Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Shields Up! Complete DH profession proposal
Page 1 of 4
BlueMorgoth
Tue Jan 20, 2004 6:00 pm
#1
There are a number of posts here. This is very long. Please don't reply until I've signalled the last post.
/equipFlameSuit3
This series of posts is in answer to the Challenge:
"What else is there for a DH to do except spam "a" all the time?"
Since I am one of the few that actually think that the DH profession
is actually a good thing, I should put up something for you to all
**edit** and flame me to high-heaven for
At least it will put out
something concrete to debate over from the other side of the fence.
In addition, it is to also introduce more of the backround, with
reasoning for how a DH profession may work based on background
from the various EU sources.
In putting this proposal together, I have taken influence from a
lot of different skill trees and tried to come up with an effective
combo that is
a) Not overpowering in a relative terms, ie dabbling is hard
b) Should be fun and challenging to play,
c) is consistent with existing design philosophies in SWG.
Point (c) is an extremely important point and should not be
underestimated. For those arguing that "you are not using your
imagination about what a DE could be" this is the direct
counter-point. Imagination is all good, but the developers have
a specific design philosophy that they have put into the game.
That philosophy guides what they have previously done, and because
of that, the way the code is implemented. It therefore effects all
things, both past, present and future ways that the game can be
expanded. Adding additional capabilities that do not fit within
the existing philosophy can be extremely difficult to do. What
may seem like a simple assumption on your part may mean throwing out
hundreds of thousands of lines of code and starting again (which we
all know what that means - bugs). Let me state this up front now:
If you want to make a change to the game, you have two options.
Either you work within the existing design philosophy and get a lot
of fast changes, but they seem rather cookie-cutter, or you get a
few big expansive changes and they take months to implement (and by
that I am talking about 6-12 month timespans, not 1 or 2).
Now that that is out of the way, let's get into the meat and potatoes.
I am going to assume you already know the existing philosophies. We've
debated them ad-nauseum here. No need to re-hash them.
My assumption from here on out is that we are going to follow those existing
philosophy and thus it requires a DH profession to be in existance at some
point in time because of the symmetry in other classes is currently missing
in the droid area. Yes, DE-DH is very much the same as BE-CH. In both
cases, the Engineer makes stuff that a lot of other professions use. They
also make a very specific set of niche-market products that only one other
specific profession can use. For BEs, that is the BE rancors, kimos etc.
For DEs, this would be the equivalent high-level combat droids (EG
LOM Demolition droid, Droideka etc).
A quick personal background so you know why I hold these views and can
speak with a lot of background knowledge. I spent 8 years in the Army.
Initially infantry/intelligence, the last 3 years in Special Forces. Since
then I have mainly worked in computer systems design and implementation.
Specifically in command and control systems and visualisation/simulation.
In fact, that is what I still get paid to do. My main claim to fame was
that I was the lead architect for the command and control system that was
implemented behind the Sydney Olympics for dealing with terrrorist situations.
In addition, I play a lot of RPGs outside of Galaxies and have an intimate
understanding of the need for balance. Thus, I know things from both sides
of the table - both reality and fantasy worlds. Here, I am trying to blend
the two together for all our benefit.
More to follow....
/equipFlameSuit3
This series of posts is in answer to the Challenge:
"What else is there for a DH to do except spam "a" all the time?"
Since I am one of the few that actually think that the DH profession
is actually a good thing, I should put up something for you to all
**edit** and flame me to high-heaven for
At least it will put outsomething concrete to debate over from the other side of the fence.
In addition, it is to also introduce more of the backround, with
reasoning for how a DH profession may work based on background
from the various EU sources.
In putting this proposal together, I have taken influence from a
lot of different skill trees and tried to come up with an effective
combo that is
a) Not overpowering in a relative terms, ie dabbling is hard
b) Should be fun and challenging to play,
c) is consistent with existing design philosophies in SWG.
