Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Improved !!! Revised,Alternate New Combined DC/DE Hybrid Answer.
The (new) Plan
Two branches of DE tree form the 'DC' 'Mini Profession'.
(These are 'superimposed' on the most appropriate DE branches)
Skill Box(S) |Skill Points| Max Level| Max Stored| Max Out |
|| Base 10|Base 5|Base 1|
Novice DE |35| +7 [17]|+2(7)|+1 { 2 }|
'DC' 1 Box(S)|+5+5/45 |+3+3 [23]|+2(9)|{ 2 } |
'DC' 2 Box(S)|+4+4 /53 |+3+3 [29]| +2(11)|{ 2 } |
'DC' 3 Box(S)| +3+3 /59|+2+2[33]|+2(13)|{ 2 } |
'DC' 4 Box(S)|+2+2/63|+1+1 [35]*| +2(15) |{ 2 } |
Master DE |+29 / 92| +12 [47] | +3(18)| + 1 { 3 }|
Master Artisan 77|+12[59]| +3(8)| + 1 |
Maximum Cert140|[59]| ( 21 ) |{ 4 } |
Crafter 'Friiendly' (crafter skillpoints do not have any 'combat power' for this to stack on).
Flexible
Message Edited by Boeda on 03-08-2004 08:55 PM
Message Edited by Boeda on 03-09-2004 03:45 PM
Message Edited by Boeda on 03-10-2004 10:12 AM
With this structure players would be discouraged from 'dabbling' versus maxing out the # of droids out and droid CLs. The problem of new DE's coming and flooding the market, or just building thier own droids is even more pronounced here.
Narrowing where the bonuses would come from might help, I'm not sure how it's an improvement over the revised hybrid DE proposal.
PS: That table's really hard to read.
I don't mean to sound paranoid here, but wouldn't it be better to focus on ONE of these proposals? I'm not saying any one is "wrong", but differing proposals being proposed might make the DE community appear fragmented in the minds of the devs.
They can shoot them down saying "We can't really focus on any of the proposals because it appears the DE community has not reached an agreement. We'll go back to fixing other things for six months, while Thunderheart tries to find "transparent" in the Droid Customization kit. He can't figure out how to make an R2 with a clear dome yet."
Mightion wrote:
I don't mean to sound paranoid here, but wouldn't it be better to focus on ONE of these proposals? I'm not saying any one is "wrong", but differing proposals being proposed might make the DE community appear fragmented in the minds of the devs.
They can shoot them down saying "We can't really focus on any of the proposals because it appears the DE community has not reached an agreement. We'll go back to fixing other things for six months, while Thunderheart tries to find "transparent" in the Droid Customization kit. He can't figure out how to make an R2 with a clear dome yet."
The hybrid plan has recieved substantial community support -- if we all speak with one voice about it, it is much more likely to get approved. I am here making an appeal for unity on the revised hybrid plan. Let get behind that one so we can have player created and player used combat droids in the game ina manner that is acceptable to the devs.
I am not trying to silence dissent. There will always be dissent. I just think its best if we get behind the Hybrid Plan.
>Personally, I don't like this variation because it encourages taking up more DE skills and the maximum power is from Mastering Artisan and Master DE.<
Well With the max droid level equal to the max dabble cert. You certainly wouldnt be getting more combat power from your skillpoints to get master DE or Master Arts.
People can argue, but two branches can be chosen/made so that those with those branches only will not be competitive droid builders. And those with 3 or more branches to build them selves a combat droid could be tolerated. I expect master DEs will be needed to make the best droids.
>With this structure players would be discouraged from 'dabbling' versus maxing out the # of droids out and droid CLs. The problem of new DE's coming and flooding the market, or just building thier own droids is even more pronounced here.<
The plan is not perfect. But I dont see those problems if you understand it. With max droid at 45. A dabbler could have a lev 45 combat droid. A Master DE/Arts for, 92 more skillpoints could add another lev 14 droid out. This could certainly be handy but not worth the 92 skillpoints to a combat oriented player.
