Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: These are not valid arguments
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Jenden
Thu Jan 22, 2004 6:12 am
#1
Ok, there are a lot of arguments on both sides right now that just aren't valid or don't make any sense, please stop using them, they don't help you.
"But DE practically requires master artisan"
no, Master artisan is an option. It makes life more convenient but do to the fact that the vast majority of the master artisan parts we need are the same 2 parts (and there are only 4 different parts total) it is insanely easy to walk in to any populated town and buy a schematic from a master artisan for 3k-5k. I've been a DE since july and I've never had master artisan, nor do I ever feel the need for it. Get out of your little box and interact with other players. Furthermore, the devs have already stated that they are either going to drop our dependency or raise everyone elses to fit into place, which would be fixing the problem, not throwing combat droids at it.
"A cert system just won't work"
While I haven't seen one that does work, doesn't stop you from trying. If someone can come up with a cert system that works I'm all for it.
"But DE takes so many skill points, we should get benefits"
Last I checked DE took the minimum number of skillpoints, with no profession taking less.... not sure how this is so many. If your arguing this because of my first point, see my first point.
Last I checked DE took the minimum number of skillpoints, with no profession taking less.... not sure how this is so many. If your arguing this because of my first point, see my first point.
"We're broken, we should get combat droids to make us better"
I dont' even know where to begin on where this one went wrong. If we're broken, fix the problem, don't just throw i combat droids to keep you happy for another month.
Logic
Logic has no part in this. I don't care what makes sense or what doesn't make sense, what matters is game balance. You keep game balance first, then find a logical reason why things work like they do.
I'll probably add more later, but I've got to go for now.
Sketh
Thu Jan 22, 2004 6:26 am
#2
Jenden wrote:
Ok, there are a lot of arguments on both sides right now that just aren't valid or don't make any sense, please stop using them, they don't help you.
"But DE practically requires master artisan"
no, Master artisan is an option. It makes life more convenient but do to the fact that the vast majority of the master artisan parts we need are the same 2 parts (and there are only 4 different parts total) it is insanely easy to walk in to any populated town and buy a schematic from a master artisan for 3k-5k. I've been a DE since july and I've never had master artisan, nor do I ever feel the need for it. Get out of your little box and interact with other players. Furthermore, the devs have already stated that they are either going to drop our dependency or raise everyone elses to fit into place, which would be fixing the problem, not throwing combat droids at it.
Right now, for all intents and purposes, master artisan is effectively part of DE.
Sure, you could get someone to make your schematics for you. I don't know about you, though, but I probably burn about 1200 EMM's and 800 GP's a week, if not more.
Could I get someone else to make them? Yes. However, that is one more time sink for me - trying to find someone to come out to my factories and drop the schematic in. Could an weaponsmith subcontract his barrels? Sure.
As many of us are merchants, we do interact quite a bit. I have two good suppliers for composite armor segments - I have no problem with that dependancy, and have no interest in getting the AS skills needed to make those. In general, I am a fairly social player - I spend a lot of time talking to customers, run a guild, and assist in the management of a player city. I could easily find others to make the schematics - but the thing is, no other class has that kind of dependancy, and the bottom line is that for all intents and purposes I cannot make anything without those master artisan parts. Dropping master artisan would put me completely and utterly at the mercy of others to be able to craft anything worth having.
As far as the devs changing the dependancies, well, when will that come? Next august?
It is the level of the dependancy that makes it so close to a necessity to have.
"A cert system just won't work"
While I haven't seen one that does work, doesn't stop you from trying. If someone can come up with a cert system that works I'm all for it.
In principal, I would love to see one. However, the bottom line is that IF we are going to have high level combat droids, the devs have stated flat out that it will require an expenditure of skill points and experience. Hence, you are going to have to fill some sort of bubbles with your skill points and earn experience to do so.
"But DE takes so many skill points, we should get benefits"
Last I checked DE took the minimum number of skillpoints, with no profession taking less.... not sure how this is so many. If your arguing this because of my first point, see my first point.
See also above.
