Fencer Archive
Thread: Everyone with a question about Defense Stacking, Please read this.
As of Publish 5
Dodge, Counter and Block stacked.
Melee and Range Defense stacked.
Defense vs stats stacked.
As of Publish 6 (the new one)
Dodge, Counter and Block stack.
Melee and Range Defense stack.
Defense vs stats stack.
What does this mean?
There is no cap. There are no plans that have been revealed to anyone (even the correspondents) regarding the stacking.
The only thing mentioned is that the devs are "looking into it".
If this is going to get fixed, it will be Publish 7 with the rest of the combat balance since this is a rather dramatic change to the system.
Now this doesn't mean that you're uber if you do templates around this. Just because you can't be KD'd or Dizzied doesn't mean someone can't spam dizzy on you until it sticks then posture change you.
Just because you have 335 dodge with COB doesn't mean someone can't intimidate you and completely turn COB off.
Just because you have 180+/180+ Melee/Range defense doesn't mean someone can't stun or blind you and effectively make you very easy to hit.
There are ways around the defense stacking, and the good players will use them.
"If this is going to get fixed, it will be Publish 7 with the rest of the combat balance since this is a rather dramatic change to the system."
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My prediction is that many of the same stupid people will assume this statement as 100% accurate and soon everyone will claim that it won't stack after publish 7 when there is no guarantee that the devs will ever unstack the defenses. Let the rumors begin.
MutantSquirrel wrote:"If this is going to get fixed, it will be Publish 7 with the rest of the combat balance since this is a rather dramatic change to the system."
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My prediction is that many of the same stupid people will assume this statement as 100% accurate and soon everyone will claim that it won't stack after publish 7 when there is no guarantee that the devs will ever unstack the defenses. Let the rumors begin.
Thats why I use the keyword "If". Everytime a patch happens people assume its fixed anyway /shrug. At least we have a month of peace and quiet if thats true
.Hell, I've seen people claim it magically happened in the middle of the day with no updates or server reset. People really need to calm down and think this through rationally.
Kaynab wrote:
Apparently Raph's post didn't clear things up and misinformation is still out there.
As of Publish 5
Dodge, Counter and Block stacked.
Melee and Range Defense stacked.
Defense vs stats stacked.
As of Publish 6 (the new one)
Dodge, Counter and Block stack.
Melee and Range Defense stack.
Defense vs stats stack.
What does this mean?
There is no cap. There are no plans that have been revealed to anyone (even the correspondents) regarding the stacking.
The only thing mentioned is that the devs are "looking into it".
If this is going to get fixed, it will be Publish 7 with the rest of the combat balance since this is a rather dramatic change to the system.
Now this doesn't mean that you're uber if you do templates around this. Just because you can't be KD'd or Dizzied doesn't mean someone can't spam dizzy on you until it sticks then posture change you.
Just because you have 335 dodge with COB doesn't mean someone can't intimidate you and completely turn COB off.
Just because you have 180+/180+ Melee/Range defense doesn't mean someone can't stun or blind you and effectively make you very easy to hit.
There are ways around the defense stacking, and the good players will use them.
Thanks for the post, Kaynab. It's good to see that you and a few others are trying to keep things postive around here with posts like yours and not being negative in the post-Raph era here.
eveready9999 wrote:Clear this up for me(sorry if this is redundent). Counterattack and dodge will stack, even if i'm holding a gaffi?
Eveready Zues
Dodge
Dodge is given to Fencer and Pistoleer.
Dodge from Fencer and Pistoleer stack.
You must be holding a one-hand weapon or pistol.
Counter
Counter is given to Two-hand and Carbineer.
Counter from Two-hand and Carbineer stack.
You must be holding a two-hand weapon or carbine.
Block
Block is given to Pikeman and Rifleman.
Block from Pikeman and Rifleman stack.
You must be holding a pike or rifle.
Dodge, Counter, Block and Defense Acuity do not stack with each other. If you have 60 dodge and 60 block, you do not now have 120 secondary defense. Depending on what weapon you are holding, you have 60 of that weapons defense.
Defense Acuity does not stack, enhance or have anything to do with Block, Counter and Dodge. It is just a 4th type of secondary defense. I see people making this mistake all the time.
