Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Droid Commander/Combat Droid Engineer
Icarus-6 wrote:
I am a Master Droid Engineer and a Master Artisan, which is pretty much as dedicated to Droid Engineering as you can get. I suppose I could skill up in the one branch of the Armorsmith tree and be totally self sufficient but really I think everyone will agree I've pretty much maxed out my necessary skills to be a DE. The only problem is I still have so many skill points left over that I mastered Merchant, filled out the Pike branch under Brawler, and actually had some Entertainer skills, so from a character standpoint I've obviously still got some free time on my hands. Basically, it is impossible for me to sacrifice everything for the sake of being a craftsman and be a better craftsman than someone who is both a MDE and a TKM (something which is entirely possible to do).
Having so many skill points left over, why mess with an established profession by adding more stuff that may get nerfed or bork the entire profession up? Let them put in the seperate DH class and putthe left over skillpoints into that instead. Or if that is too far down the road, master Pistoleer or TKA to get a combat fix.
The people that are screaming for a hybrid profession just want some "free" stuff added to the DE class. They don't want to give up the Merchant, Medic, or Weaponsmith that they may have mastered. There are plenty of skill points left over even after mastering both Artisan and Droid Engineer to take up a combat profession as well...yes, even the DH class if that ever makes an appearance.
I think a third tier in the DE profession would too much without adding a third tier to other professions. I personally would like to see a third tier to some of the elite combat professions. This would for one pull combat people, some, away from dabbling in medic or CH, to reap the added benefits ofa higher combat class. Also in a combat profession whether your grinding or not, hologrinders excluded, once you master what are supposed to do. I have had many friends leave this game just because they mastered out and had no new objective. Sure there is lots to do in this game, butwhen you are a master carbineer what do you do, run around feeling all uber (which you are not as a carbineer), or do you drop all of that hard work to become another profession.
I posted on another thread as well, but I think Squad Leader is the best place for any droid handling type skills. That profession has so little interest as it is and what better place to learn how to command troops in the field, be they droids or people, than Squad Leader school.
Prin Eckbo, Naster Droid Engineer
Shadowfire
Gribnitz wrote:
...Having so many skill points left over, why mess with an established profession by adding more stuff that may get nerfed or bork the entire profession up? Let them put in the seperate DH class and putthe left over skillpoints into that instead....
...The people that are screaming for a hybrid profession just want some "free" stuff added to the DE class. They don't want to give up the Merchant, Medic, or Weaponsmith that they may have mastered...
I think you misunderstood me since you are suggesting that they put in a Droid Handler class and allow people to spend points in that to control heavy combat droids.
My proposal isn't to put the extra things into Droid Engineer. My proposal is two create two additional classes which come off of Droid Engineer but which require further XP and skill points. You suggest creating a Droid Handler class and I suggest a Droid Commander class but in intent they are the same thing, a class to allow certain players to control heavy combat droids.
The difference is I am also advocating another class be created, Combat Droid Engineer. Nothing gets taken away from the current Droid Engineers and nothing gets added to them. Instead people who wish to build and command heavy combat droids take an additional class which consumes most of their remaining skill points if they intend to master it. This solves the problems of having to decide between unbalancing the current DE class by giving them the ability to build and command heavy combat droids or frustrating existing DEs by allowing them to build but not command those droids.
It also helps to separate the 'pure crafters' from the 'droid combatants' who are at odds with one another creating a win-win scenario.
Redondo wrote:
I think a third tier in the DE profession would too much without adding a third tier to other professions...
...I posted on another thread as well, but I think Squad Leader is the best place for any droid handling type skills. That profession has so little interest as it is and what better place to learn how to command troops in the field, be they droids or people, than Squad Leader school.
I was thinking about this over lunch as well. There are two arguments against not allowing third tier droid professions. The first is that there is a problem and this will help resolve it. The Developers have already stated that they are thinking about adding third tier classes in different areas, so this is not going to be a unique situation ultimately. Unless a large block of third tier classes are all rolled out at once something needs to come out first, so why not DC and CDE? Considering the tuning issues that occur when a new class is introduced in any MMPORPG it would be best to introduce only a few classes at a time so the idea probably should not be held up until a large block of third tier skills can be developed.
The second argument is that while an elite combat class master may have a large body of points left over they can chose to spend those points in other trees to make themselves more effective in combat. Droid Engineers on the other hand cannot really chose to spend points in any tree beyond Artisan to make themselves more effective and because of the requirements of the class many DEs feel that Master Artisan is practically a requirement for the class even if it is not a literal requirement.
As for allowing Squad Leaders to command heavy combat droids the problem is that the developers have stated they are opposed to giving new certificates to existing classes. Yes, I would think that would be a good place to add the certificates but I am trying to work within the framework stated by the Developers.
Another third tier profession that would be interesting would be like a "Combat Professional" path that any master combat class could pursue. This would give that bored Master Pistoleer something to do with those 300k combat xp i they didnt care about smuggler or medic. It would also be interesting if they just made Squad Leader a third tier profession for all combat classes. I mean if your a master commando, carbineer, fencer, etc... wouldnt you have ample experience to lead troops into combat.
