Entertainer Archive
Thread: Do I tip enough for the service you provide?
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PurpleWarrior
Sat Jul 03, 2004 1:50 pm
#1
I have always tipped 2cpu for wounds healed and BF healed, I've taught my family to tip the same way.
Are we tipping fairly? I regularly have 250BF and probably a total of 300 wounds across the mind stats so whoever I choose to watch/listen to gets 1100 credits.
Does that make it worth them standing in a Cantina dancing for me, or not?
I don't mind if you're a Master Dancer or a Novice Entertainer, I pay the same and would value your opinions equally.
DarkY0da
Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:27 pm
#2
wow pfft any tipping for healing is great. I very very very very(x99999) rarely see tipping for healing.
PoetDancer
Sat Jul 03, 2004 4:50 pm
#3
PurpleWarrior:
I'm afraid tipping is not a convention that is subject to a formula. But here is a good list of criteria you should use:
--Did the entertainer make an effort to greet you at the door?
--Did the entertainer engage you and amuse you? A good trick to use is to count how long you have your ctrl-c screen up as opposed to examining his or her chat bubbles.
--Was the entertainer aesthetically pleasing to you? In other words, did the dancer's dance, attire, and demeanor correspond to the music? Was the musician's composition and orchestration with other musicians pleasing to your ear? Or did these things seem choppy and incoherent?
--Did the entertainer give you a proper send off, or a "thank you" tell?
--Do you want to encourage this particular entertainer to continue an entertainment career?
If these things were done, feel free to tip in accordance to how successful the entertainer was in doing these things. Notice something, however. I NEVER mentioned healing or buffs. That is because these things alone are not the criteria for tipping, and quite frankly, if you tip players that do nothing but heal and buff you, they will have no incentive to do anythingabove and beyondhealing and buffing you. Healing, and even buffs, are expected, but you should expect more from your cantina experience. We depend on you, PurpleWarrior, to encourage those who amuse you in the cantina, and discourage those who simply give you the game mechanics and do not even care that you are watching them or not. It makes the cantinas better. It makes healing more fun. And it gives entertainers a goal and a reward: to be entertaining.
Kyorlana
Sat Jul 03, 2004 6:52 pm
#4
Although it isn't a formula... there is an excellent Tipperama Guide by Eatmo on the Galaxies Entertainer Site.
PurpleWarrior
Sun Jul 04, 2004 1:26 am
#5
Kyorlana wrote:
Although it isn't a formula... there is an excellent Tipperama Guide by Eatmo on the Galaxies Entertainer Site.
That made me chuckle - yes, I see his point though. I'll give it some thought, although my 'minimum tip' already sems to be slightly over his maximum.
My formula works well for me because in general the damage I have taken reflects how much I've earned on missions, etc. Had quite ahappy wookie dancer one day after I tipped him when I had 660BF and about 500 total mind wounds. (I'd been busy...)
I'll consider applying the Tipperama principles to my choice of entertainer though.
Beery
Sun Jul 04, 2004 6:14 am
#6
"Although it isn't a formula... there is an excellent Tipperama Guide by Eatmo on the Galaxies Entertainer Site. "
Well the only problem with that site is that in order to get Eatmo's best rating as an entertainer you must not roleplay an entertainer. Eatmo's guide states:
"The entertainer whopays attention toyou specifically, isgreat forconversation, comes over toyou, anddoes thier jobbetter than anyone inthe business"
Firstly, it's a contradiction in terms. You can't entertain unless you're dancing or playing, and you can't dance or play if you're walking over to the customers. This would mess up any dance or musicalarrangement you've created. Secondly, if you're a musician, all instruments except the Nalargon, the Ommni Box and the Mandoviol are wind instruments. If you're playing a wind instrument you're not going to be talking during a set. Similarly, whoever heard of a dancer who chatted to his/her audience during a dance. Maybe in a strip club. But I think we ought to be getting away from that particular misconception about our role, don't you?
Eatmo's guide basically rewards entertainers who are not serious about their profession. Eatmo advocates the rewarding of entertainers who are more interested in performing their in-game duty of healing and their social duty of chatting, than they are in playing their role in the Star Wars universe. Now I have no problem with chatting - I often do it during a song - probably more than I should given that I like to see myself as a roleplayer. But I don't thinkchattingshould be the mainprerequisite for receiving a good tip. The art of the music and of the dance should be the most important thing. I spend hours creating unusual and interesting musical numbersarranged together in a way that theykeepmy audience engaged. Any idiot can write a macro that merely heals fast and allows them to chat to customers. I can write that macro in two minutes - /startmusic; /flourish 1; /flourish 1; /pause 10; /flourish 2; /flourish 2; /pause 10; /flourish 3; etc until the looping/ui action toolbarSlot##. No art in it. When combined with a high-level instrument and a high-level tune it just amounts toa mechanical heal machinesimilar toany buffbot. Eatmo is saying that this is the ultimate entertainer. I disagree. To me there's much more to it than that.
