Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Combat Droid Mini-Tree Proposal (Revisited)
Page 1 of 1
Daker-Naritus
Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:01 pm
#1
Ok, so according to our fearless leader (TK), our last and final hope for CL10+ combat droids anytime in the near future (Sodan's Plan)just got axed. Ourlast and final hope shattered. I am as pissed as all of the rest of you.
HOWEVER, I think it is importantthat wetake some time and coordinate quickly to tell the developersEXACTLY what we do want anddon't want, to avoid further debacles like the "Droid Invasion" as we enter our next 6 month period of silence from the devs. If we give them free reign to develop without our feedback, we risk getting another proposal that we hate, thereby delaying progress further when we don't like it.
From TK, it sounds like we have 2 possible options: (1) the Droid Commander profession, and (2) TK's Faction Pet idea.
Personally, I HATE the Droid Commander 4-tree-profession idea in any way, shape, or form. I think it will reserve the coolest combat droids (read: the most appealing and marketable droids) to those few people who spend a massive amount of skill points to justify a CL70 pet, and merely creates a CH cutout. I don't think this would substantially improve droid sales in the manner we want it to. I also note that after the last CH nerf (that nerfed dabbling and divided CL+ pet mods over the whole profession), you barely see any CHs anymore because no one wants to make the massive skill point investment required to have CL70 pets.
I think the best solution would be to limit the best combat droids to around CL30 (instead of the CL70 that the devs proposed), and then to find some way to balance that.
I like TK's faction pet idea a lot, as it fits the CL30 mold. However, I wonder if that will, in the end, help. There are currently truckloads of CL30+ faction pets in the game, but I rarely see people use them. That may be because they are expensive, that may be because they have only limited usefulness. I dunno.
All I know is that we need a way to supply (as in sell)useful combat droids to as many players as possible, and we need those players to use those droids enough that they wear out and need to be rebought or repaired by us.
For the sake of discussion, I thought I would re-propose the mini-tree Idea I had, which many disagreed with because it would take a long time to implement. It now appears we have at least 6 or so months before we will be getting combat droids, so this might be a viable option...
Does this accomplish what we need to accomplish? Does it do what we need it to do? What changes do we need to make to make it suit our needs?
Background:
The basis for this idea originally came from Drashk and his Droid Commander proposal. I liked Drashk's proposal a lot, but felt it went a little further than where we needed to go. Specifically, I thought that droids should be limited to CL30-40 (instead of in the 70s) and that the skill point investment should be kept to about 2 tree's worth, instead of a full 4 tree profession's worth.
My idea is based on the following 3 premises:
(1) Many DEs want to craft, a market for combat droids needs to be preserved. This market is hindered if only DEs can use combat droids
(2) Some DEs want to use combat droids as well as make them. It is important that DEs have some access to combat droids.
(3) Some DEs want a droid advantage of some kind.
So incorporating all these ideas, here is my ideas (including modification of Drashk's proposal)
All Players:
Outside of Droid Commanderany PC would be able to control 1 Level 10 Droid.
The Droid Commander
The Droid Commander would be a two-treemini-Profession. The basic layout would be the same as every other 4 tree profession, only with the 2 outside trees missing.
Basically, thismini-profession would be unavailable to everyone until they met certain pre-requisites. I envision the prerequisites to be that any player who becomes a novice of any elite profession (elite=any profession above novice), unlocks the Droid Commander Profession.At a minimum, the player must invest 29 Skill points (novice DE for example) to get access to the Droid Commander Profession. This is exactly the same as all other professions, which require non-professional prereqs. to entitle you to learn the skill.
The important aspects include that:
(1)It gives you nothing for free. ALL novice elite players get NO further droid ability without spending extra skill points. This meets TH's criteria of "no extra checkers."
(2) It does not interfere with, or encourage intrusion into, the DE profession. Any players who (a) meet the prerequisites and (b) spend the skill points, can use droids.
