Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Sodan's DE Plan -- Read Me Thunderheart!
Page 1 of 1
Sodan-droiddreamer
Fri Oct 31, 2003 10:45 am
#1
Thunderheart,
I posted this in your new DE plan feedback post. I made some edits and I'm putting it out there for general discussion. I would like at least an acknowledgement that you read this, Thunderheart. I tried to be fair to the non-combatant DEs and compatant DEs, though I am biased. All DEs: can I get an amen? Discuss.
First of all, I agree completely with Sintrosi's commentary.
Second of all, I have the following comments on the draft DE Plan that came out last week.
Combat Droids
We need new combat droids, not new modules to put into existing droids. No one likes the idea of R2D2 or C3P0 wielding a blaster. At most, a very weak self-defense mechanism for R units would be ok; R2D2 had a little short range zapper, I believe. Perhaps it could be a melee-range warning shot.
We need new chassis beginning with the Droideka chassis for DEs. The animation is already there, we just need the schematic. The Droideka Adv will be out signature droid, the pride of the profession and take us out of the laughing stock. I propose the following:
--Droideka Advanced for Master DEs only -- This should be our best droid. Personal Shield Generators, droid armor, two module slots, good damage, good HAM. I suggest that these droid be as good as the best CH pet, but I will settle for a bit less. But it MUST be far better than the probot. Optional shield generators increase profession interdependence which is cool. Optional Light Power Core for unlimited power would be awesome.
--Droideka Basic -- For Droid Designers (requires blueprints 4) and for certain combat classes with the right certs, no shield generators, no module slots, diminished HAM and damage
--Un-nerfed probots -- for everyone else, boost HAM or at least dmg to 100-150 or 200-250
--New combat droids -- For everyone. how about those Battle Droids from episode 1? New chassis for everyone else will stimulate interest in the profession and sales. What about swappable weapons based on the owner's weapon certifications (or some subset thereof)?
Check these possible combat droids out:
http://www.starwars.com/databank/droid/battledroid/
http://www.starwars.com/databank/droid/dwarfspiderdroid/index.html
http://www.starwars.com/databank/droid/ig88/index.html
http://www.starwars.com/databank/droid/superbattledroid/index.html
To be fair, there is a minority of DEs who dislike intro'ing combat to the DE profession. They either don't like combat, or they don't want Gunner DEs clouding the profession (like the dabbler CHs) and driving down prices. If you bow to them, then the rest of us DEs interested in better combat droids won't get squat. On the other hand, if you give us the droids above, non-combatant DEs are free to roleplay their characters all the way to crafting nirvana and combatant DEs get to rock the house; this way everyone gets what they want.
Again new chassis, not R2D2 with a blaster, is what we want. And we want to be able to sell some new droids to people.
Also, everyone -- not just DEs -- needs a simple way (as in no need for a DE or an extra droid) to repair droid damage, like pet damage is healed. Expendable items should have up to as many charges as goodstimpacksdepending on skill of creator/resources used.Without that ability, no one will ever replace pets with droids and the zoo will go on. Vitality should be repaired with special droids or DEs usingexpendable service packs/parts.
Number of Droids for DEs
Two is the minimum -- one combat and one "service droid". But I suggest letting us do as many as the CHs. Why not? Three of those Battle Droids from Ep. 1 would be awesome! Two is the minimum, though, so we can repair wounds/damage with LE Repair Droids and recharge with Power Droids.
Don't sweat multi-droid controls. Will do it with macros. Just give us easier ways to program droids and rename them with numbers like buildings.
Service Droids
These need to be improved. Some ideas:
Medical Droids
I love the ideas for medical droids in the plan so long as they don't replace healer professions. A surgical droid should slowly heal all those around it, like the med center does, albeit more slowly. In addition, when loaded up with Medic/Doctor-created stimpacks, they should apply those on command or when a player is incapped. Surgical droid usage of stimpacks should give usage exp to the doc-creator of the stimpack! We need to know their stimpack count too so we know when to refill. Perhaps they should require some doctor-made hardware as well to increase profession interdependence which is a positive thing.