"Yeah TKM/Blademaster rocks because I get 96 defense acuity with 105 dodge so thats 204 defense".
It doesn't work like that, regardless of what the description says.
Other stuff
Theoretically a Fencer can counter or block. Everyone has a very very tiny chance of doing any of the secondary defenses. For the most part you will never see it happen.
There are skill tapes and attachments that do grant special mods such as "One-hand weapon counterattack" or "Carbine evasion", etc. Unless they have values in the 20s, they are fairly useless since no one is given natural defenses similiar to these.
In the combat log dodge appears as "so and so does something to you but you evade". I believe counter appears as 'you counterattack' and block is broken (at least for Pikeman) and appears the same as counter.
Message Edited by Kaynab on 02-14-2004 03:01 PM
Actually, I distinctly remember reading that the other two special defenses are completely disabled while one uses a weapon that can do any of the three.
Ex: A Fencer with his primary weapon cannot block or counterattack, a Swordsman carrying a Cleaver can't Dodge or Block..
Dalantia wrote:Actually, I distinctly remember reading that the other two special defenses are completely disabled while one uses a weapon that can do any of the three.
Ex: A Fencer with his primary weapon cannot block or counterattack, a Swordsman carrying a Cleaver can't Dodge or Block..
You are correct.
Only one can be enabled at a time. I was mistaken, what I should of said is that if a Master Fencer equips a carbine and has no carbine skill they do have the possibility of doing a counter.
So in order to do any of these abilities:
Dodge: One-hand weapon (Gaffi, Stun baton, etc) or Pistol (FWG5, Launcher Pistol, Scatter, DX2, etc)
Counter: Two-hand weapon (Hammer, Axe, Cleaver, etc) or Carbine (E11, Nym Slugthrower, etc)
Block: Pikeman weapon (VibroLance, Staff, Long Vibro Axe, etc) or Rifle (T21, Laser Rifle, SG82)
Defense Acuity: Vks or Unarmed
Note that Defensive Acuity is the TKA secondary defense. It gives you the ability to dodge, counter or block but they are all linked only to the defense acuity mod. There is no way to stack or enhance this.
The message in the combat log saying a TKA evaded or counter-attacked is probably the source of the misinformation.
When a TKA sees the message they should really think of it as "So and so does something to you but you use your defensive acuity mod to not take damage".
On the original news all i can say is hoo har, good news all round.
Higginsis wrote:
I'm sure evade is down to the melee/ranged def, not the other 3 stats.
On the original news all i can say is hoo har, good news all round.
No.
Range/Melee defense dictate if something misses you all together. This is considered your first line of defense. A check is done between your defense mod, the attacker's accuracy and a few other variables. If the attack misses it says "So and so shoots or swings at you but misses".
If the shot hits then...
Dodge, Counter, Block and Defensive acuity come into play. That is why they are considered secondary defenses. They only apply if something hits you. This partially explains the bug that allows a DOT and the occasional damage to go through even though it says you evaded. The check is run again, this time verse your dodge/block/counter/defense acuity mod. If it comes in the defenses favor you evade, counter or block. If it comes in the offenses favor, the attack is registered as a hit.
Dodge always comes out as "but you evade". This is known.
Block shows up in your log as "but you counterattack" however in the attacking person's log it shows as "but so and so blocks".
Counter shows up as "but you counterattack".
A typical message for range defense will read:
"Attacker shoots at you but misses".
A typical message for dodge will read:
"Attacker uses a flamethrower to spray concentrated fire on you for 2375 damage, but you evade".
In the last situation you will not take any of the damage, but the DOT will stick. One thing I would like our new correspondent to find out is if this is intended or a bug. I've heard reasons arguing both sides although I tend to believe that if you dodge the attack then there should be no dot.
The Real Scoop on Dodge...
Its written by someone much smarter than me and sums everything up.
Actually, I distinctly remember reading that the other two special defenses are completely disabled while one uses a weapon that can do any of the three.
Ex: A Fencer with his primary weapon cannot block or counterattack, a Swordsman carrying a Cleaver can't Dodge or Block..