Entertainer Archive
Thread: For discussion: What should being an entertainer be?
As I said I'm going to be doing things a little different. First, let me explain the angle I'm coming from here.
With nearly every profession in the game, people have a general idea what to expect of them. Brawlers aren't too different from melee classes of other games. Marksmen are in some ways similar to casters. Medics are clerics. Artisans are crafters. Nearly every one of the original professions can be related to something people know, and know what to expect.
The exception is entertainers. It was a bold move to put such an unconventional class into the game, which has been met with mixed review. The closest there is in other games is a bard, but bards can do things with their abilities, so the bards of this game are the squad leaders. As a result nobody really knows what they should expect. There is confusion, disagreement, and in general people are not having the fun with the class they should be. This has been made worse by the fact that people feel they are being forced through the class to become a jedi. Most of them aren't having fun because they don't want to be here. As a result, some of the people that do find fun in the class aren't having as much fun with it.
So for a bold new class, I ask a bold question to everyone. What do you think an entertainer should be? Until we can answer that question, any ideas we have for what can make the class more interesting are just making blind stabs.
Any ideas here will be long term projects. Don't expect any sweeping changes to happen in the short term. Don't even expect the class will be changed so drastically. I hardly expect the developers will be smacking themselves on the forehead and saying "Duh! That's what entertainers should be. What were we thinking?" What I do expect is a direction for us, the community, to focus on. Even the grandest houses are built one brick at a time.
Please try to keep the discussion constructive. And remember, big picture here. I don't want to see people drilling down into the details. I want to see broad ideas of what the class could be.
Entertainers should be ENTERTAINERS.
What do I mean by this?
I mean that they should strive to be entertaining to those watching the show. They should not merely be "mind healers" or "BF healers." They should be entertianers.
Think about what the class is about, thematically. The idea is that they are kind of like an old WWII "USO" show, in their function. Bob "ho-ho" Hope would drag some performers around Western Europe or Asia, appearing before the troops. The troops, battle-weary and at the edge of their rope, perhaps beginning to be mentally unglued in some ways, would be able, for a few hours, to sit back, relax, and forget their troubles. They would laugh at Hope's jokes, hoot and holler at the dancing babes on stage, sing along with Bing Crosby, etc, etc. For a few hours, the war would be replaced by fun and entertainment. As a result of that entertainment, the troops would forget their troubles, and be renewed, re-invigorated, re-energized.
This is what battle fatigue healing, and to an extent mind wound healing, is all about. Someone is weary of war and violence. He comes into the cantina, sees my slinky, sexy blue twi'lek dancer, and she makes him forget all about his tiredness and his troubles. He watches her for a while, and when he leaves the cantina he is a new man, re-energized and ready for more conflict.
The only real way for my dancer to make him forget his troubles is for her to entertain him. If she is boring or unattractive or un-personable, he will not be swept away. If she is pleasant and fun and enjoyable, he will be.
Now here comes the problem: how do you measure how entertaining someone is? There is no way to put a number on it. The solution that was originally arrived at (currently in the game as of now, also) was time. I can see why it was arrived at -- it's easy. But the fact that you put a lot of time into entertaining does not mean, necessarily, that you are entertaining.
Now we must remember that being entertaining is in terms of the character. So it's not true that just because a player finds you boring, that your character is boring. In a roleplaying game, it is the character, not the player, who has the skills. Just like my character's carbine aiming ability do not depend on my physical twitch skills, I shouldn't have to "twitch" perform in order to be entertaining. Yet there is a social aspect to entertaining that cannot be quantified. And this is why to date it is just about the time you put into it.
The way things stand now, flourishing is needed but how you flourish is irrelvent. I would like to see this change. Other classes have specials and the sequence of using the specials is important. For instance, as a carbineer, when I fight something big I use actionshot, which causes bleeding, and then usually legshot or something like that. But there is a proper order. You do actionshot first, not last. Start the bleeding at the beginning of the battle (possibly combined with a posture change though that rarely works for me). If you use actionshot at the end it is a waste. So the sequence of events matters -- this is the tactical side of combat.
However there is no "tactical" side to dancing or music right now. You get the same experience no matter what the order of flourishes is. I think this is something that could be changed. Let me explain how.