Repair Droids
These should repair droid damage and wounds. They should be useable on more than just droids -- to repair item, buildings and armor. Perhaps in player cities they can lower maintenance costs. Repair droids should use expendable droid "stimpacks" to repair and give bonuses when others use these items. They should give bonuses to all crafters when crafting.
Power Droids
These should NEVER require batteries and use a Light Power Core instead of a Power Core Unit. Attaching them to harvesters is great, but what happens when you redeed? They should stay attached to the deed. Do they count against you limit of droids when attached? They do not. A limit of one power droid for all ten lots or quickly degrading power droids would be pointless, especially with power going for 1/unit. Power droid should play a role in player cities. Better yet, let power droids add three days of power to harvesters at a time. Force us to replace power core occasionally.
R Units and Protocols
These should be able to deliver items on our behalf by taking the shuttle/starport. R2D2 and C3P0 went a LONG WAY to deliver Princess Leah's message -- "help me obi-won". Load them up with the WPs, the goods and credits for the shuttle and send them off! Our droids should go on simple runs for us. Protocols should play a role in cities. I like being able to program them to bark. What about using protocols to complete quests that require translation of languages that players can't learn -- like Jawa and Ewok. Or allow us to trade with Jawa droid dealers or with Ewoks etc. Player Politicians should be required to use/own protocols or given bonuses for using them. Architects should be required to use protocols as components of shuttle/star ports and other Player City buildings. Protocols should act as butlers in people houses. Serving drinks, cleaning, greeting, lowering maintenance cost. Perhaps protocols might be better diplomats? Allow crafters to bribe their way past the highwaymen on the way to harvesters. Certainly the Trade Federation Avengers would be into that.
Binary Load Lifter
These should be able to carry between 100-150 items AT LEAST. They should play a role in player cities (reduce taxes?). BLLs should make harvester runs for us, including adding power that we load into the BLL. Perhaps they can be escorted by our combat droids. BLLs need a function fast! They need to lift loads in a hurry! BLLs should reduce harvester and city maintenance/taxes. Architects should get bonuses for using them. Maybe they can be used to move houses without redeeding them? Or lower redeeding costs?
Modules and Additional Functions
"We think all droids when they are used should take power and wound damage" -- I'm sorry but this is a VERY bad idea. If you want to add balance, do it another way. Droids should not get injured by their basic operation! Expendable items/charges for surgical/repair droids is fine. But when did R2D2 kick over from slicing the deathstar? Never! There are other ways to balance this. Speaking of, the whole droid batteries thing sucks -- pun intended.
I'm in favor of a module or droid type for every class. Such as:
--Med modules for docs (bonuses you described in plan)
--repair/crafting modules for artisans/crafters (bonuses for crafting, not just function as a station)
--DNA sampling and DNA storage mods for BEs
--Slicing for slicers mod (gives bonuses to slicing; perhaps required to take over anoenemy base)
--Accompaniment droids/modules for entertainers -- drum machine for musicians, lights for dancers, etc.
--Waiter/buttlers/cooler for chefs and their houses
--Hairstyling droids for image designers?
You get the point: every class should have a droid or droid module that gives bonuses or augments them.
Certifications for Droids
I like the idea of letting other classes pull out extra droids per profession -- surgicals for doctors, repair droids for crafters, and combat droids for elite combat types. If you use a cert system, you don't have to worry about balance since the noobs don't get the powerful droids. Let combat types load their certed weapons onto droids with a slower attack speed. Perhaps a subset of their certed weapons, if not their "best" weapon. This way, its: same droid, improved dmg as character lvls up.
Final Thoughts
The most important thing in my opinion, subjectively, is the addition of droidekas at least for Master DEs. It should be the crown of our profession, but if you want us to work for it (quests, reverse engineer Droideka parts from lok, etc.), fine,we will. We have dealt with being crappy DEs for months! Scraped by with no real rewards to show for it -- give us this gift as recompense! CHs get lvl 70 pets!!! And they can call three at a time! Let us walk the starports in pride and safety, with a droideka (or two) at our side! Thunderheart, hear me roar: DROIDEKA, DROIDEKA, DROIDEKA!!!!
