Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: (Unofficial)Discussion: Hand-crafting vs. Factory-crafting brainstorm ideas
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Jjiaah
Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:35 am
#1
While sifting through the official thread I've seen several interesting ideas, some viable some outrageous but all "good", that would make the world of hand-crafting vs factory-crafting more interesting and competitive.
Unfortunately, due to the length of the thread andseries of digressions I decided to start a new thread purely based on ideas relating to the official thread.
If you have an idea that got lost in the shuffle, or one that you saw that bears repeating, please post it here.
This thread is ONLY for ideas to give hand-crafting a leg-up over factory-crafting without rendering factory-crafting a total nerf.
PLEASE keep this thread free of flames, taunts, and disrespect. No idea is truely a bad one, and this isn't an "official" thread anyways.
While I did see several ideas come through as I was burning through the official original post, I am not going to include any other than my own for risk of offending someone by leaving theirs out.
TAKEN FROM ORIGINAL POST MESSAGE:
TheRealTK421 wrote:
- We need a way to ensure that the "best" in the game can't be simply be thrown up en masse to a vendor.
- We need a way to ensure that there's an actual 'rares' market that has some kind of value or meaning.
- We need a way to provide some decision or tradeoff on the part of both the crafter and his/her client.
- This change (done right/well) would make the crafting game a lot more dynamic and interesting...hopefully.
- There are no bad ideas, viewpoints or opinions (just make sure to be nice and respect the other peeps issues).
Note: Right now, this is all just talk. There are no official plans to do this or make any such change. It is simply something that came up between the crafting Corrs. at the SWG Summit. We'd like to hash this issue out and see if there's merit to it and if it can be done in a way that 'balances' correctly.
So lets do it =)
My idea:
I feel that a decent idea would be loot incentives, specifically "charged" schematics thatare relatively common (can drop off of newb npcs, attainable via a long but repeatable low-midrange quest <some of us have zero combat skills>, or purchased from an NPC vendor), that can ONLY be used in hand-crafting situations,like other current "charged" schematics. Perhaps a schematic that will allow for 6 enhanced combat modules to be made, but only by hand-crafting. Or a harvest mod that will increase the yield. Doc mods that hit a 120% - 130% range. Entertainer mods with new effects and so on. I believe schematics with limited charges are the way to go over straight looted items, unless reverse engineering is possible. "Charged" schematics would give us the flexibility, and rares will be a sought after item without hurting the factory crafters.
ArveMennderchukk
Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:04 am
#2
If you had gone to the end of that thread (a chore, I know), you would have noted that loot-based components/schematics crafting (similar to armorsmiths/weaponsmiths) seemed to be the emerging non-contentious concensus.
So I don't think (*fingers crossed*) that your suggestion is off-base, with one caveat.
I don't think you need to limit the loot to only be used by hand-crafting.
If you make the limited run of serials small enough (like it is for weapons and such), the components necessary to make a single schematic work are so small that even a maximum drop of same serials would produce a factory run (post schematic generation) of 2 or 3 items at most. At that point it basically is just handcrafting. Because the mechanic prevents thousand strong runs, whether someone chooses to actually tinker the thing out by hand for 3 units or make a schematic and run 2 units should be moot, right?
So I don't think (*fingers crossed*) that your suggestion is off-base, with one caveat.
I don't think you need to limit the loot to only be used by hand-crafting.
If you make the limited run of serials small enough (like it is for weapons and such), the components necessary to make a single schematic work are so small that even a maximum drop of same serials would produce a factory run (post schematic generation) of 2 or 3 items at most. At that point it basically is just handcrafting. Because the mechanic prevents thousand strong runs, whether someone chooses to actually tinker the thing out by hand for 3 units or make a schematic and run 2 units should be moot, right?
Malitevv
Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:23 am
#3
people need to be very careful about what they mean by this and about the consequenceso their proposals.
For example, if the benefit of one of these loot items was that you could make a 120% medical module, then the thing would have to be so exceedingly rare that most players never see it. medical droids are not a consumabe item. they are a "buy once and never buy again" item, and for that sort of item, no player will ever buy a 110% medical droid if it's possible to loot an item that gives a 120% medical rating bonus off a low level NPC.