Point (c) is an extremely important point and should not be
underestimated. For those arguing that "you are not using your
imagination about what a DE could be" this is the direct
counter-point. Imagination is all good, but the developers have
a specific design philosophy that they have put into the game.
That philosophy guides what they have previously done, and because
of that, the way the code is implemented. It therefore effects all
things, both past, present and future ways that the game can be
expanded. Adding additional capabilities that do not fit within
the existing philosophy can be extremely difficult to do. What
may seem like a simple assumption on your part may mean throwing out
hundreds of thousands of lines of code and starting again (which we
all know what that means - bugs). Let me state this up front now:
If you want to make a change to the game, you have two options.
Either you work within the existing design philosophy and get a lot
of fast changes, but they seem rather cookie-cutter, or you get a
few big expansive changes and they take months to implement (and by
that I am talking about 6-12 month timespans, not 1 or 2).
Now that that is out of the way, let's get into the meat and potatoes.
I am going to assume you already know the existing philosophies. We've
debated them ad-nauseum here. No need to re-hash them.
My assumption from here on out is that we are going to follow those existing
philosophy and thus it requires a DH profession to be in existance at some
point in time because of the symmetry in other classes is currently missing
in the droid area. Yes, DE-DH is very much the same as BE-CH. In both
cases, the Engineer makes stuff that a lot of other professions use. They
also make a very specific set of niche-market products that only one other
specific profession can use. For BEs, that is the BE rancors, kimos etc.
For DEs, this would be the equivalent high-level combat droids (EG
LOM Demolition droid, Droideka etc).
A quick personal background so you know why I hold these views and can
speak with a lot of background knowledge. I spent 8 years in the Army.
Initially infantry/intelligence, the last 3 years in Special Forces. Since
then I have mainly worked in computer systems design and implementation.
Specifically in command and control systems and visualisation/simulation.
In fact, that is what I still get paid to do. My main claim to fame was
that I was the lead architect for the command and control system that was
implemented behind the Sydney Olympics for dealing with terrrorist situations.
In addition, I play a lot of RPGs outside of Galaxies and have an intimate
understanding of the need for balance. Thus, I know things from both sides
of the table - both reality and fantasy worlds. Here, I am trying to blend
the two together for all our benefit.
More to follow....
BlueMorgoth
Tue Jan 20, 2004 6:01 pm
#2
What does a Droid Handler do?
Simple - he commands droids to do stuff and attempts to circumvent other
droids that have "gone wild". He either see's himself as a master of logic
able to command any droid at will to do anything, or as a cleaner - removing
unwanted and rogue droids from the galaxy. A person playing this profession
is dedicated to the task of making the best of droids to the exclusion of all
others.
The core skills of a handler is the ability to control combat droids and
the ability to capture and reprogram droids (both combat and non-combat types)
Game Balance Issues:
While anyone can command simple droids to do stuff, having a really effective
droid takes a lot of work and intimate understanding. In addition, we want to
avoid the DH/CH combo. While controlling simple-minded creatures is relatively
easy to issue, heal, sit, beg, rollover commands, one must be constantly paying
attention to a droid to make sure that logical brain does become too logical in
the interpretation.
Within the context of the game design, it is really hard to enforce this sort
of logic. Someone that is always paying attention to their droid(s), should have
time to be making TK punches, rifle sniper shots etc. In order to enforce these
rules, a new "weapon" is provide - the droid control device. In order to
control a droid for combat or attempt to capture one, you will need to have the
control device equipped. Since this is a device that must be equipped, doing so
automatically prevents you from partaking in any other form of combat - pistol,
carbine, sword, unarmed etc. Thus, you have your first balancing problem
automatically taken care of. If in combat the player unequips the device, the
droids suddenly become random in what they do. Simple logic takes over and they
become no better than an ordinary DL-10 droid, or maybe just stop doing
anything altogether (think of what happens when the Trade Federation control
ship gets blown up).
