Fencer Archive

"* Fencers receive more defensive bonus than swordsman or pikemen."

I keep seeing this thrown up at Fencers that I wonder how many people know just how dramatically and insanely high our defenses are compared to other melee. Why don't we take a look at our uber denfeses that compensate us for our damage being less than half of that of our counterparts:

Toughness (A percentage reduction of damage taken, aka "mitigation"):

1. TKA = 57


2. Swordsman = 38


3. Fencer = 32


4. Pikeman = 26

Whoops, there must be a mistake there. Has to be since we didn't come out on top. This shows Swordsman with +6 more toughness than Fencers. Pikeman are a 6 less than Fencers. How do we look at this? Do we look at the fact that this means Swordsman get to ignore almost 19% more incoming melee damage than Fencers? Hmm... but that doesn't prove the ongoing theme that Fencers have these uber defenses. Perhaps we just say that a meager 6 points don't amount to anything significant. Ok, if this were the case then the 6 points Fencers have over pikeman doesn't mean anything either. Therefore Fencers are not the kings of Toughness.

Melee Defenses (A negative melee accuracy modifier applied to our attacker.)

1. TKA = 32


2. Fencer = 24


3. Swordsman = 20


4. Pikeman = 20

Ah-ha! Here is the uberness we were seeking. Fencers has a huge 4 more points in melee defense! I want to review something before I go on:

"* An accuracy difference of 40 means that you WILL do 40% more damage..."

Although I disagree with the calculations here, I'll play along. Using this logic, if 40 points in accuracy modifier effect damage by 40%, then (going by the same principle) 4 points of accuracy modifier effect damage by 4%. Fencers have this huge 4% reduction in incoming damage due to melee defense. Adding this to the previous damage reduction percentages:

1. TKA = 89% damage reduction


2. Swordsman = 58% damage reduction


3. Fencer = 56% damage reduction


4. Pikeman = 46% damage reduction

Hmm... somehow I'm not very impressed so far about this theoritical defensive uberness Fencers have over Swordsmen. We do have an advantage over Pikemen though.

Status Defenses you say? Ok, we can pretend for a minute that they really make a huge difference, esp now considering the recent nerfs to status changes. Let's take a look:

TKA

1. vs Blind = 10


2. vs Dizzy = 5


3. vs Intimidate = 0


4. vs Knockdown = 20


5. vs Posture = 30


6. vs Stun = 15


7. Total = 80

Fencer

1. vs Blind = 20


2. vs Dizzy = 20


3. vs Intimidate = 20


4. vs Knockdown = 40


5. vs Posture = 40


6. vs Stun = 0


7. Total = 140

Pikeman

1. vs Blind = 20


2. vs Dizzy = 40


3. vs Intimidate = 0


4. vs Knockdown = 20


5. vs Posture = 30


6. vs Stun = 30


7. Total = 140

Swordsman

1. vs Blind = 10


2. vs Dizzy = 20


3. vs Intimidate =20


4. vs Knockdown = 25


5. vs Posture = 10


6. vs Stun = 30


7. Total = 115

TKA

1. vs Blind = 10


2. vs Dizzy = 5


3. vs Intimidate = 0


4. vs Knockdown = 20


5. vs Posture = 30


6. vs Stun = 15


7. Total = 80

In summary:

1. Fencers = 140


2. Pikeman = 140


3. Swordsman = 115


4. TKA = 80

Yes! There it is, we come out on top. We R uber! Um, of course, Pikeman are right up there with us. If status defenses ever get fixed this could really mean something.

Now that we can all see the reality behind all the hype of uber Fencer defense being so far above and beyond that of all other melee professions. Does what you see above really compensate for dealing out less than half their damage? Don't get me wrong... I don't want to see any of the other classes get nerfed. I only want to see Fencers get fixed withoutmembers those other melee classes (who we try and be supportive of) trying to jump down our throat for wanting to do so.

You cannot add toughness and defense together to figure out how much damage you will mitigate. They act as factors. +50 toughness and +50 ranged defense isn't going to let you ignore all damage.

I did not say +40 accuracy would result in 40% more damage. I said +40 accuracy would result in 40% more damage -if the base to-hit chance is 50%-. The caveat is pretty important. Accuracy plays a bigger role at the lower end and less at the higher end. You also stated that you didn't agree with this calculation. Please explain why you don't agree with it.

You also ignored ranged defense, and (less useful currently) combat equilibrium and dodge/counter/block. Fencers recieve +24 ranged defense, while swordsmen and pikemen receive +15. While dodge/counter/block doesn't seem to have a significant effect (although the effects are not well understand, to my knoclwedge), it's been acknowledged as something which will be improved.

Also, many defense mods stack. They work regardless of what weapon you're using, or not using, as the case may be. This seems to be the biggest reason that defense mods are relatively speaking smaller than accuracy mods. Someone who wants to increase their defensive capabilties is going to want to take TKA precision, then fencer S&G - those lines provide the best defense modifiers in the entire game. Given those choices, it makes taking fencer (or TKA) a 'cheaper' choice (if they're interested in melee), relatively speaking, than swordsman or pikeman. Most elite combat professions are limited in what they can do to improve their capability - for instance, you cannot become a better rifleman than master rifleman/master marksman. Defense is the only way to improve themselves (this is also true for commandos - pistoleers and carbineers always have the BH option, although the benefits are somewhat debatable for carbineers, and the loss of defense is not insignificant).