It is unquestionable that certain sequences of musical or dance flourishes look or sound good together. It is also true that certain dance moves go very well with certain musical flourishes. In theory, at least, your character is more entertaining when doing these combinations, because they are more pleasing to the eye and ear, than just random flourishing. Similarly, bandflourishes look and sound better than random flourishing by everyone at different times on different flourishes.
It seems to me that just like the need for a carbineer or a TKA artist to put their combat moves in the right order for maximum combat effect, we should have to put our moves in an "entertaining" and pleasing order to have the maximum entertainment effect. Now, we can do that right now and please the other players watching on the other end of the internet, but this does nothing for our experience. Yet it should also be true that doing these "more entertaining" combinations should get more experience for our characters because the are, well, more entertaining. And by being more entertaining, they should heal faster and better. This is very similar to how putting combat moves in the right order kills things faster and better.
So what am I suggesting? Mechanically I am not sure yet... I am just brainstorming. But theoretically, at least, I would like to see a stab made at finding a way to quantify which things are, "in character" more entertaining things for your PC to do, and rewarding characters for doing them. For example, let's say popular flourish 2 goes really well with StarWars2 flourish 7 (just making this up at random since I am at work... ssh don't tell anyone). Maybe the characters -- both musician and dancer -- could get "extra credit" for combining those things and timing them to go off together. The extra credit could come in the form of (a) an experience increase for both, and (b) a healing speed boost.
Now there are two issues with this.
The first issue is that this could be exploitable. But we'd have to see a skeleton of a system before we could know in what way it could be exploited, so I won't address that further. I'd rather just advance the theory for now.
The second issue is that dancing and music (unlike the other profs in the game besides maybe ID) are arts, not sciences, and thus defy quantification. Just because I think dance F2 works well with sw2 F7 does not mean Tiaga will, or PoetDancer will. So there is a real question of HOW do you figure out what the most "pleasing" combinations are. There are two ways to solve this:
1. The devs could just decide, perhaps in concert with Tiaga, NewJedi, and Ravenmist. "Key combinations" are coded into the game, and it is up to us to discover what they are.
2. The group of players could decide. There could be a way to tell the game, "This is the combination we want." It would be different for each group. When they "hit it" (by properly coordinating) they get extra credit. When they miss, they lose credit. Again you have to be careful to make sure this is not exploited. Obviously doing the same move over and over again is not entertaining. So you'd only be able to get extra credit once every so many moves.
What would this system do to improve entertainment?
First, it would force entertainers to coordinate and try to put on a show, rather than random flourishing. It would reward those that do so and do so well. Second, these shows would therefore be more entertaining, both in character (PC to PC) and out of character (for those watching). Which after all is the point of entertainment. Third, it encourages and rewards at-keyboard play without any need to disable macros, because you can't macro (well) a coordinated show. As soon as one person lags the whole performance would be irrevocably "off." It is hard enough to coordinate just a few musicians to do /pausemusic right, and even people who know what they are doing will mess it up 10% of the time... there's no way you could AFK macro it well.
Now I have left out IDers because I don't really do ID much.. but I think there is a place for them as well. A coordinated and entertaining troup of performers needs to have a good matching look also. So maybe the group could get a bonus if they have all been IDed to look like a similar group (e.g. all the twi'leks are turned blue for the performance) and the IDer could get extra XP for the fact that they are using the IDed features as part of their performance. I'm not sure exactly how to CODE this... but that's not my job. I'm just putting forth an idea. In particular I'd like to see IDers have more to do with actual entertaining than they do right now.
C
When I envisioned my character before the game, I saw myself in a band. A live PC band of players out performing for an audience. Healing mind wounds and such is just icing on the cake for me.
Our profession and the game mechanics surrounding our profession should, in my opinion, reinforce a group. I'm saying nothing for or against our status as the mind healers, I wouldn't change that; however I want to see more incentives for being grouped and touring.
Warriors should have to search a small amount to find good entertainment. Bands should tour the planet, the galaxy, the neighborhood, whatever. There should, however, be a better way to search for live musicians ahead of time. As NewJedi called it, an "Opt-in" system like the bazaar used as a billboard for shows so bands have a way of drawing an audience in addition to word of mouth.
The main reason the push to move us all out of the Coronet Cantina and into the Theater hasn't worked is because everytime we try, we hear this: "no one's there to listen/gain xp from/chat with/etc." A way for bands to announce their presence and a waypoint to the event is needed in order to make entertaining go the way I hoped it would.
