who has dabbled with RPG's since the release of Dungeons & Dragons, (and yes, I'm revealing my age!) it doesn't seem too difficult....

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/salute

A pleasure to see a fellow old-schooler in the forums. Remember when a +1 dagger meant something?

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Yterbium wrote:

/salute

A pleasure to see a fellow old-schooler in the forums. Remember when a +1 dagger meant something?

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