Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: If we're going to have high end combat droids, and a class dedicated to them, how about this?
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Nell2ThaIzzay
Thu Nov 18, 2004 4:44 pm
#1
I'm not familiar with too many classes in this game outside of my own (hell, I'm not completely familiar with my own, lol)
But, this idea came to me when reading another thread in the DE forums.
How's about the Squad Leaders can get droid commanding bonuses in one of their trees. Now, again, I don't know what the hell the Squad Leader trees are. But let's look at it like this:
1. Many classes already have droids specialized to them (Dancers and Musicians with Entertainer Droids, Bounty Hunters and Smugglers with Detonation Droids, Pilots with Astromechs, Scouts with Harvestor droids, etc... etc...). This could in turn just be new droids specialized for aprofession, instead of a new profession specialized for droids.
2. It would not introduce a new profession into the game that would in turn be the same thing as Creature Handlers with a different skin. Along with that, it would not introduce the bugs that would come with a new profession.
3. We would be able to make our Droidekas, and other top end combat droids that a majority of Droid Engineers seem to want. We would have the same market for these droids (theoretically) as we would if we opened up a new profession. Probably even larger, because we wouldn't have to wait for people to grind out the pre-req's and work their way up the Droid Commander tree. There are already Squad Leaders in the game, so there would be an instant demand for them.
4. It would benefit an already existing class into the game, hence helping out something that already exists, instead of ignoring (I dunno how bad Squad Leaders do or don't have it) classes already in game to focus on a new one.
5. I don't think that this will put the profession on the level of Creature Handlers (hence, causing possibly too much competition for them / us) since Squad Leaders would have just 1 tree for droids, not the entire profession.
It was in the thread posted about what each class felt their needs were with droids, and the creator of the post mentioned something about "There are so many possibilities with Squad Leader that they can become our Droid Handlers", and then I got to thinking about it, and I don't think implementing Droid Commander in this way is really a bad idea. Again, I am not familiar with other classes other than my own, so I don't know the layout of the Squad Leader profession. But just as a quick suggestion, we can put some droid certs and abilities throughout one of their trees, and as they progress, they can get better and better combat droids. I don't know, the Creature Handlers might not like this, but from my point of view (I am also a Creature Handler), I don't think it's that bad of an idea. *IF* the Droid Commander idea goes through, this is how I'd like to see it implemented. The Droid Engineers get their top combat droids to sell, to a profession that has to spend skill points to get them, without the hassle of introducing new bugs through a new class, and yet another profession that people have to spread their already limited skill points on. I think this is the best solution, as it gives us what Droid Commander would be meant for, only it gives it to an already existing profession and benefits them. This seems like a win / win condition from my perspective.
What do you guys think?
Message Edited by Nell2ThaIzzay on 11-18-2004 03:48 PM
TheRealTK421
Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:10 pm
#2
I think you should try to make sure the SL's actually want this first.
Nell2ThaIzzay wrote:
What do you guys think?
Message Edited by Nell2ThaIzzay on 11-18-2004 03:48 PM
Note: In the past, something like 2/3rd of forum SLs stated that they didn't want to be a 'pet' class.
/bow
Respectfully,
Sodan-droiddreamer
Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:13 pm
#3
Nell2ThaIzzay wrote:
But just as a quick suggestion, we can put some droid certs and abilities throughout one of their trees, and as they progress, they can get better and better combat droids. *IF* the Droid Commander idea goes through, this is how I'd like to see it implemented. The Droid Engineers get their top combat droids to sell, to a profession that has to spend skill points to get them, without the hassle of introducing new bugs through a new class, and yet another profession that people have to spread their already limited skill points on. I think this is the best solution, as it gives us what Droid Commander would be meant for, only it gives it to an already existing profession and benefits them. This seems like a win / win condition from my perspective.
What do you guys think?
Message Edited by Nell2ThaIzzay on 11-18-2004 03:48 PM
Thanks for your constructive thoughts on this issue. It's obvious that most DEs want to be able to make and sell cool combat droids like droidekas. The question is, how? Many suggestions have been put forward, including this one.
Months ago, we had many long debates on these boards, and many "certification" proposals were made. Namely, that rather than make a new profession that can use these cool droids, the droid "certifications" would be put into existing skill trees. This proposal was rejected by the Devs because it represented "free checkers" to existing professions. No one gets free checkers. The Devs do not want to add high end combat droids without requiring players to spend time and skillpoints earning them.
I support your proposal and variants of it, but it has already been rejected. Unfortunately, those of of us who have been around these boards long enough will tell you that Droid Commander is the only way we will get to make these cool combat droids.