I want to see more than 3 active bands per server. I want to see incentives for grouping with the right instrumentations, and incentives for playing well planned songs. I also want to see incentives for playing regular shows in the cantina; currently the only shows that bands put on seem to be weddings or other player events. I want to see room in the "industry" for a few smaller bands (4-5 people) playing small venues and large bands playing the Verni Island theater.
To sum up, I think being an entertainer should have lessto do with our game mechanic of mind healing and more to do with being in a large group playing orgainzed shows. Our emphasis as an industry should not be on solo performance or on random group jams. Our goal as entertainers should be to make the audience want to come and see us, and the game mechanics should reward us for excellent shows.
I've neglected dancers and image designers cause I don't know much about them. I think much above applies easily to dancers.
I hope I didn't stray too far from your intended topic Tiaga 
Kora and I pretty much said the same exact thing, I think.
Coordinated shows should be encouraged, supported, and rewarded over random flourishing.
C
This is going to sound flighty, so bear with me:
To me, the entertainerwas the fundamental link between the player and the community. I say was, becausemany thingshave changed the dynamics of this relationship. Before player cities, the cantinawas pretty much the heart of any NPC city. Everyone had to go there eventually, so as a result, it is a place where people bump into others. Now, since the entertainer practiced their craft within the cantina, the entertainer usually became the facilitator between the characters. I have been asked things such as "if so and so comes in here, let me know," or, "do you know of a good tailor online now," or, "can you hold onto this for someone until he comes on in an hour?" Its the little things like that which made the entertainer INVALUABLE early in the game, when hardly anybody knew each other. Of course, the entertainers liked this aspect too, because theyenjoyed talking to people and learning the latest scoops. This was the golden age of entertainment, and the class pretty much operated as the developers intended. There existed a special bond between the entertainer and his or her community, because theentertainer had to treat the patrons with respect in order to make a living, and those around the community had to make sure the entertainer was taken care of in order to serve the community in not only the tangible healing contexts, but the other, more faciliatory,intangible contexts as well.
The thing that upset this relationship-and I KNOW I'm going to get flamed for this-is guilds. As people started to associate with each other in a moreintroverted fashion, the central place for conducting business was not the cantina, but the guild hall. Instead of saying, "I'll give your armour to Sirii, she works in the cantina at Tyrena," it became, "I'll drop your armour in the guild hall." Instead of saying, "do you know a good tailor?" it became, "we know a good tailor, she's in our guild. Typeher an E-Mail and she'll do it for free." Soon, people started to go to the cantinas ONLY to heal BF and wounds, and NOT to meet other people. Why associate with the outside world when you have your own self-contained world where all services are provided to you? When I started, there were a few PAs, mostly small ones, who still had to interact with the outside world in order to survive: an all crafter guild, or an all Rebel guild of a few real life friends. They still needed a conduit to the rest of the world, which was the entertainer. However, the PA soon discovered that if they could grow to the size where all of their needs were satisfied in-house, they could do without the conduit to the greater community, and, like I said, the entertainer became merely another "resource" a guild had to acquire to be self-sufficient.
Now this is my opinion, and I know some may disagree, but I feel entertainers are for the most part hurt by joining a PA. I have noticed from talking to many entertainers of all levels on my server that those entertainers who do not wear tags generally get more in tips than those who do. Why could that be? Because an entertainer's livelihood DEPENDS on catering to a broad spectrum of the player base in order to make tips. Guild tags may subvert this. Guild members may expect free services in exchange for free clothes, free houses, and whatnot. While this may be an acceptable exchange, it has the effect of pulling the entertainer away from the broader community in favor of the smaller community of the guild. Instead of going to the cantina to service everybody, the entertainer is going on guild hunts on Endor. Also, those opposed to the guild may not tip the entertainer out of spite; and even if a cantina patron has no problem with the guild, they may be reluctant to tip as much, because they say, "She's with XYZ, let XYZ take care of her."