(3) It makes droids available to anyone who (a) meets the prerequisites and (b) spend the skill points, thereby preserving a good market for combat droids
(4) It utilizes combat experience for skilling up instead of crafting experience. If people are going to skill up on droid use, it makes sense that they will use the experience from using their droids to skill up instead of crafting experience.
(5) It preserves a DE-only advantage...an extra droid.
Basic Plan Layout: (Drashk's Plan Substantially Revised)
Novice Droid Commander (10 Skill Points)
+2 Max Droid Level / +1 Stored Droids
Skill - Overload 1
Cost - 50000 Combat Experience
+2 Max Droid Level / +1 Stored Droids
Skill - Overload 1
Cost - 50000 Combat Experience
Droid Commander Tree 1
Droid Combat Enhancement I (5 Skill Points)
+2 Max Droid Level
Skill - Supercharge 1
Cost - 75000 Droid Command Experience
+2 Max Droid Level
Skill - Supercharge 1
Cost - 75000 Droid Command Experience
Droid Combat Enhancement II (4 Skill Points)
+2 Max Droid Level / +1 Stored Droids
Skill - Overload 2
Cost - 100000 Droid Command Experience
+2 Max Droid Level / +1 Stored Droids
Skill - Overload 2
Cost - 100000 Droid Command Experience
Droid Combat Enhancement III (3 Skill Points)
+3 Max Droid Level
Skill - Supercharge 2
Cost - 150000 Droid Command Experience
Droid Combat Enhancement IV (2 Skill Points)
+3 Max Droid Level / +1 Stored Droids
Skill - Overload 3
Cost - 200000 Droid Command Experience
+3 Max Droid Level
Skill - Supercharge 2
Cost - 150000 Droid Command Experience
Droid Combat Enhancement IV (2 Skill Points)
+3 Max Droid Level / +1 Stored Droids
Skill - Overload 3
Cost - 200000 Droid Command Experience
Droid Commander Tree 2
Droid Tactics I (5 Skill Points)
+2 Max Droid Level
Skill - Suppression Fire
Cost - 75000 Droid Command Experience
+2 Max Droid Level
Skill - Suppression Fire
Cost - 75000 Droid Command Experience
Droid Tactics II (4 Skill Points)
+2 Max Droid Level / +1 Stored Droids
Skill - Speed Boost
Cost - 100000 Droid Command Experience / 4 Skill Points
+2 Max Droid Level / +1 Stored Droids
Skill - Speed Boost
Cost - 100000 Droid Command Experience / 4 Skill Points
Droid Tactics III (3 Skill Points)
+3 Max Droid Level
Skill - Tactical Fire
Cost - 150000 Droid Command Experience / 3 Skill Points
Droid Tactics IV (2 Skill Points)
+3 Max Droid Level / +1 Stored Droids
Skill - Accuracy Boost
Cost - 200000 Droid Command Experience
+3 Max Droid Level
Skill - Tactical Fire
Cost - 150000 Droid Command Experience / 3 Skill Points
Droid Tactics IV (2 Skill Points)
+3 Max Droid Level / +1 Stored Droids
Skill - Accuracy Boost
Cost - 200000 Droid Command Experience
Master Droid Commander (5 Skill Points)
+3 Max Droid Level / +1 Additional Droid / +2 Stored Droids
Skill - Overload 4 / Supercharge 3
Cost - 620 Apprenticeship Points
+3 Max Droid Level / +1 Additional Droid / +2 Stored Droids
Skill - Overload 4 / Supercharge 3
Cost - 620 Apprenticeship Points
Explanation of Abilities: (NOTE: These play nicely with the droid power meter that is being added to the next 2 patches).
Overload 1 - Increases the damage output of 1 Droid by 10% on its next 5 attacks. After the 5th attack, the Droid's battery is depleted. This skill can only be used on 1 droid every 90 seconds.
Overload 2 - Increases the damage output of 1 Droid by 30% on its next 5 attacks. After the 5th attack, the Droid's battery is depleted. This skill can only be used on 1 droid every 90 seconds.