The next most important thing is new/improved (NOT converted) combat droids for Non-DEs so we can sell them. We need a way to heal these outside of camps, without the need for a DE or a repair droid. Expandable repair kits will work.
Improved services droids are also important.
I posted this in your new DE plan feedback post. I made some edits and I'm putting it out there for general discussion. I would like at least an acknowledgement that you read this, Thunderheart. I tried to be fair to the non-combatant DEs and compatant DEs, though I am biased. All DEs: can I get an amen? Discuss.
First of all, I agree completely with Sintrosi's commentary.
Second of all, I have the following comments on the draft DE Plan that came out last week.
Combat Droids
We need new combat droids, not new modules to put into existing droids. No one likes the idea of R2D2 or C3P0 wielding a blaster. At most, a very weak self-defense mechanism for R units would be ok; R2D2 had a little short range zapper, I believe. Perhaps it could be a melee-range warning shot.
We need new chassis beginning with the Droideka chassis for DEs. The animation is already there, we just need the schematic. The Droideka Adv will be out signature droid, the pride of the profession and take us out of the laughing stock. I propose the following:
--Droideka Advanced for Master DEs only -- This should be our best droid. Personal Shield Generators, droid armor, two module slots, good damage, good HAM. I suggest that these droid be as good as the best CH pet, but I will settle for a bit less. But it MUST be far better than the probot. Optional shield generators increase profession interdependence which is cool. Optional Light Power Core for unlimited power would be awesome.
--Droideka Basic -- For Droid Designers (requires blueprints 4) and for certain combat classes with the right certs, no shield generators, no module slots, diminished HAM and damage
--Un-nerfed probots -- for everyone else, boost HAM or at least dmg to 100-150 or 200-250
--New combat droids -- For everyone. how about those Battle Droids from episode 1? New chassis for everyone else will stimulate interest in the profession and sales. What about swappable weapons based on the owner's weapon certifications (or some subset thereof)?
Check these possible combat droids out:
http://www.starwars.com/databank/droid/battledroid/
http://www.starwars.com/databank/droid/dwarfspiderdroid/index.html
http://www.starwars.com/databank/droid/ig88/index.html
http://www.starwars.com/databank/droid/superbattledroid/index.html
To be fair, there is a minority of DEs who dislike intro'ing combat to the DE profession. They either don't like combat, or they don't want Gunner DEs clouding the profession (like the dabbler CHs) and driving down prices. If you bow to them, then the rest of us DEs interested in better combat droids won't get squat. On the other hand, if you give us the droids above, non-combatant DEs are free to roleplay their characters all the way to crafting nirvana and combatant DEs get to rock the house; this way everyone gets what they want.
Again new chassis, not R2D2 with a blaster, is what we want. And we want to be able to sell some new droids to people.
Also, everyone -- not just DEs -- needs a simple way (as in no need for a DE or an extra droid) to repair droid damage, like pet damage is healed. Expendable items should have up to as many charges as goodstimpacksdepending on skill of creator/resources used.Without that ability, no one will ever replace pets with droids and the zoo will go on. Vitality should be repaired with special droids or DEs usingexpendable service packs/parts.
Number of Droids for DEs
Two is the minimum -- one combat and one "service droid". But I suggest letting us do as many as the CHs. Why not? Three of those Battle Droids from Ep. 1 would be awesome! Two is the minimum, though, so we can repair wounds/damage with LE Repair Droids and recharge with Power Droids.
Don't sweat multi-droid controls. Will do it with macros. Just give us easier ways to program droids and rename them with numbers like buildings.
Service Droids
These need to be improved. Some ideas:
Medical Droids
I love the ideas for medical droids in the plan so long as they don't replace healer professions. A surgical droid should slowly heal all those around it, like the med center does, albeit more slowly. In addition, when loaded up with Medic/Doctor-created stimpacks, they should apply those on command or when a player is incapped. Surgical droid usage of stimpacks should give usage exp to the doc-creator of the stimpack! We need to know their stimpack count too so we know when to refill. Perhaps they should require some doctor-made hardware as well to increase profession interdependence which is a positive thing.