In addition, the emphasis on the entertainer ceased to be the trustworthiness and observant social conduit of the community, and became an individual where the skill at healing BF and wounds became the sunum bonum of existance. People didn't need to go to town to meet others. They only went to town to have their BF healed. Not to go to the bazaar, the guild provided weapons. Not to look to form hunting groups, the guild was the hunting group. ONLY to heal BF. Therefore, boxes had to be filled by hook or by crook. The entertainer's good natured personality was considered less important than the boxes and titles.An entertainer's usefulness to the players were only as much as their skill level. XP became a priority. Then, some entertainer discovered that XP could be gained quicker by combining large groups, high traffic areas, and looping commands. The AFK grinder was born, and with it, all attempts on the part of the player to be the social conduit.
Let's jump to player cities. Now, there are more guilds on my server than I can keep track of, and with the advent of player cities, guilds have become HUGE affairs who really don't need anyone else outside of their city at all. They have people who harvest, people who slice, people who craft, people who fight, and people who heal. The guild does not just live in the city, the guild IS the city, and vice-versa. And what of the entertainer? For those who want to be ATK, those that stay in the player city are for the most part, very bored. Unless there is an event going on, or a raid on a nearby installation, player cities are pretty much empty. NPC cities are also abandoned, save the few "grind capitals" where you have AP criers at the starport, and twenty or more entertainment grinders, none of which are at the keyboard.
So you see, the entertainment profession, in my opinion, was actually working as intended initially for the purposes of being the center of player relations. Over time, as individuals became more insulated from working with others, the entertainment professions ceased to work. It is my opinion that the AFK syndrome did not happen without a cause. I place the cause SQUARELY on the PA system's shoulders.
All thatthe entertainerprofessions are missing is a game to play alone. What I mean is... There is nothing to do as an entertainer that is like a game. There needs to be some enjoyable action that your character performs when you push a button that makes you want to push the button. It's pretty simple... People don't want to push the flourish buttons themselves... It's just not fun.
Add some content please.
Everything that has been said has been dead-on. My thoughts briefly:
- I would like to see more travel and more grouping. Anything to encourage events and actual troupes would be welcome.
- Entertainment should be spontaneous and fun, and visible. Take it out of the cantina. Perform on the street. Advertise events so people know where you are.
- Make it more immersive - what if you could hear the music without /listening? Follow the notes to where the action is!
- An entertainer network, that extends beyond guilds. Make us the social "matchmakers" again.
- An active role in entertaining/healing, instead of a passive.
- Keep the current sense of necessity of entertainment, but make the necessity secondary to the social aspect. People should want to go to entertainers when they don't need to.
I remember my first night in beta and I high-tailed it to the nearest cantina. I got into a group, and I said - what are we doing - and the group leader says " nobody knows, but this sure is fun." I want to recapture the feeling of fun simply by playing together.
PoetDancer wrote:
In addition, the emphasis on the entertainer ceased to be the trustworthiness and observant social conduit of the community, and became an individual where the skill at healing BF and wounds became the sunum bonum of existance
PoetDancer wrote:
An entertainer's usefulness to the players were only as much as their skill level. XP became a priority. Then, some entertainer discovered that XP could be gained quicker by combining large groups, high traffic areas, and looping commands. The AFK grinder was born, and with it, all attempts on the part of the player to be the social conduit.
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PoetDancer wrote:
And what of the entertainer? For those who want to be ATK, those that stay in the player city are for the most part, very bored. Unless there is an event going on, or a raid on a nearby installation, player cities are pretty much empty. NPC cities are also abandoned, save the few "grind capitals" where you have AP criers at the starport, and twenty or more entertainment grinders, none of which are at the keyboard...
Over time, as individuals became more insulated from working with others, the entertainment professions ceased to work.
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Without going into too much detail, that about sums it up. It doesn't take a genius to figure out when somthing is and isn't needed. The need for entertainers is basically nil now set aside [b]healing mind wounds and BF - and now that that task can be accomplished by someone watching someone who is AFK or simply hologrinding, the market for entertainment has been driven into the dirt from which it came.[/b]
I can remember signing up for beta, one of the questions was - what kind of player do you think you are? Choices were explorer, socializer, fighter, etc...and then another - acheiver. Seeing as nowadays in most RPGs and MMORPGS that people correlate power and achievement as fun and success -socialization, quality conversation, [b]and yes even roleplay[/b] have all become worthless. Understand that aside from things such as this - [b]right now the ATK entertainer has nothing more to offer someone that the AFK entertainer can.[/b] Since so few people appreciate socialization, quality roleplay, conversation and things of that nature that only a "real person" can offer, the need or wantfor such people (also known as true entertainers) has become nothing.
