CUEmu - Thread Posts

AudioOrgana

Sun Apr 11, 2004 9:36 am

TheRealTK421 wrote:

I'm also working a bit with JustG to start some kind of DE / Dev reconciliation program (appropriate especially today, of all days). It just can't happen in the blink of an eye...that's all.

Yes it can.

The Devs can choose to be open and honest with us, or they can choose continued silence.

It's all so very, very simple. It is a double edged sword - but the Devs forge the blade.

They are in control - give us accurate, informative communication, or continue not to.

There does not need to be a "reconciliation" - that would imply a partnership that has some sort of equal footing - we have zero power in this situation.

If you don't feed a dog, it tends to bark at you. Feed the dog, and he will stop barking.

1+1=2.

AO

Jnath

Sun Apr 11, 2004 10:00 am

#2

Shian_Tavkin wrote:

Caix

Much as I respect your opinion - it is only your opinion

Really, I must restate it, I want the Devs, just for once, to step in here and explain balance to us all. Tell us why Sodans proposal was not balanced - exactly why. It's a bit like a funeral I suppose, you have a fixed point to cut off the old and renew..hopefully with some new understanding.

So, thanks for the quote..but it isn't enough. Blood, sweat and tears went into that proposal from most of the community..it's just not good enough to say 'nope..its not balanced' and leave it at that.

Especially so because all and sundry have their own opinion on why it wasn't balanced, based on their own agendas

We none of us know the truth..I would have thought even the Devs might have a soft spot somewhere and see that communicating what they believe balance is - is not just a DE thing, it would be of value to the whole SWG community. Think how it would focus and steer future proposals in ALL professions if we knew for a fact what balance actually IS.

If they cared enough, they would post the answer.

Shian, dont you know the devs want you to find the answer within yourself...=P Actually i wonder if THEY know what balance means. How hard is it to come explain it to us? They could even cite examples from Sodan's proposal to make it easier to understand in context.

TK, you wrote:

If I get them to post something on this, it will never end, Shian. They will make a point and DEs will ask for more info (to try and workaround whatever issue the Devs state). It's a never-ending cycle. In this case, I seriously believe that it's easier to simply accept that they are basically saying...

"No, this won't balance properly."...and leave it at that. I know you're gonna jump down my throat for that but it's true.

All i ask is to be given the optunity to learn what balance means in order to facilitate future plans for this profession. Keeping us in the dark on this cripples our ability to generate ideas.

And i refuse to lay down and accept any of their PR ***selfedit***. We want a dialog with them not cookie cutter answers from an overglorified, overqualified, tho prolly underpaid CSR. I want to know, and they can do whatever they want, be as silent as they want. Iwill NOT be posting a farewell thread, i will be right here waiting for them to wake up.

Message Edited by Jnath on 04-11-2004 01:13 PM

Jenar
Master Droid Engineer
Director - Cabal of the Toothy Maw
Cult of Sarlacc (Starsider)

"It's the accumulation of small pinpricks over time that causes one to bleed to death" -- Shian Tavkin, Master Droid Engineer/Master Artisan

AudioOrgana

Sun Apr 11, 2004 10:34 am

#3

Jnath wrote:

All i ask is to be given the optunity to learn what balance means in order to facilitate future plans for this profession. Keeping us in the dark on this cripples our ability to generate ideas.

Percisely.

How many "new" combat proposals have sprung up? Are we supposed to endlessly debate them...AGAIN...when the end result will likely be what it was with this one, "sorry, unbalanced."

That's like telling someone that you want them to go to the market and get you "some groceries" - and every time they bring you a bag you send them back because you didn't get what you wanted.

It's a fool's errand if you don't give someone a list of criteria with which the needs can be met, or at least tell them what was wrong with what they have worked so hard to gather before sending them out to do it all over again.

AO

Shian_Tavkin

Sun Apr 11, 2004 1:21 pm

#4

TheRealTK421 wrote:

Shian_Tavkin wrote:

Caix, we have NEVER had an answer on thisfrom a Dev....

If I get them to post something on this, it will never end, Shian. They will make a point and DEs will ask for more info (to try and workaround whatever issue the Devs state). It's a never-ending cycle. In this case, I seriously believe that it's easier to simply accept that they are basically saying...

