Fencer Archive
Thread: Fencing Specific Issues
Stun Batons:Our elite weapon iscompletely useless even as a situational weapon. Let's do a simple comparison. Let's say we have a stun baton which is made to do 50-100 dmg at 3.0 attack speed, which, correct if I'm wrong, is godlike stats for a stun baton (when a master weaponsmith made mine, I believe it was something like 45-94, 3.4). Now on the otherhand, we have sword B, which is a fairly mediocre curved or rykk sword (it doesn't really matter) which is 50-150 at 2.5 speed. Both weapons are AR Piercing0. Sword B does regular kinetic dmg, while the stun baton does the much fabled 'stun damage', the so-called "bane of armor."
The DPS on the Stun Baton would be 150/2/3 which is 25.
The DPS on Mediocre Sword B is 200/2/2.5 which is 40.
Our Mediocre Sword here has a 62.5% greater DPS than our godlike stun baton. And unless I'm mistaken that directly translates to the armor protectiveness of the creature we are fighting. A creature or player would have to have 62.5% kinetic resist and 0% stun resist for the two swords to be on equal ground. And if someone was using a real sword that number would probably be closer to 70-75%. Quite frankly, no creature or player armor in this game has those kind of numbers. Basically, there is no reason to ever use a stun baton.
Stun Batons need at least a 50% increase to their DPS, before I'd even bother getting another one.
Dodge: I'm a master of two fencing trees. I have Dodge +15. I dodge maybe once a week. I think there's something wrong here. This is should be our class staple. I mean, we already have the least toughness of any melee profession. A master fencer should be dodging MULTIPLE TIMES in single a fight. A master fencer should be incredibly hard to hit. As of now, I dodge once every full moon and even low level creatures hit me far more often than they miss. And on a side note,is it really necessary for Pistoleers to have a higher dodge modifier than us at aMaster level (they get +30, we get +25) I realize dodge does practically nothing for them either, but still, seeing as we're a pure melee class and they aren't and we're FENCERS for gods sake...Our Dodge should blow theirs out of the water.
Weapons: This one is major for me. Fencing weapons are a big disappointment for me. Our weapons need to be balanced and in line with other professions out there.Except for Commandos (they are already working on this one)and Pikemen (only becausePikeman's weapons havinghorrific penalty to accuracy), I think we have the worst weapons out there. I think our weapon set is supposed to be similar with pistoleers but our set is far inferior. Let's go through some weapons individually.
Rykks:Our best damaging weapon. This weapon's damage isFAR to low to make up for it's high ham cost and accuracy penalties.This weapon damage really needs to be raised to make it at all worthwhile...this shouldat least come kinda of close in terms of damage to two-handed swords. Personally, I think think they should just rid of this weapon and replace it with a sabre instead of this giant ackward looking cutlass thing.
1-H Curved Sword: Just look at the damage and speed of 2-handed curve swords and weep. But really, the damage doesn't bother me. It's the ham cost. Why is it so high? The damage is weak and it's not that fast, so why the high ham cost?Pistols do the same damage, but faster and with half the ham cost. Halve the ham cost on these.
Vibroblade: This weapon isn't that good. However, it is actually far and away THE best fencing weapon. It's our only weapon with armor piercing (light of course), it's pretty fast, and most important of all, it actually has the ham cost of a pistol! Besides the dumb looks, and unless you just stand there and use auto-attack during a fight, there is no reason not to use this weapon as your main, seeing the state of our other weapons.Even in PvP, with the new dmg reduction, I use this (no reason to hurt yourself more than your hurting your enemy). I think the damage should be raised on this slightly, seeing how low it is, to keep it in line with other AR weapons that other classes get. Also, changing the graphics, animation, and name to Foil might be a good idea.
Stun Baton: See above. This is the most inelite of the elite weapons. This weapon is just plain bad.
Speed: The more +bonuses you get to weapon speed--the more and more 1.9 swords and 2.6 start to look exactly the same speed. This probably isn't only specific to our class, but we're definately one of the ones that are greatly affected by this. The only way I can tell a difference is by using a special. Auto-attack speed is exactly the same.
Uniqueness: There is absolutely nothing unique about being a fencer, except you use a one-handed swords and no one else does.
Please feel free to add more or comment on the ones I've posted.
Calypsa
Fencer. Duelist. Ahazi.