A DH should have the option of controlling a number of droids in the same way
that CH does. They have the option of either a single tough high-level droid, or
many low-level (effectively disposable) droids. I really like the idea that
the devs did with the CH creature levels being spread everywhere. The same idea
will be applied here as that seems to have effectively stopped dabblers. Initially
there would be at least 5 types of combat droids from the low-level battle droids
to the Rancor-equivalent of a Droideka. I would actually like to make the lowest
level quite low - say around 8 or so and have a many called pets option so that
a Master DH could have called say 8 disposable droids that are ineffective by
themselves but great in large numbers, or a droideka and one other droid type.
Attempting to capture a droid is difficult. A novice is going to be lucky to
capture a MSE droid, let alone a droideka. A master should have a 50/50 chance
of being able to capture a droideka, but 100% for something like a BLL or R2.
All droids can be capturable, there is no equivalent of a "baby" droid. Your
chances of capture are dependent on the droid itself, it's various resists
(eg you need an ion gun, so if the droid has high armour and high stun resists,
you're going to have a hell of a time attempting to disable it). Allowing
capture of PC droids probably should be ruled out though.
In attempting to take over a droid, you need to be very close to it. Somehow
you have to get an ion shot into it and place a restraining bolt on it. The
range here should be similar to taming - around 10m or less otherwise the attempt
is ineffective.
In order to simulate the effectiveness of command, I've taken the idea of the
speed/damage modifiers from the various combat professions. As the modifiers
get higher, the DH is able to issue commands to droids faster and their
understanding is more precise, as reflected within the damage modifiers (better
understanding means they can better damage thier target). These modifiers all
work on the base droid attack speed and damage stats as per the other weapons.
This is particularly important when thinking about groups of droids. At low
levels, but with a number of simpleton droids called, one might hear the command
aimed at another and automatically attack it too, or have a random chance of
attacking the lair rather than the creature etc. As you get more proficient at
handing out commands, droids are more likely to do exactly as you tell them.
Special Attacks: This one I've had a lot of thought over. While a creature
is fixed in what special attacks it may be able to do, a droid has far less
restrictions, within the limits of the fitted equipment. For example, almost
any droid should be capable of doing melee damage (unarmed equivalent) and
most of the time they can do ranged attacks. However, because droids can be
reprogrammed, one of the capabilities of the droid is to have it's special
attacks varied over time. Typically, this cannot be done while in combat as
it takes time and a little bit of effort to swap one aiming subroutine for
another, and thus can only be done when not in combat. However, at the master
level, by shear confidence alone, a droid can have it's special attacks
reprogrammed on the fly, during combat.
In addition, to go with the combat module idea, the DE can make combat modules
to fit to these droids. The combat modules can be fixed function or variable
function. A fixed function gives the droid the ability to do a special attack
of only one type, but cannot be reprogrammed. As a result, it would be quite
cheap to make. Some droids would only have this ability (thing basic battle
droid). The more advanced reprogrammable module (possible MDE-only item)
can be made much more expensive, thus giving a DH the option of whether to
go with programmable, expensive droids, or with cheap, fixed function,
disposables. Potentially here we could mix in something like using the
refinement line from DE to allow a DE that is making a fixed-function module
to place more attack options into a combat module.
More to follow....
Simple - he commands droids to do stuff and attempts to circumvent other
droids that have "gone wild". He either see's himself as a master of logic
able to command any droid at will to do anything, or as a cleaner - removing
unwanted and rogue droids from the galaxy. A person playing this profession
is dedicated to the task of making the best of droids to the exclusion of all
others.
The core skills of a handler is the ability to control combat droids and
the ability to capture and reprogram droids (both combat and non-combat types)
Game Balance Issues:
While anyone can command simple droids to do stuff, having a really effective
droid takes a lot of work and intimate understanding. In addition, we want to
avoid the DH/CH combo. While controlling simple-minded creatures is relatively
easy to issue, heal, sit, beg, rollover commands, one must be constantly paying
attention to a droid to make sure that logical brain does become too logical in
the interpretation.