Overload 3 - Increases the damage output of 1 Droid by 50% on its next 5 attacks. After the 5th attack, the Droid's battery is depleted. This skill can only be used on 1 droid every 90 seconds.
Overload 4 - Increases the damage output of 1 Droid by 70% on its next 5 attacks. After the 5th attack, the Droid's battery is depleted. This skill can only be used on 1 droid every 90 seconds.
Supercharge 1 - Increases the HAM pools of one droid for 10 minutes by 15%. After the 10 minutes, the Droid's battery is depleted. This skill can only be used on 1 droid once every 90 seconds
Supercharge 2 - Increases the HAM pools of one droid for 10 minutes by 30%. After the 10 minutes, the Droid's battery is depleted. This skill can only be used on 1 droid once every 90 seconds
Supercharge 3 - Increases the HAM pools of one droid for 10 minutes by 45%. After the 10 minutes, the Droid's battery is depleted. This skill can only be used on 1 droid once every 90 seconds
Suppression Fire - Causes all droids under the DCs command to fire at a single target to reduce the targets chance to hit for 5 seconds. The targets chance to hit is reduced by 10% for each droid involved in this action. This ability can only be performed once every 90 seconds.
Tactical Shot - Causes all droids under the DCs command to attack a single target as if they were firing a single shot. 5% is added to the total damage for every droid that is included in the shot. This action can only be performed once every 90 seconds.
Speed Boost - Increases the Speed of 1 Droid by 25% for 10 minutes. After the 10 minutes, the Droid's battery is depleted. This skill can only be used on 1 droid once every 90 seconds
Accuracy Boost - Increases the Accuracy of 1 Droid by 25% for 10 minutes. After the 10 minutes, the Droid's battery is depleted. This skill can only be used on 1 droid once every 90 seconds
Overload 2 - Increases the damage output of 1 Droid by 30% on its next 5 attacks. After the 5th attack, the Droid's battery is depleted. This skill can only be used on 1 droid every 90 seconds.
Overload 3 - Increases the damage output of 1 Droid by 50% on its next 5 attacks. After the 5th attack, the Droid's battery is depleted. This skill can only be used on 1 droid every 90 seconds.
Overload 4 - Increases the damage output of 1 Droid by 70% on its next 5 attacks. After the 5th attack, the Droid's battery is depleted. This skill can only be used on 1 droid every 90 seconds.
Supercharge 1 - Increases the HAM pools of one droid for 10 minutes by 15%. After the 10 minutes, the Droid's battery is depleted. This skill can only be used on 1 droid once every 90 seconds
Supercharge 2 - Increases the HAM pools of one droid for 10 minutes by 30%. After the 10 minutes, the Droid's battery is depleted. This skill can only be used on 1 droid once every 90 seconds
Supercharge 3 - Increases the HAM pools of one droid for 10 minutes by 45%. After the 10 minutes, the Droid's battery is depleted. This skill can only be used on 1 droid once every 90 seconds
Suppression Fire - Causes all droids under the DCs command to fire at a single target to reduce the targets chance to hit for 5 seconds. The targets chance to hit is reduced by 10% for each droid involved in this action. This ability can only be performed once every 90 seconds.
Tactical Shot - Causes all droids under the DCs command to attack a single target as if they were firing a single shot. 5% is added to the total damage for every droid that is included in the shot. This action can only be performed once every 90 seconds.
Speed Boost - Increases the Speed of 1 Droid by 25% for 10 minutes. After the 10 minutes, the Droid's battery is depleted. This skill can only be used on 1 droid once every 90 seconds
Accuracy Boost - Increases the Accuracy of 1 Droid by 25% for 10 minutes. After the 10 minutes, the Droid's battery is depleted. This skill can only be used on 1 droid once every 90 seconds
A Master Droid Commander would have a total of +25 Max Droid Levels (for a maximum droid level of CL35), +7 Stored Droids, and +1 Additional Droids (2 droids total). The total cost from Novice to Master would be 1100000 Combat Droid Experience,43 skill points (plus whatever prerequisite skill points the person spends to get a novice elite profession), and 620 Apprenticeship Points.
