Entertainer Archive
Thread: Lockdown on original Inspiration thread
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TCWolffe
Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:48 am
#1
Having re-read through the thread that was locked down, I can find only two or three posts that were MILDLY negative (by comparison to say the BH, Jedi, or galaxy forums where flame wars happen every 5 minutes). I can't entirely blame someone for adding there thoughts on a system that while encouraging in its intentions, leaves something to be desired in implementation. 90% of that thread was full of thoughful ideas on how to improve or add upon the system being proposed. No, there will not be 100% unanimous support for any idea presented, whether from the devs as a concept, or from fellow community members on how such a concept might be modified. So we get slapped down and told we can't talk about it anymore because a few people feel this isn't going in a direction that helps our profession? What does SOE expect us to do, take what we're given and like it, 'or else'? If there are responses that are negative to the point of violating the terms of use for the forums, remove those posts, don't lock down a thread where we are supposed to be discussing future changes to our profession. How is any feedback going to be obtained, then?
I pay less money for the right to use my credit card every month. When I call my credit company's customer relations and tell them I'm not satisfied with something, do you know what they do? They start falling all over themselves kissing my butt trying to make whatever the problem is right. A week later someone calls to make sure everything is still right. They do not tell me if I don't like it that I should just keep it to myself before rudely hanging up on me.
Meanwhile, in the time I've taken to write this post, 5 or 6 entirely negative flame-wars have probably broken out over a bug being exploited or some questionable tactic or who knows what else in any number of Galaxy/BH/Jedi forums.
I pay less money for the right to use my credit card every month. When I call my credit company's customer relations and tell them I'm not satisfied with something, do you know what they do? They start falling all over themselves kissing my butt trying to make whatever the problem is right. A week later someone calls to make sure everything is still right. They do not tell me if I don't like it that I should just keep it to myself before rudely hanging up on me.
Meanwhile, in the time I've taken to write this post, 5 or 6 entirely negative flame-wars have probably broken out over a bug being exploited or some questionable tactic or who knows what else in any number of Galaxy/BH/Jedi forums.
Tralmek
Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:23 am
#2
Actually, the last 1/3 of that thread seems to have disappeared. It had some flames and personal attacks that were uncalled for....
AnakinSWG
Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:59 am
#3
Tralmek wrote:
some flames and personal attacks that were uncalled for....
I would assume you're speaking of my confrontation with Ravanne. The comments weren't uncalled for at all. Blindly screaming at the developers about everything they do "wrong" in every thread posted about the CU is certainly not constructive. In fact, I would argue that it's extremely counterproductive. The profession is incomplete, and has been acknowledged as such. We currently have the attention of developers. (Or we did, for a while. Who knows how they've reacted to the constant negativity now?) Do we really want to bite the hand that's feeding us?
It wasn't screaming and crying that recently convinced the devs to rethink their stance on the Nightsister Bicep. Esharra has been addressing the subject in a calm and collected manner in the corre forums since worries about the conversion started popping up. You'll note that the majority of the comments on the particular subject made in dev-monitored threads were more of concern / disappointmentthan of outrage and anger.
Perhaps we should rethink the necessity of screaming right now. There was a time when we needed dev attention. We obviously had to push for a revamp and many, many bug fixes. Being the "squeaky wheel" helped at that point. In the recent months, we've seen alot of change to our profession, much of it positive. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt and recognize the fact that these are rudimentary skills being provided to us at this time, and not our endgame. (As has been stated by our developer.) Sure, we're currently without a real form of income, as some have pointed out in their concerns of passivity. However, more content is supposed to be on the way.
I'm serious. We don't really have to whiz on everything the devs give us right now. They can always return our Christmas presents before we open them. If you don't like being in a state of flux, follow my example and stop paying for the game until that content is available, or switch professions for a while. Just don't ruin it for everybody else.
Edit: Spelling
Message Edited by AnakinSWG on 04-20-2005 01:13 PM
NJ62
Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:01 pm
#4
When someone acts inappropriately on the boards, it's not then okay to launch an attack. Politely disagree or, if the post is extremely offensive, notify a moderator. Only YOU can prevent forum fires.
TCWolffe
Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:07 pm
#7
I wasn't aware material had been removed from the discussion thread as well as it being locked down. As I said, I don't have a problem with removing something offensive or that offers nothing to further the discussion. But on the extreme of locking down a FOCUS THREAD because of some disagreements, it sends the message that could be interepreted as 'either tell us you like it or don't tell us anything' almost like dissenting opinions are not allowed. You will never find unanimous consent on any issue, remove innapropriate posts all you want, but please don't lock down threads discussing a major change in the mechanics of our profession and on top of that, cap it off with some remark that reminds me of being punished by my dad when I was 5 years old. It would have been far more 'customer service' like to remove the material objected to and post a message saying 'I would remind everyone to observe the forum usage guidelines when posting' and include a link to said guidelines. Simply saying 'If you can't discuss the issue civily, don't discuss it at all' comes off as cold, condescending, and further drives a wedge between SOE and its customers.