Repair Droids
These should repair droid damage and wounds. They should be useable on more than just droids -- to repair item, buildings and armor. Perhaps in player cities they can lower maintenance costs. Repair droids should use expendable droid "stimpacks" to repair and give bonuses when others use these items. They should give bonuses to all crafters when crafting.
Power Droids
These should NEVER require batteries and use a Light Power Core instead of a Power Core Unit. Attaching them to harvesters is great, but what happens when you redeed? They should stay attached to the deed. Do they count against you limit of droids when attached? They do not. A limit of one power droid for all ten lots or quickly degrading power droids would be pointless, especially with power going for 1/unit. Power droid should play a role in player cities. Better yet, let power droids add three days of power to harvesters at a time. Force us to replace power core occasionally.
R Units and Protocols
These should be able to deliver items on our behalf by taking the shuttle/starport. R2D2 and C3P0 went a LONG WAY to deliver Princess Leah's message -- "help me obi-won". Load them up with the WPs, the goods and credits for the shuttle and send them off! Our droids should go on simple runs for us. Protocols should play a role in cities. I like being able to program them to bark. What about using protocols to complete quests that require translation of languages that players can't learn -- like Jawa and Ewok. Or allow us to trade with Jawa droid dealers or with Ewoks etc. Player Politicians should be required to use/own protocols or given bonuses for using them. Architects should be required to use protocols as components of shuttle/star ports and other Player City buildings. Protocols should act as butlers in people houses. Serving drinks, cleaning, greeting, lowering maintenance cost. Perhaps protocols might be better diplomats? Allow crafters to bribe their way past the highwaymen on the way to harvesters. Certainly the Trade Federation Avengers would be into that.
Binary Load Lifter
These should be able to carry between 100-150 items AT LEAST. They should play a role in player cities (reduce taxes?). BLLs should make harvester runs for us, including adding power that we load into the BLL. Perhaps they can be escorted by our combat droids. BLLs need a function fast! They need to lift loads in a hurry! BLLs should reduce harvester and city maintenance/taxes. Architects should get bonuses for using them. Maybe they can be used to move houses without redeeding them? Or lower redeeding costs?
Modules and Additional Functions
"We think all droids when they are used should take power and wound damage" -- I'm sorry but this is a VERY bad idea. If you want to add balance, do it another way. Droids should not get injured by their basic operation! Expendable items/charges for surgical/repair droids is fine. But when did R2D2 kick over from slicing the deathstar? Never! There are other ways to balance this. Speaking of, the whole droid batteries thing sucks -- pun intended.
I'm in favor of a module or droid type for every class. Such as:
--Med modules for docs (bonuses you described in plan)
--repair/crafting modules for artisans/crafters (bonuses for crafting, not just function as a station)
--DNA sampling and DNA storage mods for BEs
--Slicing for slicers mod (gives bonuses to slicing; perhaps required to take over anoenemy base)
--Accompaniment droids/modules for entertainers -- drum machine for musicians, lights for dancers, etc.
--Waiter/buttlers/cooler for chefs and their houses
--Hairstyling droids for image designers?
You get the point: every class should have a droid or droid module that gives bonuses or augments them.
Certifications for Droids
I like the idea of letting other classes pull out extra droids per profession -- surgicals for doctors, repair droids for crafters, and combat droids for elite combat types. If you use a cert system, you don't have to worry about balance since the noobs don't get the powerful droids. Let combat types load their certed weapons onto droids with a slower attack speed. Perhaps a subset of their certed weapons, if not their "best" weapon. This way, its: same droid, improved dmg as character lvls up.
