Entertainer Archive
Thread: So who do I trust?
Personally I am neutral to removing BF until I get more information.
I suggest more folks take this stance, rather than the alarmist position being proposed by this thread. Most certainly, I think it's upsetting to see someone who's been around these forums for quite awhile get to up-in-arms about this, making accusatory statements towards our Correspondents about them being a part of the PR machine, or whatever.
I refuse to participate more in this thread, if it involves unfairly criticizing and generalizing about the role that our VOLUNTEER Correspondents undertake each day for us, as a community.
If you have something to say about the professions, SAY IT. The Correspondents will report back to the Devs. If you think they're not, make sure you know they do.
If you think you can change the game because you don't like where it's headed, and 99% or even 100% of other players agree, understand that the Devs' vision very well may supercede everyone, and likely will if it's a change to benefit the health of the game.
I hardly think removing BF will be such a big deal, so long as we get something else to draw people to cantinas. But, I'm holding off on getting freaked out about it, until all the details are listed by Devs, and we can get our hands on the process.
This isn't some massive PR conspiracy, put down the tin foil hats. There are real people behind these forums, they have feelings, they are VOLUNTEERING to do this and inform the Devs of people's opinions.
If you have an opinion, state it. Don't take some stance like, "Which Corr is standing with me, this opinion is held by sooooo many Entertainers and patrons." You shouldn't need to have a Corr be your cheerleader. If people agree, they'll post as such.
Where is the Warryyr I used to know? The one who tiressly looked after our interests as a community in the face of unattendance, developer ignorance, and developer apathy?
RIGHT HERE in this thread, we have entertainers who are very skeptical at the direction this profession is going. Do you want me to find more from the ranger forums, the galaxy forums, and the other boards? And this is because they, like I, know that we will be replaced by automated alts in every sphere of daily play if these changes are enacted.
A BF healing game gave us a constant, stress free, intuitive, and rewarding platform by which to showcase our talents. And when I mean talents, I mean talents as performers, which is the only real thing that we have to compete with unattended alts, and the thing that makes these professions unique and special.
A buffing game basically makes us no different than the unattended alt next to us. The buff is granted so quickly, and without any real need for us to make the process more or less amusing, thatit disregardsthe ONLY thing we as live players have to compete with unattended layabouts: our ability to put on a show for an unspecified time.
And we have been ignored or brushed aside, and our corrs have basically resounded in a chorus telling us, "Nothing we can do will change their minds. BF is going away. Deal with it."
We who feel BF is a good system, and one of the few that actually worked in the old gamewill NOT shut up and "deal with it." We will continue to voice our concern, and we deserve a corr who will not "give up" simply because the developers do not want to hear it. I remember a time when they did not want to hear about unattendance either. I shudder to think what would become of us had that attitude prevailed upon us.
If you think I am insulting our corrs, I invite you to look again. As I said before Warryyr, I have talked to one of our corrs, who gave me a glimpse into the theory behind these changes. From what the corr told me, I am convinced the development staff is not looking at the situation correctly, if indeed they want to make the profession worthwhile as a played pursuit. I explained this to the corr, and my only hope is that they explain to the developers what I relayed.
Because when all this is said and done, I do not want us to be blamed for not trying hard enough to give the players of the past, and the players who have yet to become entertainers, that we did nothing to give them a game that was rewarding, worthwhile, and made their active attempt to be an entertainer valuable for things that have to do with entertainment, not simply mechanics distribution. And that is why I am trying, even pleading, with anyone who has the ability to communicate to the developers toplease tell them to understand what they are proposingbefore taking these professions down a road that will undermine us permanently.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 07-05-2005 03:44 PM
PoetDancer wrote:
Where is the Warryyr I used to know? The one who tiressly looked after our interests as a community in the face of unattendance, developer ignorance, and developer apathy?
I'm right here. I'm just not yelling "Fire!" yet.
Once I smell smoke, I'll be inclined to yell "Fire!" - but as yet, all I see is an overturned space heater, that could be smoldering.
I have NO problem with removing BF, so long as it's role in our professions is fulfilled by some other mechanic, some other platform to be rewarding and to let us showcase our talents.
The inherent problem with BF has always been that combatants inevitably were bitter at us because they had our playstyle "forced" on them. I've had a run-in with a few very nasty ones. Apparently saying "Hello" to another character is just too much for some folks. And there's no convincing them otherwise.