"No, this won't balance properly."...and leave it at that. I know you're gonna jump down my throat for that but it's true.

I mean, think about it. If I get them to post something, will YOU leave this issue alone? Just imagine how many DEs will keep on reviving this issue over and over ad nauseum. We need to move forward on some things, Shian. Let a dead horse be for once, we must....

Anyone who can argue that we are in any way 'a fully developed crafting class' does not understand the crux of the problem with DE, and certainly does not play one.

Are we "fully developed"? Perhaps not. However, adding in the Hybrid stuff would have likely meant that we got NO more crafting changes additions. If it was already unbalanced, how could they have added either more crafting stuff or more combat stuff without having it be even further unbalanced down the line?

This is a no-win situation, Shian.

If we'd have gotten Hybrid as we asked for, we likely would have had a watered down version of a crafting profession grafted to a watered down version of a combat role. In both cases, we'd all be unhappy with our situation and have NO way to move forward (other than undoing the changes that got us watered down to begin with...).

We are broken as a class, have always been broken, do not equate with any other crafting class in terms of our goods being 'needed' (or even being wanted by the masses) and are therefore at best 'an underdeveloped crafting class'

"Need" is based on a player's playstyle et al. If I happen to be a 'pure' crafter/merchant person, I don't "need" a gun or weapon. Do I?

No.

I wouldn't need armor or Chef food or a myriad of other things. So, there's no "need" for certain types of products in the game, depending on how you choose to play.

A lot of people don't like to face that....but it's true. I know it doesn't make life easier for us, it just means we need more focus to have products that are more attractive to a wider variety of players. And....we will be getting these in Publish 8 (and beyond).

So, thanks for the use of your dictionary, but it really doesn't address the overall problem which is, as always with this Dev team, a communication problem.

Well, I'm doing what I can to make this better. I just don't think they could communicate these issues to the DEs at large in a way that would put this matter to bed.

If you can think of something that would allow for that, I'd love to hear how. In my estimation, if they posted info on this, it would revive a dead horse (that will always remain dead) and simply cause a recycling of frustration and animous. What we need to do is move forward (with whatever items rise to the top when Publish 8 hits).

They know how to code, they just dont have the foggiest idea on how to manage customer expectations, and they do not understand the need for free flowing communications.

They are getting better though. The fact that they posted the proposed Crafting Experimentation changes to the forum community first, to gauge reaction and getfeedback, is an example of this. On larger/major changes, I expect they will do this sort of thing in the future.

I'm also working a bit with JustG to start some kind of DE / Dev reconciliation program (appropriate especially today, of all days). It just can't happen in the blink of an eye...that's all.

/bow

Respectfully,

Look TK I know its hard for you, but just suppose for a moment I HAVE accepted that the Hybrid is dead - OK?

Now re-read my post again, knowing that.

Hmm, so I ask for clarification on what wasn't balanced NOT so I can try to breath life into a dead horse, but so that I and my few remaining colleagues might have a fighting chance to aid future developments by knowing the parameters.

Certainly I might not leave their comments as if they are holy objects handed down from the mountain, I might well think some of what they say would be worthy of debate, even if its among ourselves. Will I hound them on Sodan's proposal? No.

Moving on to your comments about need. If you were a pure crafter / merchant wpuld you need a gun ypu ask? Well, perhaps not unless you actually went out to harvest from time to time, but thats not my point. My point is that in order to get at any of even the most basic content from this game yes...you do need a gun, and some armour too more than likely. I'd like to see you do Jabbas Palace without either (barring the ludicrous Kung Fu aka TK 'profession'). All that aside, you are basing your entire faith on the Pub 8 content which you refuse to divulge, and meantime DEs are dropping like flies.

I hope you are right, I hope Pub 8 is finally something good for us, but you will have to forgive a healthy scepticism on my part...still we shall see.

As to the 'dev reconciliation problem', there are precious few of us left to be reconciled with..but good luck nonetheless. It merely takes a bit of honestly on their part, and to stop hiding the truth from us behind these totally artificial barriers of their own making. That, and to stop the confusion (maybe deliberate mis-information) like calling Pub 7 a Droid Invasion when they really meant a one off event and a new 'dungeon' (PS please ask them not to call them dungeons, this isn't Swords and Scorcery..well not quite yet).