Final Thoughts
The most important thing in my opinion, subjectively, is the addition of droidekas at least for Master DEs. It should be the crown of our profession, but if you want us to work for it (quests, reverse engineer Droideka parts from lok, etc.), fine,we will. We have dealt with being crappy DEs for months! Scraped by with no real rewards to show for it -- give us this gift as recompense! CHs get lvl 70 pets!!! And they can call three at a time! Let us walk the starports in pride and safety, with a droideka (or two) at our side! Thunderheart, hear me roar: DROIDEKA, DROIDEKA, DROIDEKA!!!!
The next most important thing is new/improved (NOT converted) combat droids for Non-DEs so we can sell them. We need a way to heal these outside of camps, without the need for a DE or a repair droid. Expandable repair kits will work.
Improved services droids are also important.
Sodan-droiddreamer
Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:50 am
#3
Go ahead, one-star me. But at least post why you think it deserves such a rating! Boo!!!
Snikrop
Fri Oct 31, 2003 12:50 pm
#5
Hello,
You've suggested many wonderful things that many DE's would like to see. I take exception to the following statement.
Who did you use to generate your poll numbers to get the stat that a minority of DE's don't want combat droids? Zogby must have a special for random mmo-player surveys this week! Honestly, I like the idea of having a droid that can protect me better than the Probot, but I also think that in the _big_ picture what you posted above is a near duplication of the Creature Handler class using Droids. I realize that may look more "star warsy" but game play WILL NOT be helped if the only fix that comes along is to give Droid Engineers their version of the Graul. Every Master Level profession doesn't need the ability to fight in solo combat. It's not that I don't like combat or I'm so in love with crafting. It's not that I love being a wuss either as it seems anyone who doesn't want combat droids is, at least according to the above. Please don't try to speak for those you've decided to trivialize and can't seem to understand.
Reading your posts, I begin to get the feeling that you like hunting and killing more than you like building droids. You've suggested many cogent points on what else droids could be doing besides combat so I don't want to through the Advanced Droid Frame out with the Oil Bath. If the droid crafting process wasn't about as interesting as sorting icons on my desktop, I'd bet the profession would see a whole lot less screams for combat droids. Is the crafting process going to change? No. So we need droids that are more functional, and more interesting to use. Combat droids you scream, would be the MOST useful. I can assure you that I'm an in-game meat shield and nothing more so a droid that could take the occasional Mottled Wrix off my back would be good. I also am a member of a guild that has _dozens_ of combat classes, so when I want to go shoot at things I bring up the list of online players and sure enough there's someone hacking and slashing their way towards some new box in Adv. Ranged Disemboweling III or something and I say can you help me out. Barring that I may be in a pinch trying to place a harvester so I do a /who and say "Um, I'm trying to place a harvester could you help me clear the area?" 99% of the time, I get a pleasant group and I never once needed a combat droid. Can I go solo hunting, no. Can I throw on my mask scent and run nearly AFK through the whole **edit** world? Pretty much all time in fact! I think the overall trend in SWG is interdependency between players (i.e. medics can't do all the healing, yet) and keeping Droid Handlers from becoming the "purpose of the DE tree" increases dependency on other people and other professions. I can't imagine why SOE would throw that out the window, and many of the combat droid advances being discussed would do that.
Go read this thread for why having two Droideka's and a couple of clone wars droids doesn't make sense in the timeline:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=34317
Then tell me that you don't care about the timeline and this game is already wishy-washy about the backstory with Zabraks running about, everyone's carrying weapons in the open, and the rebels control every thing. OH wait, that would be putting words in your mouth. I apologize. I'm not trying to start a war with you, I'm just questioning the tone of your statement that a minority of DE's don't want combat droids. I guess I'm in that group regardless of size, and hopefully we'll get gusto to come to boards and represent those who didn't come to SWG to come on another kill this thing treadmill.
You've suggested many wonderful things that many DE's would like to see. I take exception to the following statement.
To be fair, there is a minority of DEs who dislike intro'ing combat to the DE profession. They either don't like combat, or they don't want Gunner DEs clouding the profession (like the dabbler CHs) and driving down prices. If you bow to them, then the rest of us DEs interested in better combat droids won't get squat. On the other hand, if you give us the droids above, non-combatant DEs are free to roleplay their characters all the way to crafting nirvana and combatant DEs get to rock the house; this way everyone gets what they want.