But I do thingk any really good answer must include a way that non DEs can get maxt total cert without being forced to take silly MA and MDE. AS well as be included for those who do have Master arts/DE.
I see this plan as an early solution to be added to with some further Mini tree or some such, for the masses to add instead of MA/MDE. With a cert cap to limit stacking.
Then master Artisans can get full cert without un used DE skills, Master DE without unused Arts skills. And others without either. While at the same time dedicated DEs have it already.
Maby im dreaming but trying to accomplish these ggoals:
1.Master DE/arts Has full cert already.
2. Others interested in full cert can do so without too much 'mickey mouse'.
3. Cert is substantial. Maby not quite as hardy as the CH cert but close. Or just as big, be fine too. 140 skillpoints is enough, for total cert.
>Narrowing where the bonuses would come from might help, I'm not sure how it's an improvement over the revised hybrid DE proposal.<
I see how non crafters would not be crazy about those. I suggest alternative sprces for the certs. Those boxes (in which the perk should actually be increased and the branches decreased) are manly to raise the skill cost to justify the power.
Any plan for out of DE cert could be robbed for a way to provide alternatives to master arts/DE for those who arnt 'crafty'.
>PS: That table's really hard to read.<
The size ? or colors ? I cant make it any bigger without wrapping. cant change font without shearing.
>The hybrid plan has recieved substantial community support -- if we all speak with one voice about it, it is much more likely to get approved. I am here making an appeal for unity on the revised hybrid plan. Let get behind that one so we can have player created and player used combat droids in the game ina manner that is acceptable to the devs. <
I dont think further Ideas are unhealthy. I think its important to push the best idea(s) we can.
What we Dont !, want to do is vote against one plan (unless we dont like it at all) because we prefer another.
I can see the problem with the master box perks. I am trying to keep them for a stronger cert. I want proximity to CH power. I se my plan as a first step to a total goal. Alternate routes for non crafters are nessisary for, this to end up just right.
Either of our plans as a first step, would further the cause from where it is now. Advantages from both plans, could be combined, by us, or, by the devs, independantly.
Your plan could add a column. an arts perk/ or alternate qualifyer could be ranged 4 OR master arts.
Mine could add a ranged 4 for perk or change the perk boxes to qualifyers. My only reasion for choosing 'perks' over 'qualifyers', was the thought that perks might be easyer to code.
Another concern is adding combat 'checkers' to combat skills.
Another thought is the sprinkling of qualifyers. My main worry with yours is being forced to ranged over Brawl, or CH, or whatever. But when thinking od adding alternative 'qualifyer' boxes. If you choose enough you will eventually make it so that any existing char already qualifies from skills they have already, incidentely. Making the ramp virtually 'free'
My goals are to provide strong cert to existing DEs. Make a way for non DEs to reach the same power. (I actually am Not so threatened by the idea of just plastering it all over DE and Master arts like CH. I think the combat DEs and the Crafting DEs and the Hybrid DEs would remain distinct enough. But I see the concern and would like to avoid it) I think we must be carefull to avoid being a top combat class to avoid herding. But being 'competitive' is important to me,
To accomplish strong I use the master arts box for skillpoint cost. To accomodate non DEs the only complete way i can think of is to add a new/mini proffession.
Maby a 4 branch 'handlers Ed.' with a dummy master box. Two branches of stackable DH, and two of CH to add to entertainer in line creature certs. Or somthing. I know,, is illy, Im stymied.
I would beaccept a totally hybrid DE. I would beaccept a total new DC profession. I would accept your idea (i'd like a stronger total cert) I would way rather have any of them, than some vague hope for somthing in the undetermined future.
Id like a stronger cert. Id like to avoid requiring the Ranged 4 box. But I would gladly accept those over nothing. And hope for futher love as time goes on.
In any case I do not fear throwing more ideas on the table. I cannot think of a perfect answer. Maby the Devs can take all our ideas and assemble them better than we have. I hope they are even looking at them.