"We're broken, we should get combat droids to make us better"
I dont' even know where to begin on where this one went wrong. If we're broken, fix the problem, don't just throw i combat droids to keep you happy for another month.
Have to agree with you here. Combat droids should NOT be the only focus of the DE work.
Logic
Logic has no part in this. I don't care what makes sense or what doesn't make sense, what matters is game balance. You keep game balance first, then find a logical reason why things work like they do.
I would point out, however, that for the purposes of immersion, there has to be some sense to the world. This is more true in a sci-fi world than a fantasy one, where you can explain things in terms of magic. Here, however, there must be an element of logic behind the game rules, otherwise it becomes completely unbeleivable.
Is this important for everyone? No. However, remember, they are trying to sell the Star Wars universe, not the futurama universe, so, IMO, they must maintain the logic and rules that applied to the Star Wars universe.
With this said, I do completely understand the need for ballance. This is what led to my proposal of a two tree mini-class for DH, with the abilities found in those bubbles grafted into the construction and experimentation trees of the DE, except for the mastery of DH, which would allow slightly better abilities for a DH than a DE.
I'll probably add more later, but I've got to go for now.
Leadhead101
Thu Jan 22, 2004 7:38 am
#3
Jenden wrote:
Ok, there are a lot of arguments on both sides right now that just aren't valid or don't make any sense, please stop using them, they don't help you.
"But DE practically requires master artisan"
no, Master artisan is an option. It makes life more convenient but do to the fact that the vast majority of the master artisan parts we need are the same 2 parts (and there are only 4 different parts total) it is insanely easy to walk in to any populated town and buy a schematic from a master artisan for 3k-5k. I've been a DE since july and I've never had master artisan, nor do I ever feel the need for it. Get out of your little box and interact with other players. Furthermore, the devs have already stated that they are either going to drop our dependency or raise everyone elses to fit into place, which would be fixing the problem, not throwing combat droids at it.
Yes, though it still "practically requires master artisan"! It doesnt totally require it so they are correct. But what are you getting at here? I could tell you that you shouldnt read magazines cause they kill you. Dont believe me? I just did a study and found that every one that read a magazine in 1812 is dead now.
"A cert system just won't work"
While I haven't seen one that does work, doesn't stop you from trying. If someone can come up with a cert system that works I'm all for it.
I agree
"But DE takes so many skill points, we should get benefits"
Last I checked DE took the minimum number of skillpoints, with no profession taking less.... not sure how this is so many. If your arguing this because of my first point, see my first point.
I havent heard this arguement, but I would also add that it is kinda a non sequiter.
"We're broken, we should get combat droids to make us better"
I dont' even know where to begin on where this one went wrong. If we're broken, fix the problem, don't just throw i combat droids to keep you happy for another month.
I would say that this like 99% of video games out there revolves around combat. Therefore a combat droid is going to be the biggest seller if we had one that was effective. So that being said, it is as good a place as any to add content to the profession or "make it better"
Logic
Logic has no part in this. I don't care what makes sense or what doesn't make sense, what matters is game balance. You keep game balance first, then find a logical reason why things work like they do.
Yes it matters. However the method in which "balance is being applied, if persued to its logicall conclusion will have people leaveing this game in droves. I have seen the exact same thing with Asherons Call. There is balance, and then there is "sameism" where yes it is balanced, but everyone is the same. Examples of this would include: 1. All faction pets are level 10, that is not so bad, but all combat faction pets do the same thing in combat. 2. The proposed DH profession to balance combat droid pets with other pets, It is the same thing as CH.
These are easy ways to balance a game, but the good games have a ton of differentiality between characters makeing them unique and likely to fit the personality of the player that is controlling that character. It is much more difficult to do, those games find balance, eventhough they dont fall into sameism.
This is what alot of people on this forum are suggesting with the logic and how it would fit into the game and make droid engineer a droid engineer...unique from the other professions.
I'll probably add more later, but I've got to go for now.
Jenden
Thu Jan 22, 2004 8:57 am
#5
Sketh wrote:
Right now, for all intents and purposes, master artisan is effectively part of DE.