Message Edited by Beery on 07-04-2004 09:21 AM
PoetDancer
Sun Jul 04, 2004 8:06 am
#7
Who says you have to stop dancing to go to the tableside? If you do it right, you can "dance your way" to a customer. I was never more convinced of this than when I saw Sultrina, who is a master at using travelling flourishes as found in Formal and Lyrical combined with /changedance to go to any point she wanted in the cantina. And moreover, who says that an entertainer needs to be dancing or playing to be amusing? We have aton of moods, emotes, and dialouge types that are at our disposal to amuse the patron before and after our performance, and are getting more in subsequent publishes. 1000 new emotes?!? I have barely mastered the application and the contexts of our old ones, and I have been playing for the lion's share of the year.
The common misconception aboutthese professions is that it is boringly simple what we do. And for those that do not go beyond skill animating, it does seem simple. But the truth of the matter is that nothing can be further from the case. These are professions that are RICH in technique, and the techniques are all centered around the same goal: to amuse the patrons. And the very simplicity of the design of these professions leave plenty of options and tools available to the particular entertainer in question.
I have never really understood this fully until I came to Bria around early April. Before that time, on Intrepid, I stuck to what I was good at: creating witty conversations andcharming songs. It was a formula that worked. But it took Sultrina and the opportunity to level again to show me a completely different facet of performance that I had been neglecting: technical mastery. You seem to follow this school, Beery, and hats off to you. Because it IS difficult to arrange the elements of composition in such a way as to make it novel and amusing. I'm working on improving this aspect of my performance. Indeed, we allcould improve onthese things, Beery.
The quest to get better at entertaining does NOT stop with the ability to do exotic4, play the Mandolian, and perform virtuoso. And I think I'm preaching to the choir here on this one.
But what we need from the audience is for you to be the judge of what is bad or good, so we can get better. You all have to be the ultimate judge on if we are doing something right, and one of the ways you do this is by tipping the things you like to see and hear. Can I tell you what that will be? Can Eatmo tell you what it will be? No. All I can do is to combine my tools in such a way that I think may possibly amuse you. Because you are going to get your BF healing and mind wounds healed in any case, be it from me, or Beery, or the buffbot. Doesn't change my gameplan at all. Because the people who play this thing long enough will tell you that being /watched and /listened to is not as important as being actually watched and listened to.
But what we need from the audience is for you to be the judge of what is bad or good, so we can get better. You all have to be the ultimate judge on if we are doing something right, and one of the ways you do this is by tipping the things you like to see and hear. Can I tell you what that will be? Can Eatmo tell you what it will be? No. All I can do is to combine my tools in such a way that I think may possibly amuse you. Because you are going to get your BF healing and mind wounds healed in any case, be it from me, or Beery, or the buffbot. Doesn't change my gameplan at all. Because the people who play this thing long enough will tell you that being /watched and /listened to is not as important as being actually watched and listened to.Message Edited by PoetDancer on 07-04-2004 10:15 AM
Beery
Sun Jul 04, 2004 10:56 am
#8
"Who says you have to stop dancing to go to the tableside? If you do it right, you can "dance your way" to a customer."
Yes. And by the time you get to him, he'll probably be with some buffbot. I'd like to see a musician 'dance over to a table' without stopping his music. It ain't gonna happen. Anyway, it's not really that I care who 'serves' the customer his buff or heal. I haven't done this job for money in a long time. For me, it's a matter of my 'role' as a musician.
The notion of us 'dancing over to a table' strikes me as somewhatoffensive. We are performers, not strippers. The only dancers I know ofthat give personal service are in strip clubs where they give 'personal dances'. I roleplay a regular musician - I don't know any musicians who talk while they're playing a piano, or who stop in mid-song to greet someone who just walked into the bar. That sort of thing would be deeply disrespectful to other customers who are enjoying the music, not to mention how disrespectful it would be to the composer and to the art form itself. I don't see why, in aroleplaying game,I should quit roleplaying in order to do something that's completely out of character for the profession I'm supposed to be playing. I also don't see why I should be expected to speak in the middle of a tune,distracting customers from a composition thattook me hours tocraft, and which they enjoy listening to purely for its artistry. To act in such a way justseems wrong to me.
In my opinion, meeting and greeting should be something a Maitre'D or a bartenderdoes. Itshould havenothing to do with our job. The fact that it's what most people base their tips, and their appreciation,on is indicative of a basic ignorance of what entertainers do. We are not waiters, we are not lapdancers, we are not high-paid escorts, we are not bartenders. We are musicians and dancers. We should be appreciated for our music and our dance arrangements.
Those who want to chat or give personalized service to customers have every right to do so, BUT they have no right to expect me to act in a way that is contrary to therole I'm supposed to be playing.
Message Edited by Beery on 07-04-2004 02:27 PM
Kyorlana
Mon Jul 05, 2004 2:43 pm
#9
This is interesting as I am also a full time roleplayer and I take the profession very seriously as anyone who knows me knows (cf Talus Moon link in my sig).
First of all, although musicians are limited to standing in one place to perform and shouldn't be talking with an instrument in their mouth (unless they are some sort of alien with two mouths), dancers are NOT limited in this way.