I dont know if adding professions is the answer but I dont think DE is the place for combat droid control, we're engineers not fighters. I also dont really agree with uber combat droids. I think any droids in combat should be capped at no more than level 25. Even droidekas in Episode I and II were not all that great. And so many people forget that AT-STs are not droids but vehicles with a crew, which ticks me off that poisons no longer affect AT-STs, wouldnt the crew get poisoned? They always seemed to have their windows open in the movies.
Ok, throwing caution to the wind and putting on my best asbestos suit I've decided (against my better judgement) to post this.
In an earlier thread I wrote:
...Anyone can make themselves a hybrid. Now you won't be as good at making droids as someone who is a 'pure crafter', but really, should you be? Is it fair for you to split your attention between crafting an combat and expect to be as good in both categories as someone who only focuses in one? Of course not. You should never be as good a combatant as a dedicated combatant and you should never be as good a crafter as a dedicated crafter...
This, I think, is the heart of the problem between the pure crafters and the droid engineers who want to lead their droids into battle. Unfortunately this is really tricky to resolved for two reasons.
The first is that the class has already been set up. There is pretty much no way to take away any skill tree ability without making dozens of people unhappy. You also can't add all the abilities that dedicated crafters are going to want and all the abilities that the combatant style of droid engineer wants to the tree without unbalancing the class and telling one group that they can't get what they want because they other group is getting something they want is just going to lead to resentment and flames from one side to the other.
The second problem is that in all honesty an MDE isn't dedicated to his profession. Really none of the classes are dedicated to their professions with the possible exception of Master Bounty Hunter who only has a handful of points when he's done. I am a Master Droid Engineer and a Master Artisan, which is pretty much as dedicated to Droid Engineering as you can get. I suppose I could skill up in the one branch of the Armorsmith tree and be totally self sufficient but really I think everyone will agree I've pretty much maxed out my necessary skills to be a DE. The only problem is I still have so many skill points left over that I mastered Merchant, filled out the Pike branch under Brawler, and actually had some Entertainer skills, so from a character standpoint I've obviously still got some free time on my hands. Basically, it is impossible for me to sacrifice everything for the sake of being a craftsman and be a better craftsman than someone who is both a MDE and a TKM (something which is entirely possible to do).
So what do I see as the solution? Create two additional classes both of which come off the DE tree; the Combat Droid Engineer and the Droid Commander.
Combat Droid Engineer would require Master Droid Engineer. It would be a full tree and as such by the time it is mastered a player is only going to have about 35 points or so left over, so an MCDE would have to be massively dedicated to his craft, much like a Bounty Hunter. CDE would be required to make the heaviest combat droids but just like Artisan allows the creation of some weapons Droid Engineer would allow the creation of some combat droids (so the currently proposed combat droids would not have to be pulled to make room for CDE). These droids would require certificates to use which would be provided by the class satisfying the three requirements of not allowing just anyone to use these killer droids, not adding extra certificates to existing classes (two primary issues the Developers have), and allowing the Engineers the ability to use what they have built (which was a huge complaint with the DH concept from most DEs).
Droid Commander on the other hand would only require part of the Droid Engineer tree (Blueprints at least, and possibly Production or Construction). It would also have requirements similar to Squad Leader (Exploration IV, Ranged Weapon Support Abilities Specialist, possibly some others I'm not thinking of). Like the Combat Droid Engineer the Droid Commander gets the ability to command the heavier combat droids. Again, this satisfies the two requirements of the developers of no heavy combat droids without certificates and no certificates added to existing classes.
At this point there are a couple of possibilities to balance out Droid Commander. One is that they have no advantage over the Combat Droid Engineer. The class takes fewer skill points to master, only requiring Engineering IV, Blueprints IV, Exploration IV, and Ranged Weapon Support Abilities Specialist to reach. While that sounds impressive three of the skills are in beginner trees and one is in an elite profession as opposed to four beginner skill branches, four elite skill branches, and two master skills. So the Droid Commander has no advantage over a Combat Droid Engineer but also can't make the droids itself. Its requirements are heavy enough (or can be adjusted to be heavy enough) to keep people from just jumping in while letting those people who want to lead their droid armies into combat do so.
The other possibility, and one which I favor, is to allow the Droid Commander to use the combat droids more effectively than the Combat Droid Engineer. They are allowed to call more combat droids than the CDE and have the ability to enhance the performance of their droids similar to the abilities of a Squad Leader to enhance the abilities of his group. Another possible ability would increase their ability to use Droid Stimpacks in combat (probably through decreasing the time it takes to use one significantly over what a CDE might have).
So there you have it. Under this plan both parties can get what they want (unless they simply want it all), Droid Engineers don't lose any abilities, any Droid Engineer can use what they have built and the Developer restrictions of no heavy combat droids without certificates and no new certificates for existing classes can be fulfilled. No one gets any more checkers than they've got right now, no one is forced to turn in the checkers they already have for new ones. Everyone goes home happy and balance is preserved.