I agree with you 100%
I would like to add the fact that KD defense has never worked to my knowledge. I am two blocks away from master Fencer and have a +40 KD defense and a Pistoleer can pistol whip me to death most of the time with no problem, which just dosn't make much sense.
Marul Lypor'y Starsider
Regarding the Stun Baton. The beginning post stated:
"Our Mediocre Sword here has a 62.5% greater DPS than our godlike stun baton. And unless I'm mistaken that directly translates to the armor protectiveness of the creature we are fighting. A creature or player would have to have 62.5% kinetic resist and 0% stun resist for the two swords to be on equal ground. And if someone was using a real sword that number would probably be closer to 70-75%. Quite frankly, no creature or player armor in this game has those kind of numbers. Basically, there is no reason to ever use a stun baton."
From all appearances here, you are absolutely correct. I mean, who has armor that shows 62.5% kinetic resists and 0% stun armor? No one.
However...
There are some missing details from this otherwise astute observation. Even the very basic player made armor has an Armor Level of 1. This means that any weapon without an Armor Piercing rating of 1 or higher suffers an immediate50% damage loss unless that weapon possesses a damage type that armor is vulnerable to, prior to the listed resists even coming into play.
The mediocre sword you spoke of in your example has an Armor Piercing rating of "0". So does the Stun Baton. However, the Stun Baton's damage is of type "Stun". Why does that matter? Because the "Stun" type damage is a vulnerability class damage to all known armors outside of Person Shield Generators. Let's see now how these two weapons compare.
You said the mediocre sword did 62.5% more damage than the Baton. First we apply these through level 1 armor, the stuff we can craft. The mediocre sword now drops from 40dps to 20dps, while the immune Stun Baton remains at 25dps. Now we apply the resists. Chitin is a verysimple armor, and a kinetic resists of 20% is easy to achieve, withhigher being commonplace. The mediocre sword now drops to 16dps, while the Stun damage the armor has no resist to remains at 25dps.We now have a very common situation where the Stun Baton does more than 56% more damage than the sword.
Let's see how they compare against some better armors. The toughest armoris Heavy Armor, with a rating of3. That's 3 consecutive 50%losses for the mediocre sword, leaving it at only 5dps. Again, the Stun baton is immune. Now apply that through the resists typical of Heavy Armor, which begin at 40% and go up form there. We'll be conservative and leave it at 40%. Our mediocre sword now has 3 dps. Once again, the Stun Baton passes right through, leaving a comparison of 25dps to 3dps. This has the Stun Baton doing over 700% more damage than the mediocre sword.
In the first, very common example, you would need a swordwith 126dps to equal the Stun Baton you listed at 25dps. In the second, higher-end example, you would need a sword with 336dps to match the Stun Baton you listed.
When all the details are included, it's a easier to see why the Stun Baton is a far superior weapon against an armored foe than it first appears.
Regarding Dodge: I completely agree.
Regarding weapons:
I agree with pretty much everything you said (with the previously noted Stun Baton info). I have a few things that may be worth throwing into the pot. Not specifically pertaining to weapons, but why our weapons appear to be so lacking.
Fencers are supposed to be all about speed, flash, and pin-point accuracy. I'll address each in turn.
We are supposed to stand apart from 2handed swordsmen in that they are slower but hit harder, and we are faster with a bit more accuracy but hit softer... with the end result being about on par with dps. However, the best 1handed swords do not come close in comparisons with the best 2handed swords. This before we even take into consideration the multiple choises in 2handed weapon for AP's over 1. 1Handed swords aren't much faster than 2handed swords when you compare the best to the best. At first, the answer might seem obvious, "Just give us faster swords." That isn't the solution. The fastest modified speed a weapon can achieve is 1.0. Once you reach Master Fencerthe fastest sword you can really see a benefit from is 2.0. Add in just a couple +10 speed Skill Enhancers and that raises to 2.2. Getting a faster weapon will not let you go below the 1.0 threshhold.
So how do we up the damage? We could go the obvious route and up the weapon damage. I don't like this as it steals the 2handed swordsman's thunder. I don't want to take that from them. What I propose is a skill, that raises as you progress through the Fencer skill tree, that gives us a chance to double strike. Whenever we hit, the code could check against our skill, and if it succeeds we get an additional hit in that same time-frame. The percentage could be adjusted so that it brings us online with the damage done by 2handers. I don't really know what that would need to be. ...5% chance? ...25% chance%? /shrug As long as by the end a Master Fencer and Master Swordsman end up with similar raw dps.
