Entertainer Archive
Thread: Raph Koster's Online Laws
No matter what you do, someone is going to automate the process of playing your world.
Looking at what parts of your game players tend to automate is a good way to determine which parts of the game are tedious and/or not fun.
Message Edited by JohnMarble on 07-23-2004 07:03 PM
That second quote isn't truly apt, since there are plenty of people who enjoy playing ATK entertainers. The better question is why do those people who don't enjoy entertaining feel the need to do it and macro it? (especially now that hologrinding is no longer an excuse)
The Laws of Online World Design Revisited
Counterpoint: Koster is an Idiot, But so is Schild
JohnMarble wrote:
Koster was lead designer on this game, and five or so years ago he compiled a bunch of lawsfor MMORPG design, which you can find on his webpage.
This is the one I think everybody should find interesting:
No matter what you do, someone is going to automate the process of playing your world.
This is why they added the macro system to the client, and this is why they'll never remove the /join command from the macros, or do anything else to eliminate buffbots. Because, they believe, this cannot be stopped. We can argue whether or not that law is correct, because some games are certainly more easy to bot than others. Personally, I see thislike a government saying, "no matter how many laws you pass or how many police you have, people will always murder one another. So issue everyone a handgun, to level the playing field, and make murder legal."
Regardless, that law is central to the philosophy of SWG, so we can't fight it. Removing recursive macros may be the obvious solution, but they'll never do it. I really hope they implement something similar to the idea in the in-concept thread, even though it wouldn't be the best solution. Why? Because it sounds like it could be done with little new programming. I've read a lot of better ideas in that thread, but if they decided to pick one of those instead, we'd get it in-game in two years.
Interesting, they hold that law so dear,as theyseem to have ignored, from the outset, the law immedietly following it, as they implemented their holocron system:
Looking at what parts of your game players tend to automate is a good way to determine which parts of the game are tedious and/or not fun.
Message Edited by JohnMarble on 07-23-2004 07:03 PM
Everything you say here is both true and unfortunate. The thing that I don't think the devs really thought throughwhen implementing their all encompassing afk macro system, is, quite simply, how much of a negative impact it would have on the game. Yes, people will always find a way to automate systems. But, is the development resources that you would use to try to stop people from doing it causing more damage to the game, or is allowing it to run rampant causing more damage to the game?
I've played several games in the past. No game is perfect, obviously. But, there are many games out there who are able to achieve a balance between churning out new content and stopping the use of 3rd party programs. The people behind SWG went to an unnecessary extreme, IMO, in order to supposedly produce more content. Whether they have been able to produce more content and fix bugs by freeing up these resources is no doubt debatable. But, I would argue that by implementing this system they have greatly decreased the amount of fun and playability to be had in an otherwise superb game. I'm very happy with SWG in most respects. But, I know, without a doubt, that if I ever stop playing, it will be because of the completely afk macro system. The devs claim that this puts everyone on an even playing field. But, the reality is that this isn't true. There is a large group of people who enjoy and feel like playing completely at the keyboard yields the most rewards and fun from an MMORPG. SWG has basically alienated these people. While it's true that everyone can certainly choose to go the route of afk, the reality is that there are a lot of people who don't want to do this. And, it puts an entire playstyle at a huge and distinct disadvantage, thereby ruining the game experience for many. Nobody should feel like they are forced to play afk in order to stay on a level playing field. But, with this system in place, that is exactly what is happening. Those of us who want and choose to play entirely ATK are disadvantaged greatly. So, in essence, by implementing a dev sanctioned afk macro system, we are truly no better off than a game that doesn't allow it, but has illegal 3rd party programs.
I wish that I still had the newbie glee that I once had playing this game. But, one thing that I have learned is that whatever game I may choose to play in the future, I will do my homework. I will find out the devs policy on afk and macro and make a decision accordingly. That is, any game that has a system like SWG has will not be a recipient of my hard earned money. I absolutely refuse to get involved with another game that makes my particular playstyle obsolete.
The devs have clearly stated that they don't like afk. They know, as well as we do, that it has caused an inordinate amount of damage to an otherwise superb game. I can only hope that any future games that are being developed learn from SWG's mistakes in this matter.
But, also as you have said, it's a part of this game, and it's here to stay. The devs allowed it to get to a point where removing it would cause an outrage among the player base. They can't remove it now. They've backed themselves in a corner. All they can hope to do is walk a fine balancing act by trying to reward people who play atk, while simultaneously allowing the afk to go on indefinitely. It's a hard thing to do, and I have serious doubts that it can be successful. But, I like this game, and I'll be playing for awhile still. But, I know that when I quit, the main reason is going to be because of afk, which I know they will never remove. Hopefully they have learned from this mistake. I know I have.
You have to give players a sense of ownership in the game. This is what will make them stay--it is a "barrier to departure." Social bonds are not enough, because good social bonds extend outside the game. Instead, it is context. If they can build their own buildings, build a character, own possessions, hold down a job, feel a sense of responsibility to something that cannot be removed from the game--then you have ownership."
)
Ravanne_Esi wrote:
Actually, if you think about it, the ability to play the game AFK with built in macro capability is not a big deal and would not normally be much of a problem. What is a big deal and has caused all of the problems is that the DEVs in their infinate short-sighted wisdom instituted a reason to AFK macro, the holocron Jedi grind. If not for the holocraze AFK macroing would never have been more than a minor issue. Time and time again we see that the biggest harm to the game is being caused by the inablity of the DEV team to forsee the consequences of their design decisions. Many times we've seen things incorporated into the game that the player community has warned them would be a problem. It's time someone at SOE started paying attention to these warnings.
Drygo wrote:They're finding out, more than likely, that if they had never allowed this game to have this afk macro system, they would be allocating just as many resources, possibly even less, to simply try to curb the use of 3rd party programs.
Its two different kinds of resources though. Curbing third party software means that you have to figure out how it works, and more likely, what doesn't work about your software that its exploiting. There is nothing 'technically' wrong with the execution of the afk macroing now; its working as intended. Thus, the problem here is more of a design issue. And I'd have to think its easier to deal with redesigning/modifying something you completely understand, than having to sort through code either you didn't write (assuming they can get code for the cheats) or scouring your own code for previously undiscovered exploits. As you pointed out, they dealt with this already for the surveyors, so its just a matter of deciding how to deal with this for the entertainers, and then executing it.
Of course, if they did "completely understand" their own system, perhaps we wouldn't have had this problem in the first place.
Ultimately, Koster's Rules, while written for MMOG developers, don't only affect them. When Koster says that people will AFK macro regardless of what the devs do, that's something we as players also need to accept. We can't eliminate all AFK-macro'ers. The best we can hope for is that their net effect will be minimal, or marginalized.