I'm not against the idea of specialenhancement boxes on more of the items in all professions and then having special loot items that go into those boxes to provide smallbonusesor unique features. But I think peopleneed to be realistic about what the affects of such changes are. for non-consumables, it's very easy to kill the market for the non-enhanced version of the item completely if this is done poorly. it's possible to kill the market for the non-enhanced version of consumables even if the items aren't consumed "quickly". a loot item that grants the ability to do a 120% or 130% medical rating is an example of the sort of thing that would kill the market for the non-enhanced version of the item completely.
On to suggestions. I would prefer that the loot items be crafting reweards. If they are combat rewards, then the non-crafting professions would have the majority of these items, would offer them up for sale on vendors, and then the rich crafters would go out to buy them and thereby drive up the price of these loot items (the ones worth having anyway) to the point were non-rich crafters would not be able to afford them. The rich buying the loot items from the poor and driving up their pricesis likely to happen no matter what if the items are tradable at all, but if the items are combat rewards, it just makes that price inflation issue worse, IMO.
I think that if loot items for this sort of thing are introduced, they should be a new kind of"crafting loot" items. They should be rewards that come directly as a result of crafting. Here is what I propose in that respect:
- certain schematics are marked as having some probability ofgranting "crafting enhancers" to the crafter when the schematic is hand crafted. could be all schematics, but doesn't have to be, and the probability could vary from schematic to schematic (e.g., could be very low or zero probability when crafting say a droid sensor package, but could be higher probabilitywhen crafting say, a completed Advanced R3 droid).
- one sub-idea of this idea that I have is the following: have this "crafting enhancer" be a credit that is incremented on the character; something like XP rather than be an item. this way, it won't clutter the inventory, and won't be tradable/sellable. instead of getting a special item in your inventory when you are granted a "crafting enhancer", you just get a system message saying "you have received N craft enhancement credits for the successful completion of this item" and then some counter on the character is incremented.
- certain other schematics have new optional boxes added into which these "crafting enhancers" can be placed. Now one has to be very careful about this. Items that currently do not benefit from experimentation have no reason for these "crafting enhancer" boxes, IMO. And unfortunately, this includes medical modules. Because the "crafting enhancers" themselves will rarely have the same serial number (unless multiple of the same kind can be granted at the same time), this means no change has to be made to the crafting interface itself. The enhancers will only be useful for hand crafting because of the serial number issue. For it to remain balanced though, the in-game affect of using these boxes has to be something like additional customization options (e.g., when crafting clothes) that have only a cosmetic affect on game play, or they have to be very tiny, incremental bonuses to the stats of the item (a 10% or even 5% boost in a stat is not tiny, IMO, and will kill the non-enhanced market for an item that is not "rapidly consumable").
- if the sub idea mentioned above is used, then these new optional boxes could be marked to require "M crafting ehanhancement credits" (M could vary from schematic to schematic or could always be 1. i dunno) and then the player can double click the box to "load" his previously rewarded enhancement credits into the box.
Now, the problem I see with this proposal, and with any proposal that involves mucking with the schematics is this: it means every schematic in the game is going to have to be examined, re-evaluated, and then potentiallymodified if this is to be done well. Which is no easy task.
ArveMennderchukk
Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:09 am
#4
I pretty much agree with everything you've said above Mal, with one small caveat. I'd like the "crafting drop" have the potential to drop more than a single serial. In combat loot drops you can sometimes be really lucky and get multiple items with the same serial (like three pieces of same serial heavy leather). It would be nice if the more complex the item being handcrafted were, the better the chance of dropping a multiple-serial "crafting loot" would be.
ArveMennderchukk
Wed Sep 15, 2004 1:14 pm
#5
Atan,
Yeah, maybe then we could finally talk to those damn Jawas.
I wish I could play as a Jawa.
Yeah, maybe then we could finally talk to those damn Jawas.
I wish I could play as a Jawa.