There would be no need for a reconciliation if they would show some testosterone now and again, they are too wishy-washy by far (and yes I know they were screwed over by the suits and forced to release early). The old excuse of mounts and player cities eating up all the time is long past it's sell by date, and so what we need to see is action. Action on bugs, Action on profession content and Action on Communication. 10 months into a game and you say 'they are getting better' Hmm well getting better is relative isn't it? Starting from bloody awful there are a lot of steps before they become even reasonable, never mind acceptable. I don't ever expect to see 'good' in my lifetime. Maybe they will surprise me.

So there you go. Like it or not I think it would be helpful for the future to know what balance issues were trodden on, and not for ressurection purposes.

/salute

Shian -- Master Droid Engineer/ Master Artisan

Shian_Tavkin

Mon Apr 12, 2004 12:30 am

#5

AudioOrgana wrote:

Jnath wrote:

All i ask is to be given the optunity to learn what balance means in order to facilitate future plans for this profession. Keeping us in the dark on this cripples our ability to generate ideas.

Percisely.

How many "new" combat proposals have sprung up? Are we supposed to endlessly debate them...AGAIN...when the end result will likely be what it was with this one, "sorry, unbalanced."

That's like telling someone that you want them to go to the market and get you "some groceries" - and every time they bring you a bag you send them back because you didn't get what you wanted.

It's a fool's errand if you don't give someone a list of criteria with which the needs can be met, or at least tell them what was wrong with what they have worked so hard to gather before sending them out to do it all over again.

AO

Exactemundo !!

Without a definition we are, as we have been for 10 months at least, whistling in the dark.

Shian -- Master Droid Engineer/ Master Artisan

Kilarny

Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:55 am

#6

Shian and AO are absolutely correct.

Kilarny

Mon Apr 12, 2004 8:17 am

#7

/bump again

Trebjorn

Mon Apr 12, 2004 1:37 pm

#8

All we have to do is look at a few other professions to understand how we really took it on this one. Let's look at the parts to the Droid Invasion 'series' that were successful... and perhaps that will illustrate WHY I personally feel DE is presently a waste of 60+ skill points that I could use elsewhere.

Example #1... The Chef profession... I personally think they did a great job broadening and making THAT profession what it was always supposed to be.Also, because they require Bio-Engineer enhancements, you go TWO professions DANCING with glee all over SWG. And their customers are certainly a happy bunch aren't they? There were benefits to nearly every class and function - the economy was strengthened, crafting was strengthened, COMBAT was strengthened ... and I really haven't heard a bunch of whining how lame THAT part of the Droid Invasion series went. Well Smuggling took a hit but they still sell spices... just not for insane amounts.

Example #2... Two new mounts... Banthas and Cu Pu. Yes, children, the true GOD profession of SWG got another little benefit snuck in there while they were SUPPOSED to be fixing the hopeless, hapless, hamstrung, and heartbroken DE profession.

Seems like the Development team CAN get it right - CAN benefit everyone without evoking the 'balance' excuse - and CAN do it without a huge wrangling debate that stretches forever. My opinion: The debate is only present because DE is hopeless as it stands. If they had given us a fraction of what DE COULD be we would have been happy and shut up.... or the WHINE level would have faded considerably.

This starts with the very NAME ... is it me or when you hear the works 'Droid Invasion' do you envision R2-D2 with a CDEF duct-taped to his manipulator arm?? NO new chassis schematics? THAT is the idea of a droid invasion?

Perhaps the new players ARE happy with having a combat droid ANY combat droid - but since I have been playing for a long time I went right to the Genosian Bio Lab when it showed up --- care to imagine how long a CL10 droid would last in there? Can you imagine anyone who plays at that level being remotely INTERESTED in what we can craft? Now, same group ... Care to guesshow many of the conversations have "Got enough brandy" in them?

We want to generate useful products that benefit all levels of play - beginner and advanced.

We want to create a variety of shells that improve the look of the game.

We want to be able to store and call more droids than NON DE's can.

I can go on... but you have all understood and seen these hundreds of times. This is a small representative sample of the sorts of realistic concerns that were not addressed AT ALL. When I saw the Chef revamp I was estatic and hopeful that WE would get similar treatment. Alas. I am pretty sure 'Attack of the 50 foot Lizards' isn't anyones idea of what SWG should be... everyone wants more droids if you ask them. The only truly useful combat'Droid' is an AT-ST faction pet... but man watching about 5 of those go at it is a sight to see.

