Entertainer Archive
Thread: Master Entertainer Box making it wanted by all Ent profs
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Devil_Tiger
Wed Mar 09, 2005 10:22 am
#27
I mastered entertainer because I'm not going to be able to master dance or music without giving up the ability to support myself (hunting and pistoleer). Sure, this leaves me without the Exotic 3 & 4 dances to make me a complete dancer and the Nala and virtuoso song to make me a complete musician. But what makes me stand out is playing the Mandoviol for performances.
Let me ask this, are you a lesser musician if you don't have the western song or a lesser dancer without the theatrical dance? No, you are not. How often do you walk in to a cantina and see several dancers doing the theatrical dance with musicians playing the western song? I've yet to see that on 2 servers in any cantina, let alone a single musician playing western or single dancer dancing theatrical.
Taking away the one thing makes Master Entertainer stand out totally negates any reason to get it. I sure as hell don't want it for just a special emote or some make-up kit. No one in their right mind would say "Iwant master entertainer to make make-up kits!". What is the point in crafting an insturment that invariably would have MMs screaming for it be played by Musicians only?
Take away the mandoviol and ceremonial and no one would ever bother mastering entertainer. Seriously, what would be the point in it?
Drygo
Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:35 am
#28
What's the point in mastering artisan, brawler, or marksman?
What if all this time Master Artisans were the only people who had the access to the color blue, which meant that the only complete tailors were those that also had Master Artisan?
Would you still be making the same argument? Would you say that the color blue is the only thing that makes Master Artisan unique? I don't want to make a part for a tailor, who in their right mind would want to do that? Would you be lobbying for them to keep the color blue in Master Artisan?
Drygo
Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:20 pm
#29
I think you are missing the point. There is a difference between the color blue and vehicles that many of you are totally not getting.
the color blue is like the mandovial. The vehicles are like a player crafted stage or an advertising skill.
The vehicles and advertising skill is a unique type of skill not associated with solely dancing or playing music.
The color blue and the mandovial are clearly things that a tailor or musician should be able to rightfully expect as part of their repertoire without having to master another profession for it.
The Mandovial and Ceremonial is a MUSICIAN skill. The color blue for clothing is a TAILOR skill. Vehicles are NOT a Tailor skill, and advertising or making stages is NOT a dancer/musician skill.
Get the difference?
Devil_Tiger
Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:50 pm
#30
No, I get the point....
It's better to nerf one profession to make another better.
I hate to turn this into an arguement but I'm going to have to. If you want to play the mando and ceremonial, get master entertainer. Crying about how it should only be this or only be that is not the way to do things. Maybe you shouldn't be able to do the basic dance at all since you aren't a master dancer. Nerfing master entertainer to make your profession better is completely wrong. Having the unique ability to play 1 insturment and 1 song is what most people are enticed by to master entertainer. I read it on another forum but it bears repeating "Cry me a river."If you want something that bad, earn it, don't cry "Nerf! Nerf! Someone can do something I can't!".
Sorry for making this an attack on you but wanting to nerf something because you can't have it unless you expend the effort to get it is not right.
P.S. one star me, call me a jerk, an a-hole, ignore me, tell me I'm not welcome in your cantina or shops, or whatever you see fit to do.
Message Edited by Devil_Tiger on 03-09-2005 03:21 PM
Drygo
Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:11 pm
#31
Think before you speak, please.
I'm done talking with you after this post because I don't respond to idiots who attack me personally.
But, just so we are clear, I'm going to point out some fallacies:
1. I AM Master Dancer
2. I AM Master Entertainer
I did the work, I got the stuff. But, that does NOT change the fact that I believe Mandovial and Ceremonial should be Musician skills and not NOT Master Entertainer skills. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with nerfing ANYTHING. I've presented logical arguments of why certain skills should go to certain professions, and you have NOT. All you can give me is this elitist, let's make things more difficult than they need to be viewpoint. Sorry, that don't fly.
And, lastly it is VERY obvious to me that you DIDN'T get my point, that you didn't understand my point, and that you've completely closed off your ability to CONSIDER my point because you didn't even RESPOND to what I said or offer a counter argument to my arguments.
Now, go away.
Message Edited by Drygo on 03-09-2005 02:13 PM
Devil_Tiger
Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:04 pm
#32
Actually, rather than fan any flames, I'm through here. I presented several valid points about skills in other base profession master boxes and they were ignored. What's the point anyway in this arguement anyway? I'm just another dumba** idiot that absoutely loves having a unique skill to stand out in a sea of other entertainers.