DE Side-Note:
At Master Droid-Engineer, all DEs would also get +1 Additional Droids under this plan. This gives and extra droid of ANY type (including combat) to DEs who earn master, and prevents dabbling in a DE tree just for the one extra droid.
The basic result of this is that a Master DE/Novice Droid Commander would be able to control TWO droids of any type(instead of onlyone like every other class), and a Master DE/Master Droid Commander would be able to control THREE droids (instead oftwo like every other class). This provides the DE class a nice droid advantage over every other class, without encouraging dabbling in our profession.
Comparison with CH for Balance:
CH Requirements to get a Level 35 pet:
Novice Scout: 15 Skill Points
Exploration and Hunting Trees: 28 Skill Points
Novice Creature Handler: 6 Skill Points
Two of the CH Trees for +36: 28 Skill Points
Total: 77 Skill Points
DC Requirements to get a Level 35 Droid:
Novice Elite Profession: Minimum of 29 Skill Points (using DE as an example)
Novice DC:10 Skill Points
Two DC Trees: 28 Skill Points
Master DC:5 Skill Points
Total:72 Skill Points
Message Edited by Daker-Naritus on 04-06-2004 11:36 AM
AudioOrgana
Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:09 pm
#2
5 stars for trying, Darker. 
Alas, I don't think I want to waste any more hours of my life doing Development work for a company that doesn't even want it done in the first place.
10 months of being spat at is enough for me.
AO
Kollos
Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:30 pm
#3
I like this, but like Audio I'm tired of doing the Devs' work for them only to have it shot down every time because they didn't tell us everything we needed to know.
EnigmaBSc
Tue Apr 06, 2004 6:52 am
#4
I like this idea, especially the special abilities. I do have a couple of concerns though.
1. Is a 70% damage increase (Overload 4) or a 45% HAM increase (Supercharge 3) going to be overpowered? I don't take part in much combat, so I don't know exactly how much of a benefit these would bring, but as raw numbers they sound a little high.
2. The positioning of the +x stored droids looks a little unbalanced to me. I can see good arguments for putting them in various different places. Spreading them between the two trees would probably balance the two trees better. Spreading them a little in the one tree (ie. +1 in Tac II and Tac III and +2 in Tac IV) would make dabbling a little more varied (as it is Tac II is an obvious stopping point). Leaving them where they are makes dabbling a more attractive prospect (which could well beA Good Thing™).
3. Will the devs be happy with a profession that has non-standard prerequisites? All other professions have a named prerequisite. Might be an idea to try and get TK to get an 'in-principle'response from the Devs on this so that we know if this is something that needs further consideration.
Also a question. When you say the battery is 'depleted'do you mean that it is completely depleted and will require replacing, or that it will just use more battery power than it would during normal operation? I think you mean the former, but clarification would be appreciated.
I can see your point of view on a 4-tree droid commander, but I think that at this juncture it is worth pursuing all ideas.
EnigmaBSc.
Daker-Naritus
Tue Apr 06, 2004 7:44 am
#5
EnigmaBSc wrote:
I like this idea, especially the special abilities. I do have a couple of concerns though.
1. Is a 70% damage increase (Overload 4) or a 45% HAM increase (Supercharge 3) going to be overpowered? I don't take part in much combat, so I don't know exactly how much of a benefit these would bring, but as raw numbers they sound a little high.
I think the original plan for this was kinda like spices...you get an extreme effect for a short while, followed by a downer.