The *second* that you see an In Development, or In Testing thread where they talk about removing BF, and you don't see anything justifying it's removal, post there and I'll be right beside you. Hell, I posted just that much this morning when the "premature" patch notes surfaced. Then I retracted...until we see the "final" version.
I'm not going to scream about how the Corrs are ignoring the fight against BF removal, or how horrible it will be without it in the game, until I know what's coming our way. It most definitely ISan important game function right now, and I expect nothing less than equivalent or better compensatory things to use as a foundation and platform to entertain from.
And say what you like, I didn't find your post respectful at all to the Corrs. You contacted one, you stated your case, they told you something about the Devs' point of view, you responded. What more do you want at this stage? Hell, be glad you at least got that.
Don't start beating the war drum until you know what you're fighting against.
What will be replacing BF, hmm? Tell me that.
If you're just blindly championing the retention of BF without even knowing what may replace it, how do you know you're not killing something great that we'll never see?
Because when all this is said and done, I do not want us to be blamed for not trying hard enough to give the players of the past, and the players who have yet to become entertainers, that we did nothing to give them a game that was rewarding, worthwhile, and made their active attempt to be an entertainer valuable for things that have to do with entertainment, not simply mechanics distribution.
Why are you taking any kind of blame for what the Devs do?
BF is a fundamental game system that the Devs want removed. This is beyond you, me, the Corrs, player opinion, etc - it is a game mechanic, like the HAM system of old, that they want to remove. Entertainers DO deserve to have a game that is rewarding, worthwhile, and to feel valuable for things that have to do with entertainment. The very removal of something so pivotal to our place in the game surely has some kind of reward to us for losing this. And it's likely something that WILL take development time and WILL require feedback from us while it's readied. We haven't even seen a BIT of this yet, and you're ready to scrap who knows what fun could be in the works, just to keep Battle Fatigue?
The new system could make us WANTED, could be dependent upon us being Live and actually based on our entertainment value, could promise all sorts of new things to our game - and we want to fight to ditch that promise, to keep Battle Fatigue?
Does BF healing's process really care how entertaining we are? Hell, it can be 100% and very easily AFK'd right now, totally passive. Is that worth saving?
If, in the ultimate plan, the Devs think it's okay to leave us dancing and playing music for ourselves in the empty cantinas of the galaxies, then it's not us who've failed. It's the Devs. And nobody will tell me otherwise - because no matter how loud I yell or how much I type, they're the ones who this falls upon.
The opinions of the community and correspondents are very important to the Devs, but ultimately they do what they think is best for the game as a whole--they do have all the data we've collected for them, and a pile more that they collect from the game itself that we don't have access to. Don't get caught up in the idea that your opinion doesn't matter. Everyone's opinion matters when it comes to helping out our professions. But things won't always work out in favor of popular opinion.
Yeah what he said, lol.
Tralmek wrote:
It is our job as correspondents to represent the view of the community to the Devs. When everyone is for or against an idea, we make note of it. When that view is fractured, we let the Devs know that too. Esh, Scip, and I take our jobs very seriously and we work together to represent our communities the best we possibly can.
The opinions of the community and correspondents are very important to the Devs, but ultimately they do what they think is best for the game as a whole--they do have all the data we've collected for them, and a pile more that they collect from the game itself that we don't have access to. Don't get caught up in the idea that your opinion doesn't matter. Everyone's opinion matters when it comes to helping out our professions. But things won't always work out in favor of popular opinion.
Tralmek wrote:
It is our job as correspondents to represent the view of the community to the Devs. When everyone is for or against an idea, we make note of it. When that view is fractured, we let the Devs know that too. Esh, Scip, and I take our jobs very seriously and we work together to represent our communities the best we possibly can.
The opinions of the community and correspondents are very important to the Devs, but ultimately they do what they think is best for the game as a whole--they do have all the data we've collected for them, and a pile more that they collect from the game itself that we don't have access to. Don't get caught up in the idea that your opinion doesn't matter. Everyone's opinion matters when it comes to helping out our professions. But things won't always work out in favor of popular opinion.
PoetDancer wrote:
And we have been ignored or brushed aside, and our corrs have basically resounded in a chorus telling us, "Nothing we can do will change their minds. BF is going away. Deal with it."We who feel BF is a good system, and one of the few that actually worked in the old game will NOT shut up and "deal with it." We will continue to voice our concern, and we deserve a corr who will not "give up" simply because the developers do not want to hear it. I remember a time when they did not want to hear about unattendance either. I shudder to think what would become of us had that attitude prevailed upon us.