Message Edited by Devil_Tiger on 03-09-2005 05:08 PM
Drygo
Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:20 pm
#33
I lied. heh...sorry
Ok, I just want to say that I didn't ignore your other examples. I was trying to explain to you why I didn't think the analogy fit. And, nobody really explained to me why they think it did. And, nobody even responded to my analogy. I just want these questions answered. That's all.
1. Have you ever seen any other player of a non-entertainer elite profession who was upset because they thought the skills in the novice profession's Master box that their elite profession branched off from were necessary to feel complete in their elite profession? (sorry for the run on sentence here.)
2. Isaid (from Hobbytla)that if the color blue was in the Master Artisan box, and Tailors could no longer produce blue clothes, then that would be a much more analagous kind of thing to the mandovial being in the Master Entertainer box. And, I would bet that many Master Tailors would be pissed that they couldn't ever make any blue clothes unless they bit the bullet and spent an extra 32 skill points to do so. Anyone agree to this analagy? Disagree? Why?
So, my point is that Master Entertainer is the only Novice Profession mastery that has a very vital skill to an elite branch, and that elite branch is not allowed to use that vital skill unless they are willing to sacrifice an extra 18 skill points to do so. There are plenty of things I'm sure we could come up with that would make Master Entertainer fun and worth having, if we put our minds to it, that do not exclude the elite professions from having something that should rightfully be theirs.
Devil_Tiger
Wed Mar 09, 2005 10:50 pm
#34
I really do get the point and the analogy, and yes it is a valid point (I just got hot-headed). But a musician has to make a choice if he wants to spend the points or not to get the mandoviol. A DE needs things from the master artisan box, and while he can buy them, he may or may not be able to find the things he needs. Armorsmiths need supplies that come from the tailor trees, so for an armorsmith to be self sufficent, he would have to spend points to go up domestic arts to get novice tailor and then two more boxes (forgot which ones). While those rely more on interdependency, to truely be complete they would need those skills. BHs require getting master marksman but the rifles tree is useless to them. They get better attacks using pistols, carbines, and LLCs.
Moving the mandoviol from ME to MM basically nerfs any reason to get ME. 2 broken dances are not worth time, effort and skill points to get. Taking away something is not a solution though. Most of the things that were suggested to replace it are pretty worthless. You wouldn't need to craft a make-up kit since you already are a walking make-up kit. Any insturment you'd craft would be unusable by an ME since it would a musician's insturment.
And try making blue clothes as just a master artisan. Blue is a Talior's color and I would have loved to have been able to make blue clothes as a master artisan. The only "blue" clothing I could make looked like the neighbor's dog dragged it through the mud 100 times then buried it. It goes both ways and the devs aren't going to give anyone their cake and let them eat it too. Novices want what is in elite boxes and elites want what is in novices boxes.
One question: Why is a master entertainer not considered a musician? They can play music just like a master musician can. A novice entertainer playing the slitherhorn is still a musician.
Message Edited by Devil_Tiger on 03-09-2005 11:56 PM
Hobbytla
Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:44 am
#35
Devil_Tiger wrote:
I really do get the point and the analogy, and yes it is a valid point (I just got hot-headed). But a musician has to make a choice if he wants to spend the points or not to get the mandoviol. A DE needs things from the master artisan box, and while he can buy them, he may or may not be able to find the things he needs. Armorsmiths need supplies that come from the tailor trees, so for an armorsmith to be self sufficent, he would have to spend points to go up domestic arts to get novice tailor and then two more boxes (forgot which ones). While those rely more on interdependency, to truely be complete they would need those skills. BHs require getting master marksman but the rifles tree is useless to them. They get better attacks using pistols, carbines, and LLCs.
Moving the mandoviol from ME to MM basically nerfs any reason to get ME. 2 broken dances are not worth time, effort and skill points to get. Taking away something is not a solution though. Most of the things that were suggested to replace it are pretty worthless. You wouldn't need to craft a make-up kit since you already are a walking make-up kit. Any insturment you'd craft would be unusable by an ME since it would a musician's insturment.
And try making blue clothes as just a master artisan. Blue is a Talior's color and I would have loved to have been able to make blue clothes as a master artisan.The only "blue" clothing I could make looked like the neighbor's dog dragged it through the mud 100 times then buried it. It goes both ways and the devs aren't going to give anyone their cake and let them eat it too. Novices want what is in elite boxes and elites want what is in novices boxes.