With the 70% damage increase, think of it like a special move with a weapon... If I shoot with a flamethrower, it does about 1000 damage. If I shoot with the flame single 2 special, I do 8000-10000 damage (note: 800% to 1000% increase). However, if I use the special, it reduces my HAM and I have a longer delay on attacks. Another example....if I shoot a T-21 Rifle, it usually does 600-800 damage per hit. However, if I use mind shot 3, I get to shoot for 1200 to 2400 (note 200% to 400% increase) damage with a longer delay and a HAM cost.
The 70% damage increase is exactly the same, and is well below the % damage increases specials give...the droid gets to hit really hard for 5 attacks, but then will refuse to do anything until you recharge it. Also, since battles rarely last more than a minute, the 90 second timer keeps it from being unbalanced, because you cna only use it once per battle.
I will also note that pet damage, even with CL70 pets, is abysmal...usually less than 10% of the damage a player can do. A 70% increase isn't that big of a deal in that context...just a bonus.
As far as the 45% HAM increase, again think of it like spice. Moun Gold raises your Mind 500 (that is a 75% increase on my character) and increases your mind secondaries for fast regeneration and reduced special costs. Neutron Pixie increases your Health 1000 (100% increase on my character) and your Action 500 (50% increase on my character). These effects last 20 to 30 minutes, followed by a 5 minute downer.
The droid HAM effect would operate exactly the same....a 45% HAM increase for a couple of minutes, followed by the droid losing that ham and doing nothing until it is recharged.
The net effect of these specials should be well within the range of what the devs have deemed appropriate for the game, and are situational. By situational, I mean that there will be good times and bad times to use them.
2. The positioning of the +x stored droids looks a little unbalanced to me. I can see good arguments for putting them in various different places. Spreading them between the two trees would probably balance the two trees better. Spreading them a little in the one tree (ie. +1 in Tac II and Tac III and +2 in Tac IV) would make dabbling a little more varied (as it is Tac II is an obvious stopping point). Leaving them where they are makes dabbling a more attractive prospect (which could well beA Good Thing™).
I think I agree with this...let me take a look at it and I may change the proposal...
3. Will the devs be happy with a profession that has non-standard prerequisites? All other professions have a named prerequisite. Might be an idea to try and get TK to get an 'in-principle'response from the Devs on this so that we know if this is something that needs further consideration.
Personally, I think non-standard prerequisites is something we should shoot for. If you doit otherwise, you substantially limit the potential droid market.
The problem with standard prereqs is exactly the most recent argument some of us were having with the implementation of Sodan's plan...
One of the options Sodan presented was to make Ranged Support IV (marksman skill) a prereq. for combat droids. The brought rumblings from the brawlers about fairness. I think that many DEs also think that the prerequisite should not be DE, because it causes people to invade into our profession (and potentially market) to get combat droids. The question becomes....if you are going to have a set prerequisite, where do you put it? No matter where you put it, you are going to make it too easy to some (who already have the skill) and to hard for others (who don't have the skill or the skill points to learn it).
If you look at the proposal, there are 2 fixes to this problem... (1) Every elite profession serves as a prerequisite, making droids uniformly available to anyone who wants to invest the skill points in it and (2) *most importantly* there is a 10 skill point initial investment you have to make to become a DC. This is a really important part because all prerequisites are really just skill point sinks...the 10 skill point number is higher than that of all other elite professions (only 6 skill points required), and requires a greater investment than just learning an elite profession to get the combat droids.
The only information we have from the developers is that they expect us to spend extra skill points to get droids above CL10. The DCs in this proposal end up spending about the same number of skill points as "prerequisite" for CL30-35 droids. Additionally, in the star wars universe, droids seem to be available to everyone of all trades and professions.I hope the devs would at least consider it...
Also a question. When you say the battery is 'depleted'do you mean that it is completely depleted and will require replacing, or that it will just use more battery power than it would during normal operation? I think you mean the former, but clarification would be appreciated.
I mean the battery is totally depleted and the person will have to use a droid battery to recharge the power meter to full strength. Currently droids have a non-vibible power meter...the droid runs until it has no more power, and then it flashes *LOW POWER* and will refuse to attack until it is recharged. I am saying that the droid will go to the *LOW POWER* state at the end of the "special move" and would have to be recharged before it would attack again.