Within the context of the game design, it is really hard to enforce this sort
of logic. Someone that is always paying attention to their droid(s), should have
time to be making TK punches, rifle sniper shots etc. In order to enforce these
rules, a new "weapon" is provide - the droid control device. In order to
control a droid for combat or attempt to capture one, you will need to have the
control device equipped. Since this is a device that must be equipped, doing so
automatically prevents you from partaking in any other form of combat - pistol,
carbine, sword, unarmed etc. Thus, you have your first balancing problem
automatically taken care of. If in combat the player unequips the device, the
droids suddenly become random in what they do. Simple logic takes over and they
become no better than an ordinary DL-10 droid, or maybe just stop doing
anything altogether (think of what happens when the Trade Federation control
ship gets blown up).
A DH should have the option of controlling a number of droids in the same way
that CH does. They have the option of either a single tough high-level droid, or
many low-level (effectively disposable) droids. I really like the idea that
the devs did with the CH creature levels being spread everywhere. The same idea
will be applied here as that seems to have effectively stopped dabblers. Initially
there would be at least 5 types of combat droids from the low-level battle droids
to the Rancor-equivalent of a Droideka. I would actually like to make the lowest
level quite low - say around 8 or so and have a many called pets option so that
a Master DH could have called say 8 disposable droids that are ineffective by
themselves but great in large numbers, or a droideka and one other droid type.
Attempting to capture a droid is difficult. A novice is going to be lucky to
capture a MSE droid, let alone a droideka. A master should have a 50/50 chance
of being able to capture a droideka, but 100% for something like a BLL or R2.
All droids can be capturable, there is no equivalent of a "baby" droid. Your
chances of capture are dependent on the droid itself, it's various resists
(eg you need an ion gun, so if the droid has high armour and high stun resists,
you're going to have a hell of a time attempting to disable it). Allowing
capture of PC droids probably should be ruled out though.
In attempting to take over a droid, you need to be very close to it. Somehow
you have to get an ion shot into it and place a restraining bolt on it. The
range here should be similar to taming - around 10m or less otherwise the attempt
is ineffective.
In order to simulate the effectiveness of command, I've taken the idea of the
speed/damage modifiers from the various combat professions. As the modifiers
get higher, the DH is able to issue commands to droids faster and their
understanding is more precise, as reflected within the damage modifiers (better
understanding means they can better damage thier target). These modifiers all
work on the base droid attack speed and damage stats as per the other weapons.
This is particularly important when thinking about groups of droids. At low
levels, but with a number of simpleton droids called, one might hear the command
aimed at another and automatically attack it too, or have a random chance of
attacking the lair rather than the creature etc. As you get more proficient at
handing out commands, droids are more likely to do exactly as you tell them.
Special Attacks: This one I've had a lot of thought over. While a creature
is fixed in what special attacks it may be able to do, a droid has far less
restrictions, within the limits of the fitted equipment. For example, almost
any droid should be capable of doing melee damage (unarmed equivalent) and
most of the time they can do ranged attacks. However, because droids can be
reprogrammed, one of the capabilities of the droid is to have it's special
attacks varied over time. Typically, this cannot be done while in combat as
it takes time and a little bit of effort to swap one aiming subroutine for
another, and thus can only be done when not in combat. However, at the master
level, by shear confidence alone, a droid can have it's special attacks
reprogrammed on the fly, during combat.
In addition, to go with the combat module idea, the DE can make combat modules
to fit to these droids. The combat modules can be fixed function or variable
function. A fixed function gives the droid the ability to do a special attack
of only one type, but cannot be reprogrammed. As a result, it would be quite
cheap to make. Some droids would only have this ability (thing basic battle
droid). The more advanced reprogrammable module (possible MDE-only item)
can be made much more expensive, thus giving a DH the option of whether to
go with programmable, expensive droids, or with cheap, fixed function,
disposables. Potentially here we could mix in something like using the
refinement line from DE to allow a DE that is making a fixed-function module
to place more attack options into a combat module.