The "hubs of the city" have become desolate and lifeless. The cantinas have become nothing but somewhere where you walk in, stare at someone impersonating an NPC while you go get somthing to drink / eat / take a break, then return back to grinding. [b]So few people have fun roleplaying and socializing withstrangers thatit's become a dead art.[/b] And I can tell you without exaggeration that less than a HANDFUL of people that I have EVER seen since launch have EVER initated roleplay with me without me promting them with my own roleplay and them eventually catching on. I'm not saying you have to roleplay to be an entertainer - [b]I'm saying you have to be **edit**ing HUMAN!!![/b]
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NJ62 wrote:
I remember my first night in beta and I high-tailed it to the nearest cantina. I got into a group, and I said - what are we doing - and the group leader says " nobody knows, but this sure is fun." I want to recapture the feeling of fun simply by playing together.
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Holy crap. I seriously almost cried when I read that, because I remember those days of bliss. Back when no one "grinded" back when no one went to go farm xp like it was a job. The game was FUN. It was FUN because people made it fun....because people were psyched to play every day - psyched to see what they could do, who they would meet or bump into, what kind of adventures they would have or even share with other people. Just like described above in the quotes from the GENIUS posts that were made, everyone has become more and more insulated and independent on themselves and their very close friends.
So what do I think an entertainer should be? Perhaps consider this - A wise ruler will seek a means by which his subjects will ALWAYS seek his advice and need his government. [b]Therefore, a wise entertainer will seek a means by which people will ALWAYS need HIM. Not just their SERVICES which can be accomplished by staring at someone impersonating an NPC, but that very PERSON behind the keyboard.[/b]
You know, seeing this question I felt that I had to answer, but I don't even know HOW to answer.
Let's look at it this way. What is an Entertainer in Star Wars? They're simply tools I think. That's how they're portrayed for the most part. Each Entertainer is looking for either fame or a chance to do what they like doing, but to everyone else, it's just another piece of the background. Needless to say, it seems that for the most part Entertainers ARE tools in SWG. Most people in cantinas just need a heal. Sometimes they say hello, but they bolt after they're patched up. Nice...
So, why do people enjoy being Entertainers? I think it's because being a required tool gives opportunity to chat with people and make friends. If BF and Mind Wounds were gone, hardly anyone would come to the Cantina, and no one would enjoy Entertainer. I think that to make Entertainer MORE enjoyable, they need to be made better tools, but not make them more required (people would go to the Cantinas optionally, for fun).
So, what services that would appeal to players should an Entertainer be able to provide? BF and Mind Wound healing is one (required). Image Design is another (not required, but not demanded as much). Buffing is available at Musician/Dancer and is a great example of being an effective, optional tool (even hardcore PvP players that wouldn't go to a cantina unless it was for BFwouldwantto sit for 8 minutes to wear that 90% Composite armor, giving Entertainers a chance to chat with them and make friends).
What new things could they do?
I guess that's up to the community because I'm tapped right now... I think that the way the game is set up, entertainers should be really sought after tools. The more people that have to come see an entertainer on a one-to-one basis, or even group-to-one or group-to-group, the more opportunities for the Entertainer to show people that it's fun to hang out in the cantina and stop grinding/farming for a day.
I mean, how many people have a Dancer that they go to on a regular basis? They all do the same thing. Entertainers are just a drawer full of nameless tools. Give us something to make us stand out, to be appreciated, to make people have a reason to refer their friends to so-and-so because not only can they [provide services x, y, and z] but also make it fun while doing so.
Also, by adding those services, people can still go to an AFKer for the required stuff, but they'll be searching for active players that dedicate time to the profession for an enjoyable time.
Just my thoughts... I'd suggest services, but I can't think of any right now, nor is this the place for defining little things and ideas.
NinjasLovePirates:
I hear you and here's one point I forgot to mention I think: Currently it takes quite a bit of hard work and time to get those special things set up that you are talking about. A gimmik to make you solo or your band stand out at the cantina and get word of mouth advertising for your personal cantina is a large time and ear-to-the-phone work to get that started up. I think many would agree to that.