I do think I would rather have a DC profession already, than all this worry and wait we have now. But if we got a good hybrid solution in patch 8 would be worth the wait maby.
I think its important to get to the devs, the idea some how (I dont think we can really count on TH for this) That We Do, want combat droids !, Enough for a DC profession, if we must, or for an imperfect Hybrid DE if that be the way.
The more I think about this, The problems, the more I see why DC was offered. Maby a stackable capped DC proffession AND Hybrid DE certs are the way to universal joy, here.
Lonkley wrote:
you dont address the checker issue at all.
Devs have clearly stated more Skill Points must be required in order to use combat droids. This just gives DE's combat ability, and as such is likely dead in the water. Please back the commuity plan, which addresses each of the developers concerns.
Read, My, Sig !
And putting a bit in ranged 4 does not alter the 'checker situation' much either. And not in the right direction. (though I do not see a problem there)
The only thing that would solve your checker problem in whole new DC profession. Checkers are in the mind of the beholder.
Message Edited by Boeda on 03-09-2004 05:17 PM
Boeda wrote:
Lonkley wrote:
you dont address the checker issue at all.
Devs have clearly stated more Skill Points must be required in order to use combat droids. This just gives DE's combat ability, and as such is likely dead in the water. Please back the commuity plan, which addresses each of the developers concerns.
Read, My, Sig !
And putting a bit in ranged 4 does not alter the 'checker situation' much either. And not in the right direction. (though I do not see a problem there)
The only thing that would solve your checker problem in whole new DC profession. Checkers are in the mind of the beholder.
Yeah, read my sig. Its hardly my problem. Just because you dont like the requirement, doesnt mean you can ignore it. TheDev's have been quite clear a skill point investment is required. Ranged Support is 29 skill points, and for the combatants gettingDE is 39 points. A very clear expenditure of points. The beauty of Sodan's plan is it answer the skill point cost without a DC profession.
Ok, read my Edit. (g)
But the 'skill cost' of ramp skills, is very ambigous. To aPistoleer wanting Droids Ranged 4 is free. To a DE Chef, costs 29 points. (pistoleer gets the skillpoint benifit out of the ranged branch already)
To a Commando, the Polearms branch of Brawler is doing them NO good. Every point of cost must be justified in the Comando perks, for balance. To a Pikeman, probly different.
[nuther edit] And Im Not, trying to kill Sodan's plan. Just trying to suggest an alternative. That if its not preferable, maby it has facets to add to Sodan's. If its not the DEs choice, maby it will still be somthing the Devs could accept, if they couldnt accept Sodan's. A vote for this plan, is not a vote agianst Sodan's. These crazy off the master box cert plans thart I dont like may be the way to balance My plan for non DEs.
Im not Fighting Sodan's plan. Im sugggesting alternative. I would much rather have his plan, than none, or a worse plan. I see problems with both plans. Niether is perfect to me.
My plan is so far a little checker heavy in the branches. If I shift that it makes it hard to dabble. No matter what I do, its not optimal for non master artisan/DEs.
Sodan's Total cert is too light for my taste. The ranged 4 is not so good for non ranged types. And its checker check is not really so assured.
Im groping, hoping, but Im, Not Fighting Sodan.
Message Edited by Boeda on 03-09-2004 05:45 PM
'The Answer' before this was mainly the idea of distributing bits in Master Arts, and Master DE, with one column, in DE as the 'DC' branch.
I filled the numbers hastily, and was only really concerned that the total 140 point cost was greater than CH.
After further thought I saw that the cert gained from going up that branch was much greater than equivelelant points in CH. That and the Idea that non DEs might feel foriegn to the idea of a mini cert. They might want a fuller cert without messing with Master arts and master DE.
Hence this new mutation.
This uses two branches of DE to give a more CH like cost before the distributed bits.
This suggests capping max droid level at the dabbleable branch maximum. So that Non Artisans/DEs can use the Best droid avaiable. (the Arts/DE perks would allow addtional droid(s) out. A max combat and other lessor droid(s))