Straker_Atrella
Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:29 pm
#6
Ok, I'm jumping on Mals idea, mixed with some that Drashk had in the other thread.
We can get Mals "Crafting Insight credits," from quests, loot drops, or from hand crafting.
Quests: Something you can't do to often.
Loot Drops: Rare, and from "Technical" creatures, like Jawasfor example.
Hand crafting: The most common way to get these. How likely you are to get one is tied to the complexity of the item you are crafting. With a 50 complexity item, you may get a 2% chance to get one. With a 10 complexity item, it would be like .02% This would stop people from grinding for them.
Each person can hold a maximum of 5 Crafting Insight Credits. They can also be "traded" to another player.
Now here is who it would work.
1. You make an item like normal.
2. At the "create prototype" stage, you have another option. "Use insight Credits," at which point, another box would open.
3. Now you can choose how many credits you want to use, 1-5. How many doesn't make the item better, but how many
items your going to make, basically a factory run. Yet your maxed at 5. Once you pick this, you can't go back.
4. Now you pick which bonus you are going for. See Drashks list on the other thread, pretty decent ideas.
5. Now you go to a crafting mini game, kind of like the Force Sensitive quests. How well you do in the mini-game, determines how much of a "bonus" you get. If you do badly, the item, can actually be WORSE, then normal. There should be at least 5-10 of these mini-games, and you don't know which one you will get. When I say 10 of these Mini Games, I mean "types" of mini-games. Each type would have maybe 10-20 variations. (edited for clarification.)
6. After the mini-game, if you picked to spend 1 Insight Credit, you get the item, if you picked 2-5, you get a schematic to put in your factory.
Now people may not like the factory inclusion in this, yet when you consider that you need to pick how many you are going to spend FIRST, plus you don't know which crafting game you will get. You may get one that you suck at, then all 5 credits are wasted.
First Hand crafters will have a much better shot at getting these credits. Second Hand Crafters will be better at the mini-games, so they will be more sought after. Third, a level of variety, and fun will be added to crafting that we have never seen before.
All of this can be added to the current crafting system, without totally changing it.
The thought of it is very exciting actually.
Message Edited by Straker_Atrella on 09-15-2004 02:30 PM
Message Edited by Straker_Atrella on 09-15-2004 02:56 PM
Malitevv
Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:46 pm
#7
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Each person can hold a maximum of 5 Crafting Insight Credits. They can also be "traded" to another player.
I'm ok with them being tradable if there is a tight cap on how many a player can own. I'm oppossed to the idea of them being tradable if its a free-for-all like it is with existing loot drops.
as for mini games: i want my holo-chess set! (sorry that is irrelevant here, but I had to say it. 
)
)Message Edited by Malitevv on 09-15-2004 02:46 PM
Straker_Atrella
Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:55 pm
#8
Malitevv wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Each person can hold a maximum of 5 Crafting Insight Credits. They can also be "traded" to another player.
I'm ok with them being tradable if there is a tight cap on how many a player can own. I'm oppossed to the idea of them being tradable if its a free-for-all like it is with existing loot drops.
as for mini games: i want my holo-chess set! (sorry that is irrelevant here, but I had to say it.
Message Edited by Malitevv on 09-15-2004 02:46 PM
Right, and that is why I put the cap at 5. Plus the mini-games will be a sink for all of these to fall into as well. You could lose them all.
Let's say that there are 10, some of them are liek the FS crafting quest, others are like your Holo Chess. The Holo Chess board could come up, and it would ask you what the best move would be. If you got it first try, you would get max bonus, 2nd medium bonus, 3rd move small bonus, 4th no bonus, 5th item is worse then normal.
That would just be 1/10 of the puzzles. Some people would LOVE that puzzle, others would fear it. Yet you never knew which one you would get.
When I say 10 puzzles, I mean 10 TYPES. Each type would have maybe 20 different puzzles inside it, for say 200 puzzles to start.
This would open up a whole new market for small crafters. They may not stock 300 droids, but they could be the Master of the Mini Game.
