Fencer Archive

Raph kindlyasked that her post on The Future of Fencing not be sidetracked, so I will start another.

Rosar wrote:

.Actually, it wasn't me who first mentioned longswords, it was someone else, near the top of the page, who also described someone who lacks the basic sense to use a rapier as it is intended. Sure, fighting with a longsword and fighting with a rapier are two very different styles, but it's hard to imagine someone confusing the two weapons.

I must be missing this commentary that you are referring to. I see no mention of longsword at all- save your reference. A reference that is totally meaningless (comparing a rapier to a longsword) in that rapier is a one handed weapon, and longsword is (primarily)two - but also can be wieled at times with one - (as in the **edit** sword - which earns it the nickname of one and a halfhanded sword). No one mentioned using a rapier as a longsword - they are two different animals.

Rapiers, like most every sword in existence, *can* be used as both a cutting and thursting weapon, but almost everyone associates them with thrusting

Not only *can* they be used as a cutting weapon, they are. People associate them (wrongly) with primarily 'thrusting' weapons because that is what they see on TV and film. And the Fencers who choreograph fight scenes are not generally trained in periodRapier fighting - they are fencers. The fight secenes reflect this.

The term 'rapier' is actually quite general, covering everything from the 'real' rapier, 16th and 17th century 'cut-and-thrust' blades, the the flimsy, whip-like foils of modern sport fencing, but in all cases the rapier's primary function *is* as a thrusting weapon.

If the source you are obtaining your information from is calling a foil a rapier, I suggest you find another source.

Anyone who bothers to look up even the basic, dictionary definition of a rapier, or has actually seen one, would immediately associate the weapon with thrusting.

I would suggest to you that a dictionary is a poor reference when it comes to obtaining definitions of weaponry. The rapiers you are referring to (one that you would immediately associate with thrusting) are likely replications with epee blades. If you truly want to sound intelligent, I suggest that you visit a museum with period rapiers. These are formidable weapons, equally at home with leaving a disabling gash in someone's arm, or finding their way through potential entry points in plate mail armor.

It's very easy to contrast a so-called "broadsword" (a term invented to describe nearly every sword intended primarily for cutting) with a rapier.

Again, your knowledge gap is impressive for someone who is attempting to define what a rapier is, and isn't. There are any number of primarily cutting weapons (katana, scimitar, kaskarars, kampilan - I could name dozens of others) which are in no way related to broadswords. Broadsword is a catch all term tolong, heavy,2 handed(That being the key definer - not that it was a 'cutting' weapon)Medieval Western European weapons (that were, actually CRUSHING and CLOBBERINGweapons more than they were cutting).

A typical rapier's blade doesn't begin very wide at the hilt, and tapers to a very sharp point at the end. It can be used for cutting, sure, but it wouldn't be nearly as effective as a thrust.

I will give you an assignment. Visit a museum with period 16th- 18th century rapiers. Then come back and describe their blades to me. What you are describing is a reproduction with an epee blade. This isn't to say that there weren't thin rapier blades, especially in the later period of the weapon, but, for the most part, they weren't what you seem to think they were.

Thrusts are innately far more lethal than cuts, anyway, which makes rapiers quite lethal.

Again you are WAY off the mark. Especially with the blade you are describing. A thin, very sharp point leaves a puncture wound which, unless you are VERY lucky, is not lethal at all. The most vital of organs- the heart, is extremely difficult to reach, nestled safely behind the sternum and ribcage. Even a puncture in a lung lobe is not particularly disabling.Nor is it particularly disabling if it enters as large muscle mass - cut ACROSS that same muscle mass, and the person is disabled. And this is the objective in the fight- disable your foe (slashing at the easily accessed arms and legs), then deliver the coup de grace when he's lying vulnerable, on the ground.

That will definitely help me a lot more than calling me an idiot.

Actually, it was you who initiated calling people idiots in this forum.

Seena

Excellent Kali, once again you earn my respect in decompiling and analyzing apostin orderto completely flame it away. I loved every word of it, and Rosar; put that in ya pipe and smoke it

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FURY_Chaser wrote:
While a long slash can compleatly cripple a person, a stab under the arm to the lung will kill.

Stabs/slash's both have thier effectiveness

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Ya have two lungs. People function fine with one lung. Drop a lung and it will slow you down a lot -- but it won't kill you.

Seema

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Irtimed wrote:
a woman thats knows as much about swords (if not more) as i do... i think im in love....

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OMG I've forgotten most of what I know... I was a weapon fiend for years - studied rapier in high school and college.

Worked at several Rennaissance Faires - they paid me to get drunk, and beat up people. It was my dream job.

Seena

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Rosar wrote:
sure. But that was never my intention.

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Rosar wrote:

And if you're looking for the longsword reference, it's from Yetimann, on page 2 of the "Your thoughts..." post:

"On that, more complex weapons means better fencer. For example a longsword is fairly basic as is a shortsword, but a rapier and a main gauche are mush harder to be effective with, if you were to use a rapier like a longsword you would soon find yourself weaponless as it would bend or break unter the slashing impacts."

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Thanks for pointing that out.

I missed it.

Hopefully he learned a little about rapiers as well

Seena

I'm not here to make enemies. Could we let this die here and now? I won't pretend to know anything about anything and you can correct me if I'm wrong about something I *do* post.