Entertainer Archive
Thread: Deila's On Interdependency for Entertainers within SWG
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Xyrdre
Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:27 pm
#1
Introduction
Of all of the products or services that this player economy is comprised of,the services of Entertainersare the only ones that can simply be taken. I think this is in large part why entertainers are often treated poorly and with contempt, and certainly why we have no remotely dependableincome in our structured system of tipping. I believe that the results of our current environment are that interdependency for the entertainer professions has been reduced to almost meaningless levels.
On Tipping
The concept of tipping entertainers for our services is a good one. However,it presupposes a player-base mature enough to recognize the value of others, and I think that this is where the system breaks down.
The players who are mature enough to recognize the value in entertainer servicesare still tipping... at times. The vast majority these days are not. And even of those mature enough to participate in this system, they are given very little incentive to see value in a sea of AFK robots. They correctly deduce that if the entertainer playerputs forth zero effort (i.e., is not even present at thekeyboard), that they deserve zero reward.And the system that permits full-automation has now conditionedeven these morematureplayers to often forget to look for the value inherent in our services, and have simply forgotten that entertainers, when actively performing their game mechanics, are providing something of value, worth, and deserving of reward.
On Interdependency, and of Active Control of Game Mechanics
If someone walked up to a medic/doc for wound healing and were rude, demanding, or offensiveto the medic,the rude player would be looking for another medic to heal them in very short order.If someone could simply walk up to a master weaponsmith, and by using the WS's radial menuhave a krayted weapondispensed for free,no onewould bother to pay for weapons any more.
All game mechanics of a professionmust be actively controlled bya player if the professions responsible for providing thosegame mechanics are to be recognized as valuable.For the entertainer professions,only the /setperform command for buffing currentlyis anactive dispersal of mechanics, and even the process of administeringentertainer buffs actively is derailed by the inclusion of a passive option which can be fully automated. All of our healing mechanics are currently passive.
There have been fears put forth by the community outside of the entertainer professions that if entertainer healing mechanics were actively controlled and distributed by the entertainer, that there would be a shortage of service providers available. SWG already has safeguards built in for this possibility, both for medic/doc wound healingand entertainer BF and wound healing.If one cannot find a living medic toheal their wounds (an active process, initiated by a live player), they can sit in a med center to heal slowly (a passive process initiated by the environment). If one cannot find a living entertainer to heal their BF/mind wounds, they can sit in a cantina to heal those slowly as well... exactly the same way.
This next concept is deserving of close scrutiny:
The foundation oftheseconceptual principles - that active player interaction is superior to passive environmental mechanics -encourages that people make the effort to work with other players, over a static non-player driven solution.I fully believethat this is the way SWG was intended to be.This is the magic word... interdependency. Interdependency is encouraged (rapid healingwith players providing the service), but not forced (slow healing without players providing the service).
Macroed automation of an avatar is not a played character. AFK entertainers (or otherfully automated avatar in any profession) that are performing game functions as driven by a looping macroare not player characters while they are notbeing actively played by a person at the other end.It is an NPC, a static non-player character, driven by the same coding as any NPC found in static cities walking around spouting preprogrammed statements ("Can I help you?" / "Tipz n healz, plz!"), and only interactive insofar as it's been preprogrammed (Converse to get a mission / watch to get entertainer healing, and now evenbuffs).
It is my opinion that no NPC in the game should be granted rights over a played character, and a played character should, and must, be superior in every way to coded NPC's, which includes those created by a player, but controlled wholly by coding (AFK skill performers). Without superior advantage, there is no reason to be a PC.
We've seen the results of permitting fully passive game mechanics with unattended automation:
- The near annihilation of the practice oftipping - the intended solemeans of economic viability for entertainers, musicians and dancers;
- Unilateral loss of respect for the entertainer professionsby the rest of the player base;
- The transition of the cantina environment from Social Hub to a Hell on Corellia (Naboo, Tatooine, etc.)
- Replacement of the roles ofactive, interested players of entertainers by automated machines, and;
- Exodus of players from the entertainerprofessions, often resulting in those players leaving SWG entirely
Conclusion
I put forth that the combined effects ofpermitting full automation of the entertainer professions, alongwith passive game mechanics, has fully destroyed the true and intended interdependency of these professions. As a result of the destruction ofthe interdependent value ofentertainers,there is a dramatically reduced appeal of these professionsfor players considering playing them, staying with them, or remaining as SWG subscribers.