Sure, you could get someone to make your schematics for you. I don't know about you, though, but I probably burn about 1200 EMM's and 800 GP's a week, if not more.
Could I get someone else to make them? Yes. However, that is one more time sink for me - trying to find someone to come out to my factories and drop the schematic in. Could an weaponsmith subcontract his barrels? Sure.
As many of us are merchants, we do interact quite a bit. I have two good suppliers for composite armor segments - I have no problem with that dependancy, and have no interest in getting the AS skills needed to make those. In general, I am a fairly social player - I spend a lot of time talking to customers, run a guild, and assist in the management of a player city. I could easily find others to make the schematics - but the thing is, no other class has that kind of dependancy, and the bottom line is that for all intents and purposes I cannot make anything without those master artisan parts. Dropping master artisan would put me completely and utterly at the mercy of others to be able to craft anything worth having.
As far as the devs changing the dependancies, well, when will that come? Next august?
It is the level of the dependancy that makes it so close to a necessity to have.
There's a difference between having a high level of dependency (which we do have) and requiring a profession (or practically requiring one). If droids needed a whole bunch of different and complicated parts (granted we need one, but only one, and we aren't the only profession that needs that one) I would aggree with you, but as it is there is no challenge in taking 5 minutes to get yourself some schematics. If you don't want to do it thats fine, but the option is there, and its not a pain in the ass like some people think it is.
In principal, I would love to see one. However, the bottom line is that IF we are going to have high level combat droids, the devs have stated flat out that it will require an expenditure of skill points and experience. Hence, you are going to have to fill some sort of bubbles with your skill points and earn experience to do so.
Thats the way I see it, but just being fair to both sides of the argument. Somehting is only impossible if you don't try.
I would point out, however, that for the purposes of immersion, there has to be some sense to the world. This is more true in a sci-fi world than a fantasy one, where you can explain things in terms of magic. Here, however, there must be an element of logic behind the game rules, otherwise it becomes completely unbeleivable.
Is this important for everyone? No. However, remember, they are trying to sell the Star Wars universe, not the futurama universe, so, IMO, they must maintain the logic and rules that applied to the Star Wars universe.
With this said, I do completely understand the need for ballance. This is what led to my proposal of a two tree mini-class for DH, with the abilities found in those bubbles grafted into the construction and experimentation trees of the DE, except for the mastery of DH, which would allow slightly better abilities for a DH than a DE.
Yes, there are some things you just can't do without making things unbelievable. But, you have to find something that first satisfies balance, then takes care of logic. You can't can't sacrifice balance in the name of logic, it doesn't work.
TheWoody
Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:01 am
#6
Whatever started this "DE practically requires Master Artisan" argument in the first place? I wasn't even aware that it was an argument till it was posted on here.
Sketh
Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:07 am
#7
TheWoody wrote:
Whatever started this "DE practically requires Master Artisan" argument in the first place? I wasn't even aware that it was an argument till it was posted on here.
I have seen it before. I haven't seen it quite as much in the current discussions - but it certainly came up in the previous round of discusson - when it was certs vs everyone uses droids vs DE's uses droids. This was several months ago - these discussions died out when we felt that we had said all we could, and were waiting for some dev response on several thousand posts...
Sketh
Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:17 am
#8
There's a difference between having a high level of dependency (which we do have) and requiring a profession (or practically requiring one). If droids needed a whole bunch of different and complicated parts (granted we need one, but only one, and we aren't the only profession that needs that one) I would aggree with you, but as it is there is no challenge in taking 5 minutes to get yourself some schematics. If you don't want to do it thats fine, but the option is there, and its not a pain in the ass like some people think it is.
I guess that we will have to agree to disagree on this one. It probably takes me a minimum of three hours a day to service my hoppers, tend my factories, and do my vendors.
In my case, I could easily get another MA in Riverveil (our player city) to make the schematic.
However, from a game point of view, when every single droid takes MA parts, this, IMO, pertty much necessitates having MA.
Thats the way I see it, but just being fair to both sides of the argument. Somehting is only impossible if you don't try.