I don't like DC personally. I spent many hours working against it.A lot of people did. In the end the Devs dropped the DC idea and dropped high end combat droids as well. They gave us utility droids instead. Most were cool,none are necessary, and they are rarely used.
So now I have changed my mind. I don't like DC, but if that's what it takes to get awesome combat droids, so be it. I've had more fun using droids as a non-DE than I did making them when I was an MDE. I'll spend the skill points to get my droideka.
Nell2ThaIzzay
Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:20 am
#4
I dunno, Squad Leader just seems the most logical to me. If the devs don't like it, then I give up.
This was my compromise, so those who want their combat droids can have them (I could really care less about combat droids. The idea of them is what brought me to the DE profession, but after I saw everything else we had the potential for, I was taken with the utility aspect of our profession), and it will still require skill points to use them, seeing as those you'd have to take Squad Leader to get the droids.
If the Squad Leaders don't like it, we shouldn't force it on them. And I was around for all of the certification talks and everything too. I didn't like the certs either, because at the time, I was at the mindset that anyone should be able to use a droid. It's not the same as a creature that has naturally wild instincts and would require skill to tame, or a weapon that would take skill and experience to wield. I don't think that Luke was a Droid Commander, but he handled R2 pretty well.
I really don't want the DC profession. The only combat droid I am even remotley interested in is the Droideka. I don't want all those other droids. I want the focus of the Droid Engineering profession to be more on utility, helping players with tasks, and giving them bonuses to those tasks that would make it stupid not to have a droid. I don't want combat droids. You say that we don't have neccesity, and our droids are rarely used. Well, you're right, our droids aren't *required*. Before I left in April, I never got tells from people asking me to make them a droid. Now all of a sudden with all the different droids we can make, I get tells daily now asking me to make them a droid. I only have Business 3 to support my vendor, no advertising what so ever, and every once in awhile I get an e-mail saying myvendor sold some droids. And if I put something up on the bazaar, it doesn't last.Hell, I am in a guild because I delivered an order to someone in her player city.
Point I'm trying to make is that, our market might not be that of the Weaponsmiths, and Armorsmiths, and Architects, and Shipwrights. But we have business. We have droids that people want. Our class isn't perfect, we do need some work. But a Droid Commander class and a bunch of combat droids will completely divert the attention away from what we really should be. I don't want to be just another weapon making class. If I wanted that, I'd be a Weaponsmith. I don't want to be making combat pets, if I did I'd be a Bio-Engineer (well, I do want to be a Bio-Engineer also, but that's a story for another time).
I feel that combat droids are the wrong direction of what our profession should be, and diverting another class to use those combat droids I think is a waste of time and is just the devs' "easy" fix to avoid our real problems. They need to get over themselves, and get rid of that lame "No extra checkers" mentality, and give us droids that are more needed than they are now. How is it fair that Chefs can make food that enhance your HAM, and Doctors can give you buffs that make you (near)invincible, but having a droid that can hold a couple extra mission waypoints is extra checkers?
So now they wanna take the easy way out, throw us in as a combat weapons making class, just like everyone else, and make a class that will use our weapons. I'm not a damned Weaponsmith. And where are the skill points going to come from for the Droid Commander class? You might grind the skill points out, but I don't think a lot of people will give up all that they worked for to command a damn droid. Adding droid certs to Squad Leader (or another class that would make logical sense, if you can think of one, let me know) in my mind is the only viable solution for this. To get droids, you still need to spend the skill points, the Droid Engineers that want their combat droids will make them, but without 1 profession entirely devoted to us, we don't have to completely shift the purpose of our profession to making weapons. It's really my only compromise. But, as I've learned since I've been on these boards since whenever the hell I signed on, the devs aren't willing to compromise. They don't want to listen to the player base, and see what they want. They already have it in their minds what they want to do with this game, and are gonna do it. Well, I'll continue to play, becausethis is a very fun game... but whenever other MMORPG's start coming out, Cryptic and NC Soft will be getting a second look from me.
Steel-Rat
Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:46 pm
#5
Free checkers? What the heck is that? So the reasoning is we can't make a combat droid that can stand up to the best non-CH animal? That's BS, plain and simple.
I am VERY against creating a new class to be able to make high-end combat droids. DEs are crippled enough as it is. Just make them very expensive to make, requireing specialized components. And get rid of the usless droids, like the basic BLL. No combat or general slots?? W T F??
If the devs read these forums they must sit back and laugh, really. They don't fix bugs that have been there from the start, they make "fixes" and add-ons that make droid
models obsolete, but don't replace them with something else. So there are several schematics that will never get used. And they almost force you to create multiple accounts so you can have enough house storage and harvesters to be able to compete in your profession. No, they don't give a damn, that's really obvious. If they did they would FIX THE BUGS instead of adding new emotion animations, or changing existing ones.