I firmly believe that if the social playstyle is to remain viable and attractive, steps must be taken to return value to the entertainer player, and to return interdependency based on the player having advantage over the coded environment.
Amida_Enterprises
Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:32 am
#2
I was thinking and maybe it could be combined with the 'flourish on demand' idea for faster healing?
like.. if someone asks you for a certain flourish, he automatically slips 100 credits in your bank per requested flourish ?
that would make it fair I think.. faster and better healing/buffing while the dancer/musician makes a living?
)
ArgentWulf
Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:43 am
#3
Another astute and well thought post Deila! Some very excellent points brought up. I'm sure glad you are in our corner! 
Esharra
Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:11 am
#4
Xyrdre wrote:
The entertainer resource is time.
I could dance in my pink composite and avoid high level dances and flourishes to save the expense of costuming and accarragm, but I dare say the audience would not find it interesting.
NewJedi
Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:51 am
#5
Nice post. And Esharra, I for one would still find it interesting to watch someone dance in pink composite.
Straker_Atrella
Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:10 am
#6
Good post, I agree totally. Hopefully when the grind stops, a lot of AFKers will dissapear. At that point it will be easier to see the real people. Perhaps then the rudeness and assumption that all Entertainers are holo grinders will vanish.
At that point, it will be easier to see exactly what can be done for Entertainers without negatively affecting others. If "live" Entertainer buffsare more desirable then afk buffs,I think most of the AFK buffs willdissapear. The new proposed system is good, but not nearly enough.
Equatorsm
Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:02 pm
#7
Nice post.
Also, wouldn't the /denyservice command be considered a means of controlling the exploitation of your services? This, of course, assuming you're alone in a cantina, or in group setting in which all players /denyservice until payment has been rendered. Yes; these conditions are rare, even theoretical at best, and the current system message "%TT denies you service." does harm any social encounters that might otherwise have occured, but desperate times call for desperate measures, no?
Perhaps a game mechanic is required, similar to the /setperform command. Performers could have a command to use their healing abilities on a player, instead of said abilities being passively available to the public. Just the same way that a medic has the /healwound command.
So far, I think the justification for this has been that medics require resources for their abilities to be valuable. I think that resources or not, in the current state of the game, the cost of a medpack is insignificant in comparison to the need for a sustainable income for another profession. The only group that would suffer significantly would be new players, but that could be solved with rewards from their droid quests.
Just some thoughts to ponder...
{EDIT: /chuckle... Haven't been on the entertainer boards in a while... Looking around, it seems I've just rehashed the mutual feelings of every ATK entertainer in Galaxies.
Well, repititon is a good way of getting your point across, I s'pose.}
Message Edited by Equatorsm on 07-19-2004 12:08 AM
Xyrdre
Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:18 pm
#8
Just a couple of clarifications, in response to the previous post.
The idea of targeted, active entertainer healing makes the /deny concept moot. And it looks as if you've come to the same conclusion.
The medics do require resources for their healing, just as entertainers require resources for ours. The entertainer resource is time. It is why our BF/mind wound healing cannot be instantly performed the way wound packs can heal, and why our buffs take 3:20 seconds for one or two stats when docs buff 6 stats in far less time. Medics/docs require material resources, entertainers require temporal ones. I find this to be equitable, reasonable, and within the conceptual realms of both professions.
Tarnak_Archvold
Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:30 pm
#9
Amida_Enterprises wrote:like.. if someone asks you for a certain flourish, he automatically slips 100 credits in your bank per requested flourish ?
Question: In what RL profession does dancers perform specific moves purely for the benefit of a single customer, in exchange for cash?
That is not the type of profession I wand to se the 3 entertainer professions turned in to. Its bad enough that many customers already think that it is our duty to heal them.
Besides if there was a automated payment for faster healing, then that would just be a argument for NOT paying for the slow healing.
If we had to use a command like the /setperform to activate BF/mind healing, we would be far better off. Personally, I would still do buffs and BF/mind healing for whatever the customers thought the healing was worth to them, just as I am doing now. The difference would be that the could not just take the healing in the first place but had to be given it, and thus it would be more appreciated.