It is perfectly possible (I do it, and I am sure others do) to catch someone's attention and make your way across the dance floor to them. There are a number of dance emotes you can do this with through use of camera andles, or floing then /cdpr to be on the spot for a bit, then move with another flo again (rhythmic 1 is great for this).
I agree that the artform is all important and have spent much time perfecting my music, dance, and scoring skills (i.e. band scoring for songs, not meaningless macros).
However... cantinas are not theatres. When I do a serious show, I take it to the theatre or other venue (depends on gig booking). Cantinas are for a more interactive style of entertaining in my opinion. I used to perform in the Dearic hotel all the time as Performer in Residence as the atmosphere there was more conducive to art performance.
My point is, using Eatmo's ideas does not necessarily mean you have to play out of character. Hope that makes sense.
First of all, although musicians are limited to standing in one place to perform and shouldn't be talking with an instrument in their mouth (unless they are some sort of alien with two mouths), dancers are NOT limited in this way.
It is perfectly possible (I do it, and I am sure others do) to catch someone's attention and make your way across the dance floor to them. There are a number of dance emotes you can do this with through use of camera andles, or floing then /cdpr to be on the spot for a bit, then move with another flo again (rhythmic 1 is great for this).
I agree that the artform is all important and have spent much time perfecting my music, dance, and scoring skills (i.e. band scoring for songs, not meaningless macros).
However... cantinas are not theatres. When I do a serious show, I take it to the theatre or other venue (depends on gig booking). Cantinas are for a more interactive style of entertaining in my opinion. I used to perform in the Dearic hotel all the time as Performer in Residence as the atmosphere there was more conducive to art performance.
My point is, using Eatmo's ideas does not necessarily mean you have to play out of character. Hope that makes sense.
Beery
Mon Jul 05, 2004 4:59 pm
#10
"However... cantinas are not theatres. When I do a serious show, I take it to the theatre or other venue (depends on gig booking). Cantinas are for a more interactive style of entertaining in my opinion."
But Star Wars cantinas (meaning the ones in the movies)have set shows set aside from the customers. If I recall correctly they don't have dancers wandering from table to table, and I know of no non-exoticnight club IRLthat has such dancers. Personalized table dancing is, as far as I know, an exotic dancing (meaning strip club)thing.
If you want to give personalized dancing service, that's fine for you. It's your choice, and I support you in whatever you want to do as your art form. But I get the distinct impression that Eatmo thinks that this is theONLY level of service that really counts as worthy of reward. I don't know, it just strikes me that this expectation is built around a misconception of what our truejob is. When I'm dancing (actually I haven't danced in months, but I have danced), I'm not doing a personalized dance. My dance is a more formal show, no matter whether I'm doing it in a cantina or in a hotel. I simply don't see why my preferred dancing style should get less regard simply because Eatmo thinks that a personalized dancing styleis the optimum.
Message Edited by Beery on 07-05-2004 08:04 PM
Drygo
Mon Jul 05, 2004 11:03 pm
#11
I agree with Beery here. While I certainly do chat up my customers and give personal attention, that's not really what I consider to be entertaining. That's cool if someone else does and don't begrudge them that, everyone has their own personal playstyles. But, my view of entertaining worthy of tips is actually putting on a show. For a musician, that means combining songs and flourishes and their light effects into something interesting. For a dancer, that means combining dances, flourishes, and effects into something entertaining. And, these days we also have the help of our droids for these things.
I think that everyone has had different experiences, some people have been able to get a decent amount of tips by doing the chatty, personal service thing. Personal service I only really do when I'm buffing, chatty I do just because I can't keep my trap shut. And, yes, I think I have gotten some tips from doing these things. However, from my perspective, it appears that when I get the most tips, other than buffing, is because I've actually done something cool with the actual performance. For example, when the troupe that I'm with plays, we get tips, and fairly large amounts, because of our performance. The vast majority of the time we simply don't have time, and are too consumed with getting our performance right by organizing in group chat, to actually interact much with the audience. We get the tips because we look and sound good and you can tell we enjoy what we're doing. Most of our talking is really in the form of singing songs, and not actually talking to the customers. Also, when I'm doing my thing solo, and using all kinds of effects and cool dance moves, or playing with my droid, I like to think the tips I get are because people are kind of into my performance. A lot of times I am not even in a Cantina. I've been out at starports dancing or playing music, not talking to anyone at all, not healing, not buffing, but I've gotten tips--solely because of my performance. And, for me, that's what entertaining is about. And, when I'm not entertaining, but actually being entertained--that's when I do most of my tipping. Edited to add: For example, I tipped a group of entertainers once because they were all wearing skin tight suits and doing poplock2 /bandflo's. I thought that was entertaining. LOL
Message Edited by Drygo on 07-05-2004 11:20 PM
Aleyo
Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:06 am
#12
PurpleWarrior wrote:I have always tipped 2cpu for wounds healed and BF healed, I've taught my family to tip the same way.
Wow, 2 cpus just for healing your mind? Are these cpus capable of being used together for a dual processor machine, or are they single-processor only? Intel or Athlon?
*groans at his own stupid joke*
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