Ravanne_Esi
Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:10 pm
#9
The only thing offensive in the original thread was the way someone, who disageed with what I had to say and how I said it, addressed me by name. I responded in an appropriate manner to the way I was addressed. I would not tolerate being spoken to in that manner RL and will not tolerate it here. If you disagree with what I have to say then debate me on my ideas, do not resort to personal attacks. If a personal attack its the only way you have to respond to me than perhaps it's your ideas that lack merit.
AnakinSWG
Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:49 am
#10
Ravanne_Esi wrote:
If you disagree with what I have to say then debate me on my ideas, do not resort to personal attacks.
Your ideas were not what I disagreed with at that point. Yes, I disagreed with your ideas, but I also disagreed with your approach, as well as your attitude. The spreading of negativity and hatred for the developers in every thread you enter is not something I (or many others) have enjoyed over the past weeks. I know several members of our community that have been biting their tongues for quite some time, while hints were dropped thatsome peoplewere going 'overboard,' and that the entertainer profession was not about to be destroyed by the devs.
Listen guys (and I've beenaddressing everybody here, not just Rav), we have the attention of the devs right now. Look at the changes and additions over the past months, and tell me otherwise. You can't do it.
Since we have their attention, I would suggest that we not be counterproductive and lose their respect for us. Ravanne, you can attest to the fact that it hurts to be personally targetted, can't you? Recall how you reacted. Anger, denial, absolute hatred for the one that attacked your method of approaching the situation in such a blunt manner.
Now imagine how the devs feel when they read a post like yours in their threads. They're working on a profession, putting time and resources into our playstyle, and getting nothing but grief in return. It's a work-in-progress. Would we rather wait for them to present us with a finished product before given the chance to evaluate and provide constructive criticism? MMO's are ever-evolving. That could take ages...
I said this in the reply that I edited out before Ravanne posted... The NS Bicep was not converted because a few players sat in dev-monitored threads, screaming at them about how they screwed up. Esharra (and others) worked in a calm and collected manner in the correspondent forums to have the change made, presenting the feelings of the community in clear arguments. If you look at the dev-created focus threads, there was no huge outcry against that change. Yes, concern was shown, but not hatred and disgust. Nobody demanded that the INCOMPETENT DEVS NEED TO GIVE US OUR NS BICEPS BACK!!!1!1!1! But what happened? After constructive interaction with developers that now have our attention and are willing to work on our profession, the positive change was made.
They're giving us content now. Let's lead that content in an acceptable direction, and not tear it up before they give it to us, only to have it taken away because we think we won't like it.
Message Edited by AnakinSWG on 04-21-2005 09:49 AM
Message Edited by Nadias on 04-23-2005 10:30 AM
Ravanne_Esi
Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:56 am
#11
AnakinSWG wrote:
Ravanne_Esi wrote:
If you disagree with what I have to say then debate me on my ideas, do not resort to personal attacks.
Your ideas were not what I disagreed with at that point. Yes, I disagreed with your ideas, but I also disagreed with your approach, as well as your attitude. The spreading of negativity and hatred for the developers in every thread you enter is not something I (or many others) have enjoyed over the past weeks. I know several members of our community that have been biting their tongues for quite some time, while hints were dropped thatsome peoplewere going 'overboard,' and that the entertainer profession was not about to be destroyed by the devs.
Perhaps you might want to reread my post. I expressed an opinion, granted with a certain amount of accumulated frustration, about what they had done. I did not attack any person, I attacked what an organization had done, and I then explained why I felt that way. If people had not gotten angry over what went on with the NS Bicep, would anyone have done anything about it? When people began to express anger and upset over what was being done with the NS Bicep, that anger and upset was brought to the attention of the DEVs and then, and only then did something get done.
Which will get faster action?
"Pardon me, I believe you may be standing on my toe."
or
"Get the hell off my foot!"
AnakinSWG
Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:19 am
#12
I don't know about everybody else, but....Frankly, I'd be tempted to slap the sh!t out of somebody that endlessly cursed me for something I didn't intend to do.
Ravanne_Esi
Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:20 am
#13
AnakinSWG wrote:
I don't know about everybody else, but....Frankly, I'd be tempted to slap the sh!t out of somebody that endlessly cursed me for something I didn't intend to do.
The only person I cursed in any of my posts was you and it was pretty mild as far as curses go.
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