The thing is - I beleive that we did try - and got a pretty emphatic NO to the cert approach.
Now, it seems that the devs are open to mini-trees and other ideas that would not be so costly in skill points and experience points.
See my cut and paste of another post at the bottom of this response for my proposed approach.
Yes, there are some things you just can't do without making things unbelievable. But, you have to find something that first satisfies balance, then takes care of logic. You can't can't sacrifice balance in the name of logic, it doesn't work.
As the other responder to your post pointed out, they have to beware of the "sameness" factor that wiped out AC2 in the name of ballance.
Personally, I don't think you will ever have true ballance. If any combat type has exactly an equal chance against another, well, then they must be identical.
What many people don't consider is that combat - even PvP, is really supposed to be a group thing. Skills should complement each other, not all be identical.
Now, I made the following post here:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=54760
In a post at:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=54419#M54419
Thunderheartstates the following:
Im reading and gathering all of the ideas put forth and presenting them to the devs. Keep in mind that a bunch of the proposals put forth the idea of a "mini profession" or adding a droid handling tree to the DE profession which is basically what's on the table.
The important thing to remember is that any proposal has to include the following design criteria if they are going to be considered by the devs:
- Any player can handle any pet or droid as long as its CL 10 or below.
- Any pet/droid above level 10 has to have a significant skill point/experience point expenditure.
- Reference CH's and the fact they have to spend points for an entire profession to get those benefits.
- Factions pets (which could be some droids) will be added at a later date.
- Reference CH's and the fact they have to spend points for an entire profession to get those benefits.
Keep proposing good ideas and Drashk and I will keep looking for things that the devs and community can agree on.
Now, lets take a look at what the DE's want:
- The ability to craft combat droids (yes, I too would like to see survey, music, etc droids, but that is another can o' worms)
- The ability to sell combat droids
- The ability to use our own combat droids
This appears to put us at loggerheads. A majority seem to dislike the idea of a Droid Handler (DH) class - but on the other hand, there is the problem that if the droid usage skills for combat droids is placed in the DE tree, this would cause DE to be the flavor of the month, and the crafting DE's would be forced out of business - a sentiment that I tend to agree with.
So, here is my proposed solution:
Create a "mini class" with two trees for Droid Handler. Each tree would have four bubbles, and there would be a mastery. The first tree would be droid control, the second tree would be droid tactics. The bubbles could have something like this for abilities
Droid Control:
- Advanced power usage (doubles battery time)
- Medium combat droid control (requires medium combat droid tactics to use the medium combat droid)
- Advanced Droid Calling (allows the droid to be called/stored w/o the normal wait period after combat)
- Heavy combat droid control (requires heavy combat droid tactics to use the heavy combat droid)
Droid Tactics:
- Advanced Droid Tactics (gives a +10% attack modifier for defense for the droid)
- Medium combat droid tactics (requires medium droid control to use the medium combat droid)
- Advanced Droid Attack Tactics (gives a +10% modifier for attack for the droid)
- Heavy combat droid tactics (requires heavy combat droid control to use the heavy combat droid)
Droid Handler Master - allows the use of two medium combat droids at once.
So, there is the DH class. Now for the kicker to make the DE's happy:
Add all the abilities of Droid Control into the existing droid constructon tree, and all the abilities in the DH Droid Tactics tree into the existing droid refinement tree.
In order to make the DH class slightly better than just going DE, do not allow the use of multiple combat droids, as attained at master DH to the DE tree.
Well, that's the best I could come up with the criteria that the devs have posted, and having read all the threads for the last 48 hours.
IsaacPalinander
Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:52 am
#9
I'm just wondering when I'll stumble upon one of your posts that is not pompous, condescending, and holier-than-thou. I'm still looking.
Jenden
Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:38 am
#10
IsaacPalinander wrote:
I'm just wondering when I'll stumble upon one of your posts that is not pompous, condescending, and holier-than-thou. I'm still looking.
You forgot cocky, arrogant, and presumptuous. But thats my writing style, you don't have to like it. I'll meet you point for point, and if I can't I'll admit that I'm wrong.
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