Ok, flash. I actually really like the animation we do as we fight. I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more though. But that's just eye candy. We could definitely use more variations in our weaponry, both in looks and stats.
Finally, pin-point accuracy. There are two elements of this I'd like to address. The first is the more obvious. We only have a tiny margin of accuracy over 2handed swordsman. If the above idea were to go through, and we got the innate chance to double-strike (without having to use a special move to accomplish it) then perhaps we don't need more accuracy. On the other hand, if we were considerably more accurate then we might not need more chances to hit. This could be done by upping our accuracy modifiers, or by allowing crafters to make more accurate 1handed weapons. I think it's absurd that all of our weapons have such a low degree of accuracy on them. There is certainly room for improvement here.
Alright, the second issue with pin-point accuracy has to do with the nature of the fencing sword. The developers have not given us better AP ratings because the typical fencing weapon is only a light weapon, incapable of effectively slamming through the think protection armor gives. This is true. That is also the same logic to why 2handers do have better APs. So... if this is true, why on earth did the big swords of medieval times evolve into the thin sleek fencing weapons? Well, several reason, actually. But I'm only interested in one to make my "point". The thin, sharp, flexible fencing sword could be used to find it's way through the gaps in the armor, rather than trying to hack it's way through. Unless you wore a complete and inflexible suit of metal, a fencing sword could slip through the chain-mail links, through the joints in pate mail, and through the visors of helmets. Therefore, I don't find it logical to give us more AP on fencing weapons (although I wouldn't complain if that's the only way they could accomplish this).
Instead, give our attacks a % chance to ignore armor on a successful hit. Not all the time, just a reasonable chance. Again, it could be something that increases as you progress up the fencing tree. I think this would be a reasonable balance in-line with our weapon philosophy. On normal hits, we suffer the armor penalty as normal. On "armor-bypassing" hits, we hit an armored opponent as if they had no armor at all.
Uniqueness to being a Fencer: I don't know... you may have a point. If we included some of the above ideas, or some of the other fantastic ideas others have come up with, we might carve out a place of more distinction. I'm not really sure what else we could do to set ourselves apart form the other melee's in terms of basic function. The only thing that really comes to mind is our "Blind" attacks. I don't believe any of the other melee's have that.. and it's pretty effective.
I guess that's it. You had some really good things to say, and brought up some important issues. I enjoyed reading it. Good post.
~Lyahpar~
La Femme Fencer
"Thrust if you love Fencers!"
Good posts all around. I notice no one even mentioned the godawful Gaderffi Baton...*shudder*
Dodge definitely needs to work more. it's nice to see it when it happens, but it's really too rare.
The only problem I have AP-wise with our weaopns is with the Curved Sword. Okay, I can understand it being AR0, but the 2H Curved is AR2? Ouch. A different solution would that armor penetration skill...I like that...
We now have a very common situation where the Stun Baton does more than 56% more damage than the sword."
I was always the impression that the system work like this: Say you hit someone with bodyhit for 100 points of dmg. The enemy was wearing 20% kinetic Chitin chest plate. The Stun Baton, since it has no armor piercing, automatically gets it's dmg halved to 50 because of AL 1 on armor (stun dmg vunerablilty or not). A curved sword would gets it's dmg halved and then reduced by 20% because of kinetic protection. Basically, what you are saying is that if armor has a vulnerability vs a certain type of damage it will also ignore armor level? Is that right? I didn't think it was. I thought theonly way to bypass AL is to have AP. That is why I said that a creature or player would have to have 62.5% kinetic resist and 0% stun resist for it to be effective.
I guess I was wrong. I missed it the first time I read it. But it's in the official armor guide.
Vunerability:
"Whenever the armor is hit by one of these Damage Types, all of the damage goes through. The target wearing this armor would also have an Armor Rating of None against any of these Vulnerabilities. "
I guess I'll have to go try it out another stun baton. I swore I used one once against a creature that had AL 1 and 30% kinetic with a vulnerability to stun and I was still doing much less damage. That was a long time ago, It probably got fixed.
Tantel does have stun protection...at least mine does (no layers were added).
I don't really want to see us having thehigh damage weapons either.
However, the speed cap really hurts us. With the weapons being made out there by master weaponsmiths and as more and more people reach master's of their combat professionswithplenty of +speed bonuses.A situation like this develops.Most combat professions will either have either have reached the speed cap or have come pretty darn close. Fencers will definitely have reached it, but our weapons have far less damage capability. A master 2h will have a 300+ AR2 curved sword at 3.X speed and should be pretty close to the speed cap, while we will get a far less damaging weapon and will have probably have been at the speed cap for quite sometime.