More to follow....
BlueMorgoth
Tue Jan 20, 2004 6:02 pm
#3
The Droid Capture Line:
This line is designed be similar to the CH Taming line. It is where the DH gets
the skills needed to secure, shutdown and gain control of another droid not
currently under their control. Melee mitigation is needed so that the DH has
a chance of getting in close with the more aggresive droids to place that
restraining bolt.
Droid Capture I
Max level of droids +2
Droid takeover +10
Ability: setRestrainingBolt
Certification: Restraining Bolt
Droid Capture II
Max level of droids +2
Droid takeover +5
Melee Mitigation 1
Droid Capture III
Max level of droids +2
Droid takeover +5
Ability: Ion Droid Head Shot (ability to disable a droid through draining the mind pool)
Droid Capture IV
Max level of droids +5
Droid takeover +10
Ability: Memory Wipe
The Droid Management Line:
This line is designed to reflect the abilities of the handler to control a
single droid in combat. In addition, it has some extra abilities that will
complement the Capture line.
Droid Management I
Max level of droids +2
Droid takeover +5
Ability: Droid Shutdown (ability to turn the droid off after capturing it)
Droid Management II
Max level of droids +2
Droid takeover +5
Command: Self Repair (droid stops attacking and uses energy to
regenerate HAM/Shields at a faster rate)
Management III
Additional Droid +1
Max level of droids +3
Droid takeover +5
Command: Group Command (tell all droids to do one of the other commands something at once)
Management IV
Max level of droids +5
Droid takeover +5
Command: Guard Other (tell the droid to guard another target, such as a
droid or other player)
Command: Assist Other (tell the droid to assist another droid in whatever it is attacking)
More to follow
This line is designed be similar to the CH Taming line. It is where the DH gets
the skills needed to secure, shutdown and gain control of another droid not
currently under their control. Melee mitigation is needed so that the DH has
a chance of getting in close with the more aggresive droids to place that
restraining bolt.
Droid Capture I
Max level of droids +2
Droid takeover +10
Ability: setRestrainingBolt
Certification: Restraining Bolt
Droid Capture II
Max level of droids +2
Droid takeover +5
Melee Mitigation 1
Droid Capture III
Max level of droids +2
Droid takeover +5
Ability: Ion Droid Head Shot (ability to disable a droid through draining the mind pool)
Droid Capture IV
Max level of droids +5
Droid takeover +10
Ability: Memory Wipe
The Droid Management Line:
This line is designed to reflect the abilities of the handler to control a
single droid in combat. In addition, it has some extra abilities that will
complement the Capture line.
Droid Management I
Max level of droids +2
Droid takeover +5
Ability: Droid Shutdown (ability to turn the droid off after capturing it)
Droid Management II
Max level of droids +2
Droid takeover +5
Command: Self Repair (droid stops attacking and uses energy to
regenerate HAM/Shields at a faster rate)
Management III
Additional Droid +1
Max level of droids +3
Droid takeover +5
Command: Group Command (tell all droids to do one of the other commands something at once)
Management IV
Max level of droids +5
Droid takeover +5
Command: Guard Other (tell the droid to guard another target, such as a
droid or other player)
Command: Assist Other (tell the droid to assist another droid in whatever it is attacking)
More to follow
BlueMorgoth
Tue Jan 20, 2004 6:04 pm
#4
The Droid Empathy line:
This reflects a DH's familiarity with working with droids in combat situations.
Through this line, they get more effective and efficient at answering commands.