And now I can't make any droid that requires an advanced motive system because the schematics don't recognize control units as a valid ingredient. Nice move guys. Good one, give yourselves a pat on the back, and a kick in the ass. You've already given me a good one.
Nell2ThaIzzay
Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:58 pm
#6
"Free checkers" is an analogy one of the devs used quite awhile back when the Droid Engineers were fighting for more droids (utility modules and combat chasis).
We wanted droids that could help in everyday tasks, and as well in combat, but the dev came out with an analogy saying that would be giving players free checkers, and that's not fair to the PvE system.
However, what I don't get, this whole arguement was right around the time that Chefs started getting really good buff food, and Doctors were getting the really good buffs. So it's like, wth, Chefs and Doctors can make something next to invincible (when I'm on Dant and not worried about being hit by like 2 or 3 creatures at a time that all con red to me solo...) but the Droid Engineers can't make a droid that will help out with everyday tasks?
The free checkers analogy is a completely lame one that has no merit. It's just the devs' easy way out of actually fixing our profession. And the only way they are going to make us useful, is to give us the Droid Commander class, which will screw us over even more, because that means the devs will never work on more utility droids for us, we'll be stuck as being another weaponsmith, or Bio-Engineer, and the Droid Commander will be another Creature Handler, which will probably end up nerfed into infinity because the Creature Handlers won't like having another pet class (that will probably be better than them), so we'll end up making nerfed droidekas that won't be worth the resources we put into it anyways, and we will end up in the same position we are now.
Sodan-droiddreamer
Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:48 pm
#7
Nell2ThaIzzay wrote:
"Free checkers" is an analogy one of the devs used quite awhile back when the Droid Engineers were fighting for more droids (utility modules and combat chasis).
We wanted droids that could help in everyday tasks, and as well in combat, but the dev came out with an analogy saying that would be giving players free checkers, and that's not fair to the PvE system.
I don't agree with the analogy either. Realistically, we have to accept it and move on.
However, what I don't get, this whole arguement was right around the time that Chefs started getting really good buff food, and Doctors were getting the really good buffs. So it's like, wth, Chefs and Doctors can make something next to invincible (when I'm on Dant and not worried about being hit by like 2 or 3 creatures at a time that all con red to me solo...) but the Droid Engineers can't make a droid that will help out with everyday tasks?
Chefs and Doctor's give temporary bonuses too players limited by the high cost in making the buffs with rare resources. The Devs view pets as permanent additional damage output which skews combat balance -- especially if you don't have to spend skillpoints to get the additional damage output. I disagree with their persective, but we have to accept it and move on.
The free checkers analogy is a completely lame one that has no merit. It's just the devs' easy way out of actually fixing our profession. And the only way they are going to make us useful, is to give us the Droid Commander class, which will screw us over even more, because that means the devs will never work on more utility droids for us, we'll be stuck as being another weaponsmith, or Bio-Engineer, and the Droid Commander will be another Creature Handler, which will probably end up nerfed into infinity because the Creature Handlers won't like having another pet class (that will probably be better than them), so we'll end up making nerfed droidekas that won't be worth the resources we put into it anyways, and we will end up in the same position we are now.
Your comments above consist of rampant speculation. You don't know that CHs will complain about have DC in the game. Maybe some CHs would like to be DCs. If I want to control a rancor, why would I care if someone wanted to control a droideka? DC does not compete with CH. The two professions can work together side-by-side. And if implemented correctly they can be very different professions. (No taming for DC, for example). Our droidekas won't be nerfed if they are properly implemented to begin with and the devs have already balanced pets so they can just apply the same rules. Finally, the DC market is an ADDITIONAL market for DEs, not the ONLY market. DEs get their existing markets PLUS the DC market. I'm not sure why this is not clear to you. You don't have to make Droidekas; I never made a single combat R-unit just out of principle.
Sodan-droiddreamer
Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:49 pm
#8
I don't think the general tone of this thread is appropriate and not very helpful, even though I agree with the general sentiment. We'll never get the Devs attention by merely b*tching at them.
Steel-Rat wrote:
Free checkers? What the heck is that? So the reasoning is we can't make a combat droid that can stand up to the best non-CH animal? That's BS, plain and simple.
I am VERY against creating a new class to be able to make high-end combat droids. DEs are crippled enough as it is. Just make them very expensive to make, requireing specialized components. And get rid of the usless droids, like the basic BLL. No combat or general slots?? W T F??
If the devs read these forums they must sit back and laugh, really. They don't fix bugs that have been there from the start, they make "fixes" and add-ons that make droid
models obsolete, but don't replace them with something else. So there are several schematics that will never get used. And they almost force you to create multiple accounts so you can have enough house storage and harvesters to be able to compete in your profession. No, they don't give a damn, that's really obvious. If they did they would FIX THE BUGS instead of adding new emotion animations, or changing existing ones.