Daker-Naritus
Tue Apr 06, 2004 7:46 am
#6
EnigmaBSc wrote:
EnigmaBSc.
Oh and for the record...I never one-star people unless I catch them one-starring my posts without some good reason.
It appears my one-star stalker is back and you got caught in the crossfire 
Message Edited by Daker-Naritus on 04-06-2004 09:48 AM
overbyte
Tue Apr 06, 2004 9:24 am
#7
haha - the 1-star bandit strikes again (no it wasn't me)i like the proposal and it should be easier to implement than the 4 branch one.
Truth be told i'll be happy, however they do cl10+ droids
Daker-Naritus
Tue Apr 06, 2004 9:35 am
#8
Note: I revised the + stored droids mods to balance it in the trees a bit more...
Daker-Naritus
Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:05 am
#9
Do you guys think we should start the discussion on where to go from here with a vote regarding whether we want to support a 2-tree or 4-tree proposal?
EnigmaBSc
Wed Apr 07, 2004 9:35 am
#10
If I'm correct in my understanding that there is no way we're going to get a droid handler/commander profession in until after the Space Expansion they I think we should spend at least a full month raking over all the available proposals before trying to decide which one we prefer.
I intend to post some more feedback/suggestions on your idea later today or tomorrow.
EnigmaBSc
Daker-Naritus
Wed Apr 07, 2004 9:53 am
#11
Oh, another comment....
I am not set in stone, by any means, on the specials I proposed within the 2 DC trees...these are merely the specials suggestions Drashk had that I adopted tweaked a little bit.
I will entertain any suggestions that you have for additional/better specials for droids if you don't like these...
EnigmaBSc
Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:29 am
#12
I like the specials you've suggested so far. Only problem is that I reallylike some of the suggestions from Deloo's proposal as well, namely the EMP Weapon, Systems Jamming Device and Virus ideas. Is there any way these could be worked into your proposal? Perhaps if you removed one of the supercharge/overload specials?
Deloo also has droid rebuild kit certifications in his proposal. There's certainly a discussion to be had here. It sounds a little harsh to have Droid Commanders dependant on Droid Engineers in order to rebuild their droids and this may encourage intrusion into Droid Engineer (not that this is necessarily a bad thing). I can see arguments for doing things both ways, so it would be good to get a community concensus on this issue.
Another issue is requiring 620 apprenticeship points for a profession that won't earn you 620 apprenticeship points to teach the whole of. Is thisa number that we need to take a look at and discuss?
I'm also quite fond of being able to program droids. This is an idea I would classify as the 'would-be-extremely-cool-but-is-unlikely-to-ever-happen' variety. I've posted about it in Deloo's proposal thread as well, but basically I'd love to be able to give my droids a program such as:
if: owner.health < 200 and target.range < 25
then: overload
See Deloo's thread for slightly extended thoughts from me on this issue.
EnigmaBSc
Glantor
Sat Apr 10, 2004 9:36 am
#13
Of all the two-tree proposals I've seen, I think yours is the most comprehensive and possibly the best. Especially the advantage MDEs will get, lol.
I hope everyone who did the two-tree concept can gather their thoughts and work out a nice solution. Not too complicated to the point where devs will find it impossible to implement, and well devised enough to iron out the risk of unbalancing combat.
To attain novice droid commander, perhaps folks would have to invest in a single tree in DE and marksman ranged support.
An additional skill to the droid commander would be to make droids mountable. A droid tank which fires one cannon normally, and one cannon and one player controlled turrent when mounted. They can attack the same target, or attack different targets. Problem is balancing the damage the turret does, since it gives free checkers to folks without ranged combat. Perhaps only droid commanders can mount them, hehe. Or remove the turret concept altogether and just let folks fire away from the droid. Damage taken should be shared, although this is not a very important point.
Page 1 of 1