Droid Empathy I
Droid Command Speed +10
Droid Damage +10
Ability: Program body shot
Droid Empathy II
Droid Command Speed +10
Droid Damage +10
Ability: Droid combo attack (use both current programmed special attacks at once)
Droid Empathy III
Droid Command Speed +20
Droid Damage +20
Ability: Program leg shot
Droid Empathy IV
Droid Command Speed +10
Droid Damage +10
Ability: Program head shot
Certification: IG-88
The Droid Tactics Line
This reflects the ability to use groups of droids in combat. Where the other
lines require droid handling XP, this line will require Combat XP to advance.
Droid Tactics I
Max level of droids +2
Droid takeover +5
Additional droids +1
Stored Droid +2
Command: Unarmed attack (if using ranged weapon, close to melee and beat to death)
Command: Focus body shot (droid aims for health bar)
Droid Tactics II
Max level of droids +2
Droid takeover +5
Command: Concentrate fire (all droids aim at a single target with one command)
Certification: Super battle droid
Droid Tactics III
Max level of droids +3
Droid takeover +5
Command: droid leg shot: (Aims at the action pool)
Droid Tactics IV
Additional droids +1
Max level of droids +5
Droid takeover +5
Command: Head Shot (aims at mind pool)
Command: Self-destruct (grenade-style effect)
Certification: LOM Demolitions Droid
Master Droid Handler
A true professional droid warrior. Able to command any droid type and do things
in the heat of battle. For example, being able to tweak a droid's paramters
on the fly, while in combat, is something only a master can do. Think stat
migration here, but far faster (say 1 point per second).
Droid Command Speed +30
Droid Damage +30
Additional Droids +2
Max level of droids +10
Droid takeover +15
Command: Migrate Abilities (change droid HAM stats on the fly)
Command: Reprogram droid (change the initial special attacks)
Certification: Droideka
---
End of proposal. I hope I've got all the numbers right and they add up to 100 etc. I copied liberally from the skill sheet for CH levels etc. If I have my skill points correct, it should allow just enough for a DH/DE combo maybe with Master Artisan, but will not permit a CH/DH combo. I'd appreciate some fact checking there.
Anyway, I subject myself to the flames from this point on.
Over to you lot
This reflects a DH's familiarity with working with droids in combat situations.
Through this line, they get more effective and efficient at answering commands.
Droid Empathy I
Droid Command Speed +10
Droid Damage +10
Ability: Program body shot
Droid Empathy II
Droid Command Speed +10
Droid Damage +10
Ability: Droid combo attack (use both current programmed special attacks at once)
Droid Empathy III
Droid Command Speed +20
Droid Damage +20
Ability: Program leg shot
Droid Empathy IV
Droid Command Speed +10
Droid Damage +10
Ability: Program head shot
Certification: IG-88
The Droid Tactics Line
This reflects the ability to use groups of droids in combat. Where the other
lines require droid handling XP, this line will require Combat XP to advance.
Droid Tactics I
Max level of droids +2
Droid takeover +5
Additional droids +1
Stored Droid +2
Command: Unarmed attack (if using ranged weapon, close to melee and beat to death)
Command: Focus body shot (droid aims for health bar)
Droid Tactics II
Max level of droids +2
Droid takeover +5
Command: Concentrate fire (all droids aim at a single target with one command)
Certification: Super battle droid
Droid Tactics III
Max level of droids +3
Droid takeover +5
Command: droid leg shot: (Aims at the action pool)
Droid Tactics IV
Additional droids +1
Max level of droids +5
Droid takeover +5
Command: Head Shot (aims at mind pool)
Command: Self-destruct (grenade-style effect)
Certification: LOM Demolitions Droid
Master Droid Handler
A true professional droid warrior. Able to command any droid type and do things
in the heat of battle. For example, being able to tweak a droid's paramters
on the fly, while in combat, is something only a master can do. Think stat
migration here, but far faster (say 1 point per second).