One question: Why is a master entertainer not considered a musician? They can play music just like a master musician can. A novice entertainer playing the slitherhorn is still a musician.
Message Edited by Devil_Tiger on 03-09-2005 11:56 PM
1. As a tailor, I don't mind if you have the color blue. I don't mind if you have all the colors as a master artisan - because the items of clothing you can make are not comparable to the selection I have as a tailor. What I would resent as a tailor was if YOU could make blue, and I COULDN'T. But, OK, this example being over with....
2. Yes, a master entertainer IS a musician. I'm very slowly going up the entertainer trees with my character, and I do consider her being a dancer and musician even though she still hasn't reached Novice on either one. I don't think anyone has said that something should be taken away from master entertainers, just that the abilities should also be attainable in the elite profession. Simply because for most of us, the abilities IS the content. And a lot of people feel forced to spend a lot more skillpoints than is reasonable compared to other professions. My entertainer is her own character for this very reason. I tried to juggle the skillpoints on my first character, but it was just too frustrating. What some people are suggesting now, is that this skillpoint sink should also be applied to dancers and image designers... and some of us really really really don't want that.
Now let me repeat a question which I don't think was every answered.... (directed to several people who have argued for changes)
Why is it so important to some people that other people should have master entertainer?
Does it in some way diminish the entertainer class if no one wants Master Entertainer? I don't feel that way, since the three professions are unique and special each in their own right. Does it diminish Master Scout that few creature handlers are master scouts? (They also only need two of the trees.) Is master scout "saved from rejection" because rangers require it? The difference is that a ranger is a "superscout". There is no class which could be termed "superentertainer". I see no problem with giving more abilities from the elite professions to the master entertainer, so that would-be dabblers could be an allround entertainer with fewer skillpoints. But also give access to this to the elites who only want one of the entertainer professions on that specific character.
The extra 14 sp for musicians and dancers is enough of a skillpoint sink.
Drygo
Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:59 am
#36
As usual, hobby pretty much is saying exactly what I'm thinking.
Throughout this whole thing, I really just can't understand why some people are pushing so hard that everybody should get Master Entertainer. The skillpoint investment for output already sucks as is. And, I have, in the past seen a general sense among some portions of the entertainer population (dancers, musicians, and ID's), that somehow we are or should be making these huge sacrifices. And, their making us all out to be martyrs, and pushing for things to make our lives even harder than they are right now as entertainers.
I mean, really. Out of all the professions I've tried, and out of all the profession forums I've visited, all of the entertainer related boardsare the ONLY boards that I have *ever* seen where the members of its own class consistently push for things to be more difficult, for us to make more sacrifices than necessary, and to actually take away some of our own skills. I just don't get it.
I guess I'm not gonna change anyone's mind on this. All I can say is that, yeah the mando is where it is and it's unfortunately probably not gonna change. But, here is my plea to any devs who may be reading this, PLEASE don't put any more unique songs, dances, instruments, or ID'ing in the Master Entertainer box. PLEASE.
Message Edited by Drygo on 03-10-2005 04:07 AM
LeBob
Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:08 am
#37
As this discussion relates directly to something in the current Top Issues list, I would really like to see more people's opinions on this matter. Please do not flame.
Message Edited by LeBob on 03-13-2005 05:52 PM
Krinzor
Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:59 pm
#38
I personally believe that the Mandoviol and Ceremonial should be put in the gaps in Master Musician, the 2 dances shodul be put up in Dancer, and some unique content that benefits Entertainers, Musicians, Dancers, -and- IDers be placed in Master Entertainer. I'm speaking as a Master Musician, Master IDer and Master Entertainer with Dancing Knowledge 4, so I'd take Master Entertainer either way, but I don't think it's really all that logical for a Musician to have to take ME to get instruments or songs or a Dancer to have to take ME for dances. And IDs dont' have any reason at all for ME at the moment. Right now, ME is pretty much an extension of Musician and to some extent Dancer and the other professions are not set up this way. I don't much like combat, so I'm not familiar with those, but I have an artisan on one server and I think Entertainer should be set up more like that. There might be parts up in Master Artisan that elites need, and some unique content (vehicles), but are there unique and desirable droids in Artisan? Unique and desirable buildings? Unique and desirable clothing? Unique and desirable vendor options? Let's looks at Master Entertainer... Is ther a unique and desirable Intrument? Yes. Unique and desirable Song? Yes. Unique and desirable dances? Not really. Unique and desirable image design options? No. So even here ME is inconsistant. ME needs its own content, not pilfering content from its elite branches.
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