Malitevv
Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:16 pm
#9
I'm skeptical of whether puzzles can be made to work in a truely entertaining way (in the long term anyway)but run with it. It might go somewhere.
You misunderstand my point with the holo-chess board. I want the holo-chess table in the passenger area of my multi-passenger spaceship, so I can play against my guests and then pull their arms out of their sockets when I lose.
Atan
Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:25 pm
#10
If they implement puzzles like in the FS Quests i hope that they copy implement some long time running RL games too... likea Starwars Minesweeper, Solitaire, Tetris, Breakout or even Pong ^^. The same kind of puzzle will be boring soon but these games are still funny and worth the time playing (if you are in the mood for it 
)
) MfG
Atan
Tarne_Monter
Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:32 pm
#11
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Malitevv wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Each person can hold a maximum of 5 Crafting Insight Credits. They can also be "traded" to another player.
I'm ok with them being tradable if there is a tight cap on how many a player can own. I'm oppossed to the idea of them being tradable if its a free-for-all like it is with existing loot drops.
as for mini games: i want my holo-chess set! (sorry that is irrelevant here, but I had to say it.
Message Edited by Malitevv on 09-15-2004 02:46 PM
Right, and that is why I put the cap at 5. Plus the mini-games will be a sink for all of these to fall into as well. You could lose them all.
Let's say that there are 10, some of them are liek the FS crafting quest, others are like your Holo Chess. The Holo Chess board could come up, and it would ask you what the best move would be. If you got it first try, you would get max bonus, 2nd medium bonus, 3rd move small bonus, 4th no bonus, 5th item is worse then normal.
That would just be 1/10 of the puzzles. Some people would LOVE that puzzle, others would fear it. Yet you never knew which one you would get.
When I say 10 puzzles, I mean 10 TYPES. Each type would have maybe 20 different puzzles inside it, for say 200 puzzles to start.
This would open up a whole new market for small crafters. They may not stock 300 droids, but they could be the Master of the Mini Game.
I think that another great addition to this would be the addition of the "re-crafting/disassmebly" suggestion that was mentioned in the other thread.
For clarification on the re-crafting idea, I was thinking of the one where you could take an already created item and then reassemble it with new parts so that it could be in better shape than it was before you crafted it. Possibly you could even swap out things like droid modules.
The interesting part to this gets when you mesh it with the Crafting Insight Credits(CICs). I was thinking that you could use the CICs either in the original combine of the item, or in a secondary re-assembly. However, there is a catch you have to limit the number of times you can use CICs on item, so I was thinking that you could do it like slicing. Basically each item has a flag on whether or not it has been "Customized by a Crafter". Maybe even listing the name of the crafter it was customized by (if the customizer so chooses).
Straker_Atrella
Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:34 pm
#12
Heh Mal, I know what you meant, I want that too. I was just saying, we could have that in here as well.
The big thing with the Mini-Games, while of course fun would be great, that isn't so much what I am shooting for. Challanging and varied is more what I had in mind. Could have brain teasers, chess puzzles, calibration stuff like the FS things, hand eye coordination, even Star Wars trivia, lol. The goal would be that even though you may be good at one type, you may not be good at them all. You want to sit on the edge of your seat hoping for one, and crash and burn when it's one you hate.
While it would be "cool" if they could all be tied to crafting like the FS calibration stuff, I just don't think that would be varied enough to make it challanging.
Malitevv
Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:39 pm
#13
Tarne_Monter wrote:
For clarification on the re-crafting idea, I was thinking of the one where you could take an already created item and then reassemble it with new parts so that it could be in better shape than it was before you crafted it. Possibly you could even swap out things like droid modules.
The problem I see with this is I consider it very likely that any object in this game has any "memory" of the components that went into it and therefore can't really be deconstructed. The reason I consider it unlikely it remembers the components it was made from is because remembering all that cruft would be a considerable amount of data base space, which currently would serve no purpose. And I don't think adding that kind of load to the database would be worth adding the ability to deconstruct something. I suppose there may be a way to write algorithms that create new subcomponents that are likely different than the ones from which the item was made for the purposes of deconstruction, but that would be considerably less satisfying.
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