Yea, we might still have cantinas full of AFK'ers, but now we have.....cantinas full of AFK'ers - or empty cantinas. We've yelled at the top of our lungs forever that AFK must go...and nothing at ALL has been done to stop it. All we have are empty, unfulfilled promises from the devs that AFK is going away, meanwhile finding actual entertainers in a public cantina is cause for celebration.
The simple fact is, the devs will do whatever they want with the game no matter what we do, no matter how much we yell and scream that it's not a good idea. Correspondents can't do anything about, players can't do anything about it. BF will be removed and "eventually" we'll get something else.....supposedly.
Ask the Creature Handlers how that works. They were nerfed into near oblivion a very long time ago with the promise that it would all balance out with the Combat Balance/Revamp/Upgrade. Word I hear is they are in worse shape now than before the CU.
Ask Smugglers. They STILL can't smuggle, 2 years into the game. They just had the slicing system revamped....into a crappy system where you have to loot tools in order to do anything except basic slices.
Meanwhile, my entertainer sits unused for the past couple of months because I've gotten tired of being one of the few people in a sea of bots. I dislike having no control over who gets my services - which will now consist only of an inspiration buff. I dislike having to rely entirely on the generousity of others to earn credits as an entertainer. Oh sure, I could set a cover charge....which means I get zippo when there are half a dozen AFK'ers with no cover charge.
Basically I've all but given up using my entertainer for anything other than events like the Cantina Crawls...which is now roving, switching to different galaxies, so he doesn't get used at all anymore. Which is sad, as a number of the best times I've had in this game have come as an entertainer.
And none of that is the fault of any of the correspondents we've had, or the players. It's all the fault of the devs who, based on what I've seen in the past 2 years, have NO CLUE what to do with the entertainer professions. And I have serious doubts they have a clue what they are doing with the game in general. Seems like they just put a bunch of ideas on the board and throw a dart to see what to do next.
Message Edited by SpaceCrazy on 07-05-2005 08:47 PM
Echinacea wrote:
Tralmek wrote:
It is our job as correspondents to represent the view of the community to the Devs. When everyone is for or against an idea, we make note of it. When that view is fractured, we let the Devs know that too. Esh, Scip, and I take our jobs very seriously and we work together to represent our communities the best we possibly can.
The opinions of the community and correspondents are very important to the Devs, but ultimately they do what they think is best for the game as a whole--they do have all the data we've collected for them, and a pile more that they collect from the game itself that we don't have access to. Don't get caught up in the idea that your opinion doesn't matter. Everyone's opinion matters when it comes to helping out our professions. But things won't always work out in favor of popular opinion.
I call B.S. alert. Sorry, babe. I'd like to know where the pod is for Warryyr, too, or what he's been smokin' and why he ain't sharin', the stingy bum.
The people who cared about experimenting with a social playstyle that was INTERdependant on the other two main playstyles, combat and crafting, are gone. Those left are either being overridden or are just too tired, like many performers, to bother anymore.
My opinion doesn't matter. That's been made obvious time and again. The hope I had for my favorite profession, Musician, is gone. All that's left is me stubbornly holding onto a box full of ashes.
You know what, I don't care for these kind of comments being madeabout me. I really do not.
I don't know what you folks expect out of me.
But, when I see an issue to get upset about, I'll get upset. So far all I see are some premature patch notes that are now non-existant as far as we're concerned.
Echinacea wrote:
The people who cared about experimenting with a social playstyle that was INTERdependant on the other two main playstyles, combat and crafting, are gone. Those left are either being overridden or are just too tired, like many performers, to bother anymore.
I think the new buffs might offer us a lot of interdependency, I hope so personally.Have you looked at that thread where they are being talked about?
I know you care a lotabout these professions, Tarot. You were the firstperson I knew that had killer SEA enhancements back in the day. You did everything youcould to stay competitive with the bots and I really enjoyed buffing with you when we bumped into each other. 
I know this is a big change, but until we see what these new buffs are, it's just really too early to flip out. Go jump into the buff feedback thread, that's where our future is and I'm sure you've got a few things to say about it. 
/whisper... and please don't poke the poor Wookiee, he's trying so hard to befair here!