Droid Command Speed +30
Droid Damage +30
Additional Droids +2
Max level of droids +10
Droid takeover +15
Command: Migrate Abilities (change droid HAM stats on the fly)
Command: Reprogram droid (change the initial special attacks)
Certification: Droideka
---
End of proposal. I hope I've got all the numbers right and they add up to 100 etc. I copied liberally from the skill sheet for CH levels etc. If I have my skill points correct, it should allow just enough for a DH/DE combo maybe with Master Artisan, but will not permit a CH/DH combo. I'd appreciate some fact checking there.
Anyway, I subject myself to the flames from this point on.
Over to you lot
Hillslayer
Tue Jan 20, 2004 6:10 pm
#5
It's too much BE/CH. It's so close that people will simply go after which is the stronger at the moment, leving the other abandoned.
BlueMorgoth
Tue Jan 20, 2004 6:21 pm
#6
That is exactly the point. It is supposed to be the equivalent of BE/CH but with machines rather than flesh. Some differences, some similarities. It gives people the option to go with whichever pet-tanking profession they want.
Salahsur
Tue Jan 20, 2004 6:21 pm
#7
Not a good setup - the skillpoint cost for any reasonable construction of MDE/MA, plus your pre-requisites, adds up to 212. Only 38 points left for a MDE to be able to use their own creations, which is wrong. No matter what you argue, MDE without MA is only marginally feasible, and not a serious option. The inclusion MUST be accounted for in a fair system.
Why do we need Scouting at all? Droids are urban creatures, not wildlife creatures. Eliminating those two trees leaves us 43 more skill points to spare, lowering the cost to 169. At that point, MDE/MDH/MA would require 232 skill points, leaving only 18 points open for other uses.
For the cost you're looking at there, the output has to be MUCH better than the construct you're discussing allows. No droid controller, constant autonomous action, great combat power, and so on.
Frankly, I see no reason why it shouldn't be left to Engineering 4 as the pre-requisite. MCH/MDH would still be achievable, but it would cost 188 skill points(no additional masteries with 62 skill points left over) and the MDH wouldn't be anywhere close to self-sufficient - they'd have to get all sorts of stuff from MDE/MA types of people.
Why do we need Scouting at all? Droids are urban creatures, not wildlife creatures. Eliminating those two trees leaves us 43 more skill points to spare, lowering the cost to 169. At that point, MDE/MDH/MA would require 232 skill points, leaving only 18 points open for other uses.
For the cost you're looking at there, the output has to be MUCH better than the construct you're discussing allows. No droid controller, constant autonomous action, great combat power, and so on.
Frankly, I see no reason why it shouldn't be left to Engineering 4 as the pre-requisite. MCH/MDH would still be achievable, but it would cost 188 skill points(no additional masteries with 62 skill points left over) and the MDH wouldn't be anywhere close to self-sufficient - they'd have to get all sorts of stuff from MDE/MA types of people.
Hillslayer
Tue Jan 20, 2004 6:22 pm
#8
Therein lies the problem. People will automatically head to the "more uber" of the two.
EricTheGreat
Tue Jan 20, 2004 6:25 pm
#9
and if they are almost identical, wouldnt the pets with ranged weapons be more usefull than those with melee? especially in pvp?
Sodan-droiddreamer
Tue Jan 20, 2004 6:33 pm
#10
Hillslayer wrote:
It's too much BE/CH. It's so close that people will simply go after which is the stronger at the moment, leving the other abandoned.
/agree
More basically, the idea of DH is not a good one.
BlueMorgoth
Tue Jan 20, 2004 6:35 pm
#11
Not a good setup - the skillpoint cost for any reasonable construction of MDE/MA, plus your pre-requisites, adds up to 212....No matter what you argue, MDE without MA is only marginally feasible, and not a serious option.
My first counter to that is any argument that says to be a DE you are required to be a MA is invalid. It is nice, useful to have, but that is it. It is a convenience only. It is quite easy to play without MA skills. Many DEs do. I did for months until I decided I wasn't going to do combat and thus I may as well put the points to use somewhere. If you want to be both a DE and a DH, you do not need complete artisan skills. There is enough skill points left over to get survey IV, which is can be useful if you want to mine your own minerals.