Personally, I feel that fencer is outdone by TKA (my impression is thatTKA has better defense overall, better damage,better specials, and more utility) because they both fill more or less the same niche, except TKA seems to do it better. Anyone serious about defense is going to take some fencer after TKA, however. Ranged defense (and to a lesser extent melee defense) is extremely difficult to get otherwise. I think pikemen and swordsmen are in worse position than fencers, as they don't really fill a niche. If there were more skill points, they might be acceptible 3rd&4th tier defense classes, but as things are now, it's pretty much stretching to go past fencer for defense. In any case, riflemen and marksman both provide more total ranged defense than swordsman and pikeman (less than tka/fencer, however) making them even worse choices in terms of defense.

I'll concede my perspective is mostly from a pvp standpoint, and mainly regarding stackable defense mods. It would have been more accurate for me to say 'fencers receive more stackable defensive bonus than swordsman or pikeman', although really only toughness doesn't fall in this category, and fencer toughness is still actually higher than pikeman.

Finally, I did not say the defense mods were the only things that would balance the damage discrepancy. Nor did I state that fencers were, definitively, balanced.My objection was with your methodology and reasoning, There are still special moves and accuracy, among other things, which needs to be considered.

Raphayl,please read my post above regarding speed caps.

The 1.0 second speed cap is applied after the delay modifier of specials. Using a x2 delay x2 damage special will double DPS for fencing and VK weapons, which for all practical purposes is the real power in game.

Fencers do not have less than half of the damage of other professions at master. They have more damage. And they have insane damage reductions. Same with TKA. You give the erroneous conclusion that Heavy Swordsman and Pikemen do the most damage of any melee class, while it's the opposite. Please address this issue.

So Noules, tell me, are you actually a *Fencer*? - cuz all I see you do is creating strife here, while posting a lot on ranged forums.

Seena

Hey we looted a Nightsister Lance that has high damage high potency fast mind poison DoT =) Ok I wont bother asking you to figure that into the equations or even consider the nightsister Lance which isnt in your weapon list . An interesting read that whereas I appreciate some peoples points on here about not taking it too literally due to limitations it was a good base to understanding weapon choice with Melee.

You're correct about fencers receiving only +19 ranged defense, and not +24; I thought master fencers received +5 ranged defense. This still gives fencers more defense than swordsmen or pikemen, just to a somewhat less degree (and for non-masters, potentially significantly more).

And no, I'm not a fencer. My primary interest in the class is for reasons I stated above, for its defensive aspects. I would have fencer S&G 4 if my points weren't tied up in SL, and I recommend everyone in my regular group to pick up fencer S&G if they have the points to spare (after TKA precision).

EXCELLENT Post Raphayl! I just hope the folks at Sony will give our class a boost. I knew we were at the bottom of the totem pole, but I had no idea just how low.

Trapapir

Wookiee Blademaster

Bloodfin

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Noules000 wrote:

And no, I'm not a fencer. My primary interest in the class is for reasons I stated above, for its defensive aspects.

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Now why is this not a surprise?

Let Raph do what she does best- promoting Fencers FOR Fencers.

Seena

Great post Raph. Lotsa time and effort (and math!) I'm a diehard TKA and am almost jealous of fencers for having you =P Could you maybe make a ham cost (with weapon)/ special move average cost / DPS comparison for melee classes? I'm not as good at math as you are but I'd like to see a table where you take the highest damaging special moves for all melee classes (most likely their master hits), and calculate the approx DPS/ Ham ratio for those moves with different weapons to determine whichmaster moveis most efficient. Also, the damage for master TKA is around +200% (exactly +200% for me but I'm a trandoshan), not 100 as you posted. You may have forgotten the points gained from brawler Unarmed 1 - 4.

Thanks,

~Sadrak Gorechild

Flurry

I'm not a elaborate writer, but I most sensirly mean that you a he greatest addition to our class, and that I have with great enthusiasm follow all thread you have either made or answered, and you keep amazing me with your empeciable logic and common sense.

Raph, we're lucky to have you on our team.

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KaliMirchi wrote:

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Noules000 wrote:

And no, I'm not a fencer. My primary interest in the class is for reasons I stated above, for its defensive aspects.

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Now why is this not a surprise?

Let Raph do what she does best- promoting Fencers FOR Fencers.

Seena

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Whether or not I am a fencer has no bearing on my arguments. I could be a cadre of monkeys randomly typing on the keyboard; that does not change the validity (or lack thereof) of the points raised in my post.

boy, you really opened yourself open wide with that statement... but i won't make one of the many obvious jokes.

by the way, you're absolutely right. numbers are numbers. your class doesn't matter. although i think you are expecting too much from the post. Raphayl/Lyahpar wasn't trying to make and end-all/be-all to the melee weapons. it seemed to kinda show a trend with some omissions. what i learned from it is how to better judge one weapon against the other. not whether to be TKA instead of fencer, or how to balance classes, or find a deginitive "best" weapon. what she did was akin to giving an example of how to build a car by showing us a go-cart. we know the numbers aren't highway ready, but she put more work than anyone else i've seen and showed the underlying theories very well.

yeah, people omit things, and miss numbers and situations.

on your side, you were just pointing out flaws, which is completely warranted. there were just times when you overstated her intent and direction.

p.s. no hostility here, just bemused wonderment.