How many of you are saying to yourself 'I will wait and see and if I don't like it I will DROP DE...?' How annoyed to you have to be to even CONTEMPLATE throwing away THAT much hard work. There are perhaps tougher grinds out there, but it is a short list! Folks I've done all the crafts ... ALL of them.. but my MAIN character has held DE through it all cause I really, really, really wanted to make droids. I knew it was lame when I started - but I did all that work ANYWAY - for the HOPE that it would change... I have beenstubbornly unrealisticallydreaming of the day when...

Am I alone or is what has happened a truly bitter pill to take?

So Ihate to say this, but, publish 8 is set and they aren't gonna rework it in the MAJOR way it needs. Look at the good news - that character of yours now has 60+ skill points to use on something FUN. Perhaps if they see a mass exodus they'll get the picture... all this talking certainly hasn't done us any good.

No more talking, I'm walking...I'd say it's been great - but it hasn't

Zatt Canto

Scylla

Master Artisan, Architect, Droid Engineer, Merchant 3-4-1-2

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Zatt Canto (Scylla, Dantooine -3350, -2300)
Master Architect, Master Artisan, Master Droid Engineer

Trebjorn

Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:23 am

#9

Oh for the love of....

Just when you think you got these guys figured out ... If you haven't looked, check the Publish eight notes -

http://starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/recent_test_updates.jsp?page=In%20Testing

I guess I just might keep DE after all! --- Zatt

Quote:

Profession: Droid Engineer

Added an Interplanetary Survey Droid - This droid is capable of using survey tools and traveling to other planets to report on the resources present on that planet.

Added Merchant Barker Module to the DE skill tree: This module allows for the owner to input a short message that is continuously transmitted to nearby players. It also allows him or her to place a waypoint in the droid that is given to any player that requests it via the radial menu on the droid.

Added Structure Maintenance Module to the DE skill tree: This module will allow a player to pay maintenance on structures they own from a remote location.

Added Auto Droid Repair Module to the DE skill tree: When this module is activated, it sends out a "healing pulse" which repairs every other nearby friendly droid within a 15' radius. The pulse fires every 10 seconds and heals an amount equal to the droid's Auto Repair Power. The more auto-repair modules that are added to a droid, the higher this attribute will be

Added Stimpack Dispenser Module to the DE skill tree: This skill allows a player with Pharmacology IV to load up a properly equipped droid with Stimpack A's. Once loaded, any player within the droid master's group may issue a /requestStimpack command to receive healing.

Added Musician Playback Module to the DE skill tree: This module allows an entertainer or a musician to record a musical track onto the droid. The droid will then be able to play back the music that was recorded as accompaniment in the player's band. Multiple modules of this type will stack and allow multiple musical tracks to be recorded, although only one track can be played at a time

Added Entertainer Lighting Effects Module to the DE skill tree: These droid modules can have up to 5 unique lighting effects that can be used by dancers and musicians.

Added Scout Trap Module to the DE skill tree: This module will allow any player with the novice scout ability to program and arm a droid with player made scout traps which will then fire when given the command by the player.

Added Creature Harvester Module to the DE skill tree: This module will allow any character with the Novice Scout ability to program and control an equipped droid to advance on the look-at target of the player and harvest the resources on the creature. The player can preset the droid to harvest one of the three types: meat, hide or bone. Or the player can just let the droid pick a random resource type.

Added Detonation Module to the DE skill tree: This module grants Bounty Hunters and Smugglers the ability to destroy his droid causing damage to every enemy target nearby. The destruction is ordered by the /detonateDroid command or via the droid's radial menu.

Droid deeds now have the appearance of the droids they represent and are customizable. The customization will carry over to the droid pet when generated. (Correspondent Issue)

Fixed Droidsmith Tool Belt schematic to use the proper item in the Tool Set slot

Fixed a problem with installed modules not displaying properly when examining droid deeds and control devices. (Correspondent Issue)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Zatt Canto (Scylla, Dantooine -3350, -2300)
Master Architect, Master Artisan, Master Droid Engineer

Droid Engineer Archive

Thread: The developers have moved on. All we wanted...