As mentioned above, what we need is tools to make that work easier and time requirement shorter. I think a few of our posts and threads on this forum have already addressed that but we need more good ideas of ways to facilitate desireable group play and organized troupes and bands.
Sorry for repeating myself. Next time I'll bring some ideas to the board.
Well this thread has been more productive than I hoped. Keep the comments coming in. I'd be interested in hearing from someone who doesn't enjoy the profession though.
I'm seeing a bunch of trends throughout this thread. I'll respond to specific things, but first, let me get down to the meat of the matters.
- Entertainers need more content
Nothing really new here. This has been said over and over again. However, there are some specific areas where more content is needed. The entertainer profession has been solved - there is a simple formula that can be used to get from point A (novice) to point B (master) with as little work in between as possible. In the spirit of Douglas Adams, maybe it is time for the current system to be replaced with something more complex.
- Entertainers don't do much more than just hitting the same flourishes
Again, something that is often mentioned. More specifically, something more interactive, something that gives the player a positive reward. Perhaps a more active role in healing, instead of just passively being there and healing people. Not necessarily a material reward, but something to make people excited to play their entertainer.
- A greater percentage of the entertainer population in cantinas is hologrinders
There is a lot of finger pointing. There is finger pointing at the AFKers chasing off the real entertainers. There is finger pointing at guilds trying to be self sufficient. There is finger pointing at holocrons forcing so many people to become entertainers. And there is finger pointing at the lack of content. The true reason lies somewhere in the middle. I've got a few ideas I'll be tossing out over the next week on this.
- Being an entertainer should reinforce grouping / working together as a group
This sort of exists now. There is a bonus for grouping. However, that's where it ends. There is also a demand for entertainers not to group as much - for them to go to places where players might need more healing, such as advanced planets. However, if you go to Theed or Coronet, you'll see a group of entertainers, but they will be a group of individual entertainers, each doing their own thing with complete disregard for what the rest of the group is doing.
- Cantinas are no longer the social gathering place / hub of activity they used to be
This is something that has come up many times in various forms. I'm not sure there is an easy answer for this. It isn't really entertainer specific, and the fix involves a complete shift of how people play MMORPGs.
- Entertainers have nothing to do on their own
Entertainers are designed as a social profession. However, they are a one trick pony. If you're not out in a group entertaining, you're bored. Even in a group, you can quickly run out of things to do. This is a problem quite unique to entertainers. Every other profession in the game has something they can do solo. Even medics can sit down and craft stims. The only exception to this I can think of is squad leaders, but squad leaders also have some combat skills to get there.
And a few of my own thoughts while reading these responses...
As I said, entertainers are a one trick pony. As it happens, all the entertainer professions share this one trick. There is no tangible difference between an entertainer, a dancer, and a musician, save for buffs, and even that is barely different between the two. At the very least, some additional abilities granted as entertainers progress up the tree would be nice. Something to distinguish someone who has bothered to spend skill points in the profession vs a dabbler who is just there to heal mind. I haven't seen the speed of healing being a significant reason, and it can be hard to find a mind buff, so most players are used to living without.
Another common cry I hear by people who find the class boring is that if you've seen one cantina, you've seen them all. Perhaps having some entertainer specific content, or entertainer specific POIs might be interesting.
And some responses to specific issues... I've picked out some key points from various posts here. Consider this the readers digest version of the thread with editorial comments. 
Chessak wrote:The way things stand now, flourishing is needed but how you flourish is irrelvent. I would like to see this change. Other classes have specials and the sequence of using the specials is important. For instance, as a carbineer, when I fight something big I use actionshot, which causes bleeding, and then usually legshot or something like that. But there is a proper order. You do actionshot first, not last. Start the bleeding at the beginning of the battle (possibly combined with a posture change though that rarely works for me). If you use actionshot at the end it is a waste. So the sequence of events matters -- this is the tactical side of combat.
[...]
It seems to me that just like the need for a carbineer or a TKA artist to put their combat moves in the right order for maximum combat effect, we should have to put our moves in an "entertaining" and pleasing order to have the maximum entertainment effect. Now, we can do that right now and please the other players watching on the other end of the internet, but this does nothing for our experience. Yet it should also be true that doing these "more entertaining" combinations should get more experience for our characters because the are, well, more entertaining. And by being more entertaining, they should heal faster and better. This is very similar to how putting combat moves in the right order kills things faster and better.