I really the doublestrike idea. It offsets this problem, it's unique, and totally fits with our class.
As for blind, I believe TKAs get it in their base unarmed brawling tree. Numerous other classes get it too, but I'm only sure of that one because I have some TKA.
Good stuff here!
Stun baton really is a fine weapon, you both put forth a very concise breakdown of the damage it does, and between the two of you, actually showed its usefullness (even though the breakdown originally attempted to show the opposite! lol).
I wholheartedly agree with the factors of dodge not seeming to manifest itself, and with some quirks with the defenses to begin with.
As for weaponry, I must admit, 100-250, 1.9 speed 2 handers do get a bit disheartening, but great ideas with the double strike. That in and of itself would easily fit the uniquness category you brought up! Maybe even define the fencer class as the melee class with the largest selection of specific damage type weapons. The Blastsaber from the Extended Universe (believe it was said to be from the X-wing series, but I cannot say from personal exp, just from what I read from others) isone great example (blast damage).
If not that, then just see about getting us some more exotic weapons...heck, even make rantoks craftable at last!
Out weapons are on the whole low AP, but perhapse there could be some alotment as previously mentioned for a brief player-based AP to take effect. Doesn't have to be like 80% of the time we add AP onto a weapon, but maybe just 20-30%, progressing through the skill tree. If the hit modifier works, your swing will be AP1 or add AP1 to your weapon, not to exeed 2 basically (again, as mentioned before, we are not hacking through the armor, just finding niches).
I think what ALL melee need, Fencers, Swordsmen and Pikemen (and perhapse just a LITTLE for TKA), are a more robust skill set. Not to say higher skills, but more skills, the majority of which you only see later on in the tree. Things to set us appart. As we get further from the brawler tree, we start looking more like our class, and less like a brawler with x or y weapon. I cannot begin to say what these skills should be, but some great ones have already been mentioned!
One final idea, inspired by some other folks and of low priority to me really, but interesting to throw out. Would be neat to have a form skill that operatied like dance or music. I am not saying it relieves battle fatigue or any other game condition. Just a non attack form or set of forms that allows the fencer or melee user to go into a perform type animation. Want to make it usefull in some way? Have it grant weapon exp in a VERY small degree the practicioner for the more who watch them 
Again, take this last one as a total whim, just me at 12 a.m. having some fun! lol
Keep up this positive vibe folks! Great stuff here!
Kudos and forever RAR!
Rooksarii, Fencer and Smuggler of the Watchkeepers, Radiant
Well written post- not just another "wah-wah-wah".
First off, dodge: it is true, we don't dodge much. For the amount of times I get swung at, I hardly ever dodge. Back in my Carbineer days, I counter-attacked twice, (once dealing 15 damage, the other time I was getting shot from range while holding a melee weapon, dealing*Target is out of range*damage). I think special abilities are "borked", and it doesn't supprise me, regarding a recent post from "Holocron", asking players if it really feels like "loot" is being dropped 15% of the time. (I don't know if they really have to go off of "feelings"; it seems to me like they should beable to actually make it so I get two units of crappy "Endorian Wild Milk" off some Pubam a little more frequently than now.) (I want to find 45 units of meat off of a Pubam Warlord again!)
Anyway, back to the issue at hand: Fencer's weapons are the colloquial "weaksauce". Sure, the "two-handed curved sword" is going to get "nerfed", but I agree with aswordsman in a recent post: "don't nerf the two-handed curved sword, just make all other melee weapons stronger!"
I doubt that I will stay with this game until fencers get "uniqueness"; there are just too many other bugs that needto be worked thru before we will see any "flair". What we will come against is everyone reaching the speed cap of one second attacks thru a combonation of skill mods and skilled weaponsmiths. When that happens, we will be worthless- what is the point of being fast and weak as a fencer, if you can be fast and strong with an armour-piercing weaponas a two-handed swordsman?
I became a fencer after seeing how many useful special moves they had in comparison to other (melee) classes.We have a weapon, the vibroblade, that allows us to chain together many moves, which is much more enjoyable than spamming one over and over again, but when the "shlt hits the fan", we're going to confront the issue of being fast and weak all over again.
Dunbar
Ahazi
P.s.: Count how many "quotation-marks" I used for a "gold star"!