I expect the first flames within five minutes.
Redondo wrote:
Another third tier profession that would be interesting would be like a "Combat Professional" path that any master combat class could pursue....
...I dont know if adding professions is the answer but I dont think DE is the place for combat droid control, we're engineers not fighters. I also dont really agree with uber combat droids. I think any droids in combat should be capped at no more than level 25. Even droidekas in Episode I and II were not all that great...
Again, I'm not sure of the necessity for a third tier in combat trees. I'm not saying there definitely should not be one, simply that I am unsure.
This is really academic however and is only peripherally related to the idea of a Combat Droid Engineer or Droid Commander. Whether DE is or is not the place to put the control of heavy combat droids is also somewhat academic since the developers have stated two things:
No one will be able to use the heavier combat droids without certificates.
No classes will be given new certificates.
Now this does rather stack the deck and make the Droid Commander something of a fete-accompli so I suppose we will need to resign ourselves to the concept. What we are able to do now is try to influence it's development so that we, both pure crafters and droid combatants, can get what we want.
As for the game needing heavy combat droids the problem is that Creature Handler pets are so very strong. Without heavier droids to balance them out the game will stay very much non-Starwars for many people. As for the strength of droids in the movies and there is debate as to the strength of Droidekas (you feel they weren't 'all that great' while other DEs will claim they made 2 jedi turn tail and run) they are actually far from the heaviest droids seen. The heaviest droids in the movies so far are the Hailfire Droids which show up at the end of Attack of the Clones and are so large people assume they are vehicles. Constructs like these would be the droid equivalent of Rancors and Graul Maulers. Given that the game is already designed to allow pets like Rancors and Graul Maulers this should not cause a serious imbalance if properly done.
That being said... Leave the crafting to the crafters, leave the fighting to the fighters. And let the fighters spend their skill points on fighting, not on crafting. The current method of spending skillpoints allows those who spend more points in crafting to be better crafters. Those who spend more points in fighting are better fighters. This mimics life well. Droid handlers should derive from a combat class. Master marksman would be a great place to start. They should not be derived from artisan in any way.
psdarby wrote:
The problem with making 3rd tier droid manufacturing and combat professions is the skillpoint usage. If Droid Engineer is a prerequisite of the droid handler who are droid engineers going to sell their droids to? No one. There is inherit dangers in giving any 1 class too much power. A master artisan, droid engineer, droid handler as suggested here makes the droid handler totally self sufficient profession. CH's to get custom pets must turn to a bio-engineer. They can gather pets from the wild but I'm under the opinion that this is too powerful. Their reliance on other classes should be increased and bio engineered pets should be more powerful than any pet caught in order to preserve balance. I'm sure the bio-engineers would agree. So, now in order to make droids one must master artisan, droid engineer, and then have a choice to become droid handler.... or combat droid engineer? Who would choose combat droid engineer? You have no skill points left for merchant or anything else for one. I mean. Lets be serious. A bounty hunter of crafting professions? No skill points left over to sell your droids? to do anything? I'm sorry, but if I am reduced to afk macroing night and day for someone to please visit my one and only robobartender vendor that would be just too much. All crafting professions should have the skill points left over to take up some merchant ability. There are few artisans even in true life that can't sell their own wares. Truely talented people have additional merchants to sell their wares. And this is true in SWG too. My vendors are set up all over my server at other merchants houses.
That being said... Leave the crafting to the crafters, leave the fighting to the fighters. And let the fighters spend their skill points on fighting, not on crafting. The current method of spending skillpoints allows those who spend more points in crafting to be better crafters. Those who spend more points in fighting are better fighters. This mimics life well. Droid handlers should derive from a combat class. Master marksman would be a great place to start. They should not be derived from artisan in any way.
While Droid Engineer would be a prerequisite for the Droid Commander class, under my proposal, the Droid Commanders would not be able to make the heavy combat droids. That would be an ability for the COmbat Droid Engineers, so they would have a market to sell to (albeit possibly a small one).
As for giving one class too much power, by making this requirements 'third tier' you avoid a lot of that as well. A Master Combat Droid Engineer would have the ability to both make and use the heavy combat droids, but not to their full effectiveness. They would also not have any skill points free for further combat skills. The Droid Commander on the other hand would not be able to craft the droids they command.
As for who would choose to be a Combat Droid Engineer, I believe there are players here who would. Yes, you wind up with no skills left over for such things as Merchant. This is the point of the third tier. The only way to make the heavy combat droids is to be so focused as to preclude yourself from having other skills. Otherwise you run the danger as you said of someone both making and commanding the heavy combat droids.
You would not be reduced to anything. This is a new profession and if you don't wish to deal with the restrictions of it you are under no obligation to play it. It should not confer any extra abilities in the crafting of the current droids and I am not proposing that any current droids be moved over to it, so you as a DE lose nothing.