A good point, however combatants typically use the same moves for the same type of battle. When I was playing TKA, the formula was warcry, knockdown, and start beating it up. If there was multiple targets I might do something different. If it resisted I might do something different. But in general, that was my battle plan, and it worked pretty much every time. Drawing further lines between the two styles of professions, we find that while combat is also somewhat repetative, it is not macroable. People try, but I can't count the number of times I've seen an AFK corpse in the middle of low level thugs around coronet. I'm talking about the ones with about 200 HAM taking out a pikeman. The difference is that in combat, things can go wrong. There is risk. As people point out often, there is no risk in entertaining. Should there be?
KoraJubali wrote:
Our profession and the game mechanics surrounding our profession should, in my opinion, reinforce a group. I'm saying nothing for or against our status as the mind healers, I wouldn't change that; however I want to see more incentives for being grouped and touring.
I think this should be expanded on to be consistent in the style of play it encourages. On one hand, we're encouraged to group to get better xp, on the other hand, we're encouraged to go to out of the way places where entertainment is needed. However, the grouping we are encouraged is just that - grouping. Not working together, just grouping.
PoetDancer wrote:
Before player cities, the cantina was pretty much the heart of any NPC city. Everyone had to go there eventually, so as a result, it is a place where people bump into others.
A very interesting point. I remember when I was still an up and coming dancer trying to make ends meet, like many others I took up resource harvesting to pay the bills. I quickly discovered the cantina was the absolutely best place to find new customers. I think that was a great aspect of the game, and if we can get that back, it would be a big bonus.
However, that is quite a large thing to bite off. To get this back isn't a change to the entertainer class, but a fundamental change to how people play MMORPGs.
NJ62 wrote:
- An active role in entertaining/healing, instead of a passive.
- Keep the current sense of necessity of entertainment, but make the necessity secondary to the social aspect. People should want to go to entertainers when they don't need to.
I remember my first night in beta and I high-tailed it to the nearest cantina. I got into a group, and I said - what are we doing - and the group leader says " nobody knows, but this sure is fun." I want to recapture the feeling of fun simply by playing together.
An active role is an interesting idea. Something actively done towards a wounded player to heal them. I'll probably be starting another discussion thread on the possibilities for doing this sometime this week.
When the game was fresh, entertainers were still discovering what could be done. Spotlights got oohs and ahhs, and so few people had them. It was the fun of tearing open a pile of wrapped gifts - discovering what there is, and exploring what you can do with it. As the game got older, the entertainer profession has been "solved". There is a formula that says do X then Y then Z and you'll get master. And all players have to do is X then Y then Z. No deviation at all required. This isn't something unique to entertainer, but that doesn't make it any less something to be considered.
TheOneWag wrote:
The need for entertainers is basically nil now set aside healing mind wounds and BF - and now that that task can be accomplished by someone watching someone who is AFK or simply hologrinding, the market for entertainment has been driven into the dirt from which it came.
This is definately a concern. More to the point, there is nothing to distinguish one entertainer from the next. Entertainers are interchangable. Crafters can compete in price, convenience, responsiveness to queries, quality of products... Combatants can compete in getting better gear and using a better combination of skills... Medics can compete in having better stims, and in skill on the battlefield... Entertainers don't compete, they work together. As a result, there is no individuals, it is all just the entertainers. And what does it matter if there is one more, since there will always be the entertainers there to heal those who need healing.
NinjasLovePirates wrote:
So, what services that would appeal to players should an Entertainer be able to provide?
A very good question, and perhaps the answer could solve some of the other issues. For example, the service could be something that could give entertainers a chance to stand out from the crowd, and give people a reason to seek them out, and to recommend them to others by name instead of by profession.
Thank you all for the wonderful input. With the great response I will be doing many more of these. My goal is to be able to narrow down a list of exactly what we want, not just abstractions. Abstractions are met with a nod and "Yeah that's a good idea, we'll look into it" then noting else. However, concrete ideas have a much better chance of getting a more solid response, weather positive or negative. At least a "An interesting idea, but there is no way we could dedicate developer resources to implementing that" would be something. As I said, I don't expect the developers to suddenly smack themselves on the forehead and say "Duh!" to one of the ideas.