Amida_Enterprises
Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:13 pm
#10
I was just mindspinning to benefit the people trying to earn a living this way, if I want cash I'll go hunt Rancors..
at least it wouldn't come down to flourishing all the flourishes requested, and then getting a 1credit tip like some people have experienced.. I never intended to suggest we should all become 'exotic dancers' so please take no offense?
Tarnak_Archvold
Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:32 am
#11
Amida_Enterprises wrote:I never intended to suggest we should all become 'exotic dancers' so please take no offense?
I am not that easy to offend, and I never thought you wanted entertainers to become the 'exotic dancer' variants. The question is simply how most of the players we deal with will reason; I doubt the many immature people we already encounter would se the finer points.
What ever solution is implemented have to be one that makes the combaters view us the right way. Not as 'exotic dancers' or the like, not as someone who duty it is to cure thair BF and buff them, but as someone who can entertain them during thair down time. We have to be seen as someone providing a valuable service.
Phartrak
Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:22 am
#12
I'm not an entertainer...nor even a hologrinder...just a player who misses the days of fun, frolic and exploration in game...where it seemed we really "lived" in the game. The cornerstone of that experience, has always been the cantina in my mind. Folks would meet up and gather for hunts, trading, socializing, etc. The other big gathering points were the Med Centers for after the hunts and the Bazaar for slicing and trading and general gathering of folks. Reason I'm stating all this, is that basically all three of these main gathering areas have been devestated by the hologrinding insanity. I remember awhile back you could find full bands in the cantinas with several dancers as well...(all masters) with Tailors and ID's sitting at the tables with their bots doing their trades and the Med Centers were full of Master Docs who could heal your poison/disease and lots of budding medics to help out with the healing. Master Smugglers and Master CH's crowded the bazaars selling their skills and pets and creating a true bazaar feel to entering the city. These were the fun times in game.
I'm not sure if real game mechanics need to be changed as much as to somehow return the focus to actually working on a profession vs the hologrind. For myself I actively seek out live ATK folks and give them my business vs the AFK folks on any occasion. There may be an AFK Master Dancer in the cantina who's all sexy and decked out...but I'll give my 5k tip for just some basic healing to the scruffy-looking wookie dancer in the corner...cause they are actually there and said hello. And that's my point, if we could all just focus on seeking out the real folks and rewarding them well, eventually the AFK's would disappear. My other hope is that with the end of hologrinding coming soon...that there may a chance to return to some semblance of the original immersion of the game...but then there's the whole.."everyone's a Jedi" thing too.
It's really a shame to see something so cool...just die out...
CM_Ronin
Tue Jul 27, 2004 6:33 pm
#13
I think every cantina should have a cover charge and Entertainers can speak to the bartender there and get "stage time" and they could earn a percentage of the cover charge that way, this and the whole popularity points sytem, read in concept thread on entertainer missionsand the Player EVent Tools Thread in the EVent forums for better understanding of popularity points, its somewhat similar to Faction points you earn PP (popularity points) doing ent missions and gigs, and using a gig terminal players can even hire you for their own cantina or RP event such as a wedding and you earn PP for all of these. PP can be used to gain rank, much like the FP promotion but you could call it "fame" it gives you access to higher Populairty perks just like in FP, and higher paying gig missions. (Would you pay more to see justin timberlake in concert or the guy on amateur night at the local pub?) PP could also be used to buy Ent items such as new instruments with actual enhancements on them, customizeable possibly? A New Dance or song ? This is where we need to focus on. Alo Armorsmiths and Droid Engineers, and everyone else is starting to get these epic quests (look at mando and RIS armor and jetpack and AV landspeeder and some of these epic weapons I hear about, krayt perals? must I go on? ) There should be some cool themepark epic entertainer rewards for all 4 entertainer professions including image design (Add a new hairstyle to your archive you can now give one of those new unique hairstyles)
I think it would be awesome if the popularity point system was added to the game so you can be a famous musician literally...anyone here PvP lately there is soemthing called a combat rating now, How bout a populairty rating for us?
Also give us couples dancing for everyone couplesdancing1 or something and dancers can get access to more professsional couples dancing to look more stylish...this would be great for RP moments.
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