Why do we need Scouting at all? Droids are urban creatures, not wildlife creatures.
Droids aren't all urban. Particularly those that have "gone feral" don't all hang around in major metropolitan circles. Looks at Jawas here for the example. They live far from cities and would have the equivalent scout skills. I'm trying not to be a complete CH clone, but also have an element of the "droidcatcher" to the story line.
Frankly, I see no reason why it shouldn't be left to Engineering 4 as the pre-requisite. MCH/MDH would still be achievable, but it would cost 188 skill points(no additional masteries with 62 skill points left over)
The reason for this logic is that with a MCH having 3 grauls called, and at the same time having 8+ battle droids, the player will be close to impossible to defeat in combat as a one-man army. The high skill point costs are there to deliberately prevent that from happening.
My first counter to that is any argument that says to be a DE you are required to be a MA is invalid. It is nice, useful to have, but that is it. It is a convenience only. It is quite easy to play without MA skills. Many DEs do. I did for months until I decided I wasn't going to do combat and thus I may as well put the points to use somewhere. If you want to be both a DE and a DH, you do not need complete artisan skills. There is enough skill points left over to get survey IV, which is can be useful if you want to mine your own minerals.
Why do we need Scouting at all? Droids are urban creatures, not wildlife creatures.
Droids aren't all urban. Particularly those that have "gone feral" don't all hang around in major metropolitan circles. Looks at Jawas here for the example. They live far from cities and would have the equivalent scout skills. I'm trying not to be a complete CH clone, but also have an element of the "droidcatcher" to the story line.
Frankly, I see no reason why it shouldn't be left to Engineering 4 as the pre-requisite. MCH/MDH would still be achievable, but it would cost 188 skill points(no additional masteries with 62 skill points left over)
The reason for this logic is that with a MCH having 3 grauls called, and at the same time having 8+ battle droids, the player will be close to impossible to defeat in combat as a one-man army. The high skill point costs are there to deliberately prevent that from happening.
BlueMorgoth
Tue Jan 20, 2004 6:40 pm
#12
EricTheGreat wrote:
and if they are almost identical, wouldnt the pets with ranged weapons be more usefull than those with melee? especially in pvp?
Not necessarily. Ask the same thing about PvP right now. What do people like to do as a combos - Master Brawler/TK is an extremely difficult combo to defeat. I'm not sure how the other servers go, but pets have all but disappeared in PvP combat now (except AT-STs). Or, the same thing that LFD are using right now - TKM/Rifleman. A good combat requires a mixture of both. The ability of a master DH to reprogram specials on the fly is a clear advantage over using pets. What if they could have that droideka change from ranged mind hit to unarmed KD if the combatant got too close, or any other such ability. The major distinction the combat realm here is that while a CH can heal pets with stims, but have fixed attack types, a DH has slower repair (the regen ability) but changable attack types.
StrayCat1212
Tue Jan 20, 2004 6:48 pm
#13
Where would these "feral" droids be found? Aside from the droideka cave, do you think that a colony of R2 units could be found roaming? And what would these droids found have for functions? Level 1 data module, level 1 medical module in a 5 module droid chassis? From the explaination above, rogue droids would be extremely rare. More so than the bull rancor baby. Certainly one could not tame someone else's droids as that could lead to griefing. So I'd say that the whole taming or capturing rogue droids can be effectively taken out.
Now, how powerful do you think that it would be to have a pet that can range attack, target any HAM bar, have special abilities at range, have different damage types, be armor plated, and possibly have shield generators installed? How fast would this class get nerfed? And along with this DH class getting nerfed will be DE's who are the creators of said products that no one wants. I think DH is a profession that everyone is just going to be spinning their wheels on to balance, integrate, find a niche for, and in the end nerf it into submission cause it was a bad idea to begin with.
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