Who did you use to generate your poll numbers to get the stat that a minority of DE's don't want combat droids? Zogby must have a special for random mmo-player surveys this week! Honestly, I like the idea of having a droid that can protect me better than the Probot, but I also think that in the _big_ picture what you posted above is a near duplication of the Creature Handler class using Droids. I realize that may look more "star warsy" but game play WILL NOT be helped if the only fix that comes along is to give Droid Engineers their version of the Graul. Every Master Level profession doesn't need the ability to fight in solo combat. It's not that I don't like combat or I'm so in love with crafting. It's not that I love being a wuss either as it seems anyone who doesn't want combat droids is, at least according to the above. Please don't try to speak for those you've decided to trivialize and can't seem to understand.
Reading your posts, I begin to get the feeling that you like hunting and killing more than you like building droids. You've suggested many cogent points on what else droids could be doing besides combat so I don't want to through the Advanced Droid Frame out with the Oil Bath. If the droid crafting process wasn't about as interesting as sorting icons on my desktop, I'd bet the profession would see a whole lot less screams for combat droids. Is the crafting process going to change? No. So we need droids that are more functional, and more interesting to use. Combat droids you scream, would be the MOST useful. I can assure you that I'm an in-game meat shield and nothing more so a droid that could take the occasional Mottled Wrix off my back would be good. I also am a member of a guild that has _dozens_ of combat classes, so when I want to go shoot at things I bring up the list of online players and sure enough there's someone hacking and slashing their way towards some new box in Adv. Ranged Disemboweling III or something and I say can you help me out. Barring that I may be in a pinch trying to place a harvester so I do a /who and say "Um, I'm trying to place a harvester could you help me clear the area?" 99% of the time, I get a pleasant group and I never once needed a combat droid. Can I go solo hunting, no. Can I throw on my mask scent and run nearly AFK through the whole **edit** world? Pretty much all time in fact! I think the overall trend in SWG is interdependency between players (i.e. medics can't do all the healing, yet) and keeping Droid Handlers from becoming the "purpose of the DE tree" increases dependency on other people and other professions. I can't imagine why SOE would throw that out the window, and many of the combat droid advances being discussed would do that.
Go read this thread for why having two Droideka's and a couple of clone wars droids doesn't make sense in the timeline:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=34317
Then tell me that you don't care about the timeline and this game is already wishy-washy about the backstory with Zabraks running about, everyone's carrying weapons in the open, and the rebels control every thing. OH wait, that would be putting words in your mouth. I apologize. I'm not trying to start a war with you, I'm just questioning the tone of your statement that a minority of DE's don't want combat droids. I guess I'm in that group regardless of size, and hopefully we'll get gusto to come to boards and represent those who didn't come to SWG to come on another kill this thing treadmill.
ccpeters
Sat Nov 01, 2003 1:50 am
#6
I've recently made Master Artisan and am preparing to enter the DE profession, bugs and all. I love the outline you've made here and can't find anything I really have a problem with. It seems very well thought out and put together. I especially like you idea of having the DE-only droid be at the Master level to prevent the watering down of the profession with dabblers. That sounds like a good compromise solution to me.
I hope the devs and TH pay some attention to you proposal and many of the others that the DE's have put forward. The plan put out by them a few days ago was troubling at best and rather insidious at worst. They have been catching alot of flak for those announcements since then and I hope they acknowledge it all. I hope to see the rest of the DE community work together on plans like yours and eventually put together something brilliant that most everyone will like (since you can't please everyone).
I hope the devs and TH pay some attention to you proposal and many of the others that the DE's have put forward. The plan put out by them a few days ago was troubling at best and rather insidious at worst. They have been catching alot of flak for those announcements since then and I hope they acknowledge it all. I hope to see the rest of the DE community work together on plans like yours and eventually put together something brilliant that most everyone will like (since you can't please everyone).
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