And now I can't make any droid that requires an advanced motive system because the schematics don't recognize control units as a valid ingredient. Nice move guys. Good one, give yourselves a pat on the back, and a kick in the ass. You've already given me a good one.
Nell2ThaIzzay
Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:32 am
#9
Your comments above consist of rampant speculation. You don't know that CHs will complain about have DC in the game. Maybe some CHs would like to be DCs. If I want to control a rancor, why would I care if someone wanted to control a droideka? DC does not compete with CH. The two professions can work together side-by-side. And if implemented correctly they can be very different professions. (No taming for DC, for example). Our droidekas won't be nerfed if they are properly implemented to begin with and the devs have already balanced pets so they can just apply the same rules. Finally, the DC market is an ADDITIONAL market for DEs, not the ONLY market. DEs get their existing markets PLUS the DC market. I'm not sure why this is not clear to you. You don't have to make Droidekas; I never made a single combat R-unit just out of principle.
*If* implemented properly. I'm sorry, but I don't have faith in the devs to properly implement something. This game has been out for over a year, and still runs like it's in beta (Hell, I've played betas that ran smoother than this game does now). Over a year later, they still don't have the combat figured out. And if you ever check the Jump To Lightspeed forums, you'll see how properly implemented that was. What makes you think that the devs are going to all of a sudden implement a new profession that's going to magically work perfectly? It's not going to happen.
Droid Commanders will end up being our only market, because the Droid Commanders are going to rely on us. So the devs are going to start focusing on fixes to the Droid Commanders, and our combat droids. They'll forget all about the utility droids and probably never implement another fix or upgrade to them. And if they do, it will be itty bitty minor stuff. Putting in Droid Commander will be the end of the Droid Engineering profession as it is now, it will just turn into another weaponsmith class, making weapons, weapons, and more weapons for yet another combat class. I don't believe, from my experience on these boards, that we will see attention given to both our combat droids and our utility droids. We hardly get any attention now as it is. What do you think is gonna happen when they have 2 things to focus on? They are going to put what effort they do give us into the droids that directly affect another class.
The difference with you not making combat R-Series droids, and me not making Droidekas, is going to be, right now as it is, you can still sell combat droids in Probots and DZ70's, or even LE Repair Droids. And there is a market for those droids. When Droid Commander is implemented, and I'm not making those combat droids because I don't believe in the Droid Commander class, my sales will continue to suffer. The Droid Commander market will be the only large market. I won't be able to make money off of my utility droids, no more than I do now. The Droid Commander class won't be *another* market, it will be the *only* market, because those are the droids that are going to get all of the attention.
Is it just speculation? Yes. But it's what I truly believe will happen if this class is implemented, because I have seen how the devs have handled us before. And I'm sorry if I'm being a bit hostile, or aggressive. I truly don't mean to disrespect another point of view. This talk of Droid Commander just completely frustrates me, because I actually find it disrespectful of the devs to implement this. We as a community have tried to compromise. They won't compromise. I have tried to compromise (with this idea, or something simular to it, which would give the devs what they want, and the DE's what we want), but according to you, it has been shot down already. I don't know how else to act. The devs don't want to compromise with us, they want to tell us how things should be. In an ever evolving game like this, I don't feel that's how you should deal with your player base. To bring up a cliche example (cliche coming from me, anyways), Cryptic, NC Soft, and the developers of City of Heroes knew how to deal with their player base. They gave out info to the players on what direction they were taking the game. Then the players gave their feedback on whether they liked that direction or not, and the devs listened to it. It was a 2 way street when that game was being made, and many of the things in that game are from ideas that players came up with. You could post a question and it was rare not to get a dev response. There was constant communication, and cooperation between the players and developers. AND that game ran smoother in beta than this game does now. That's why, even tho I'm not really playing CoH anymore (admitedly, it got pretty repetetive), I am still paying for my account for it, because of the way the devs handled that game, I feel good knowing where my $15 is going, while I wait until I decide I want to go back. I didn't feel that way about this game when I cancelled my account the first time (largely because of the original Droid Commander talks).
I'm just very frustrated. And maybe I shouldn't be, because right now, there is no Droid Commander class, and except for this, and the other thread, there aren't any talks, or signs, that it will be implemented. So by this point, it might all just be pointless debates. I hope it remains that way. I'd hate to see this profession implemented, and the Droid Engineering profession disrespected like this.
That's just my 2 credits and an MSE droid, tho by this point, I've probably worked my way up to an R2 basic by now.
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