Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Droid Commander: The 'remote control' pet profession proposal
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Tal-N
Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:11 pm
#1
It's fair to say that this whole concept of the Droid Commander profession has the distinct chance of ending up as little more than a clone of the creature handler profession but with bolts and blasters rather than tooth and claw. Ultimately people are going to look at it and realise just how cheap and lazy a concept it was. The fact is that every new profession and mini-profession added to the game needs to really add something special otherwise its going to feel like someone just couldn't be bothered to approach this issue of wanting battle droids from a more creative angle.
What I have come up with is a concept which is not only original but it solves a number of the issues which could arrise and could only be solved with turning the Droid commander profession into the sister of the creature handlers. This concept is actually quite simple in practice but might be a technical challange for the developers. I have posted this on the droid engineer forum since it's your correspondant who is going to be heavily involved with the new DC professions feedback so let me know what you think of this concept I'm about to pitch to you.
There are 3 main issues which need to be overcome for any new pet profession to be added:
- what makes it unique?
- what will make people want to play as it?
- how to prevent it from being overpowered?
- what makes it unique?
- what will make people want to play as it?
- how to prevent it from being overpowered?
Clearly a CH clone will solve only the overpowered problem however I doubt people will want to play it since CH is cheaper plus it's not unique. My vision of a Droid Commander profession is different though, I'll start with the most obvious issue to meet. Overpowering.
It's a fact that pets add to a players firepower, it's literally a case of A plus B. This has lead to many revisions of the CH professions and STILL when combined with a secondry combat profession you get a raw power template that is able to dominate against enemies. The DC profession runs the same risk if the devs approacg it as just another pet profession. Some people proposed the idea of needing to have a 'droid control device' (referred to as DCD from now on) which you have to hold much like a weapon while you have droids active. This would allow more powerful droids to begin with since they aren't added to the firepower of the player plus it ensures that when balancing the profession all you need to look at is the droids as if they were mobs. This idea has merit however it technically just becomes a tweaked version of the creature handler profession. If we're going to go with the DCD option then there is a better solution which leads us into the next issue. What makes the profession unqiue?
The special thing would be that the DCD wasn't just something you equip to stop you from using a weapon and fighting, what if it allowed you to take direct control of one of the active droids under you command as if it was actually YOUR character. I'm talking the works here... the camera switches to a view behind the droid, all of the movement and attack commands work as if it's a normal character so for all intents and purposes you are now the droid. This is what makes the profession unique with this idea, your actual character is now immobile and you're controlling a battle droid. This options up a totally new way of playing the game with various advantages and disatvantages which I'll cover now.
Advantages: With you now controlling the droid you can go into battle with more power than your average player is ever capable of. Afterall the droid is designed and will need to be replaced if destroyed. Since a CH can have up to a CL70 pet it's not unresonable to say that a battle droid can be just as high. Imagine that, going into battle AS a CL70 fighter.
Disatvantages: Despite now 'being' a warmachine you're actually vulnerable too. Your main character is now immobile and you can't easily know whats happening around them. Ideally you'd be grouped with the droid so that when controlling it you can see if your vulnerable player is under attack. Being defenceless it means you're going to be forced to protect yourself as you control the droid. If you die it's all over. You are also unable to use any other skills while controlling the droid so if you need to heal or retreat you have to relinquish control.
So what will make people want to play this profession then?
Well the first answer is that it's a one of a kind profession, the other reasons include the fact you'd feel powerful as the droid but also feel on edge with a surge of adrenaline because you know all it takes is for a mob to aggro to your character and you'd be in trouble. Probably un-able to switch the droid back to its AI to control your character before the enemy already started hurting you. Droids are also naturally ranged fighters so for group support they are ideal as both your droid and yourself can be at the back of a group and relatively safe.
That is basically the summery of what the profession would be like and it's superority over the casual CH clone that the devs seem to be considering. Lets get down to some of the details to flesh this idea of mine out.
One of the first things I'd say about this idea is that since it's just the droid(s) fighting and not the player they can be allowed to be far more powerful than your typical CH pet. The devs have said that a maxed player is equal to around CL30 and we know that the CH profession allows you to have a CL70 pet on top of that estimate. So what is to stop a battle droid from being CL100? I mean its fighting by itself after all, the player can't do anything plus in many ways with the AI now recognising the master of a pet it's very possible for a powerful mob to aggro to the players chracter without the droid they are controlling being able to stop them in time. The prospect of CL100 droids also allows for them to have medium armor which to the casual gamer will make their eye pop out of stalks but when you think about the pros and cons of this idea that isn't as overpowered as you might think.
So what kind of droids would fit into that CL1-100 range, well to be fair the droids need to look the part. It will be stupid to see an R2 unit crushing a rancor with relative ease however a Droideka is a possibility. This is just a suggestion but personally I'd lay the droid types out like this:
CL1-CL10
All of the current roster of droids which can have arms added but aren't designed for combat.
501-Z Police Droid (low combat design with minor combat potential)
Ssi-Ruuvi Security Droid (another low combat droid)
All of the current roster of droids which can have arms added but aren't designed for combat.
501-Z Police Droid (low combat design with minor combat potential)
Ssi-Ruuvi Security Droid (another low combat droid)
CL11-CL30
HK-47 series (not literally him but that series of Czerka corperation battle droid)
Xim Design War Droid (pre-Republic battle droid)
Krath war-droid (another pre-Republic battle droid)
Warden 10-24 (Modern Ulban arms design, typical high end bodyguard design)
HK-47 series (not literally him but that series of Czerka corperation battle droid)
Xim Design War Droid (pre-Republic battle droid)
Krath war-droid (another pre-Republic battle droid)
Warden 10-24 (Modern Ulban arms design, typical high end bodyguard design)
CL31-60
Trade Fedation/Techno-Union Super Battle droid (updated design with superior potential)
IG series (already in the game, lets have them please)
Trade Federation battle droid (old design but still combat effective, lower end obviously)
Mark X Executioner (another fine creation by Arakyd Industries)
Foreign Intruder Defense Organism [FIDO] (modern mon calmarian security droid)
Trade Fedation/Techno-Union Super Battle droid (updated design with superior potential)
IG series (already in the game, lets have them please)
Trade Federation battle droid (old design but still combat effective, lower end obviously)
Mark X Executioner (another fine creation by Arakyd Industries)
Foreign Intruder Defense Organism [FIDO] (modern mon calmarian security droid)
CL61-100
Droideka (Destoryer droids obviously, designed for heavy warfare)
SD-4/SD-5 series (top of the line non-imperial version of the Darktrooper)
RHTC-560 Hunter Trainer (best piece of Rodian droid design in the current era galaxy)
Droideka (Destoryer droids obviously, designed for heavy warfare)
SD-4/SD-5 series (top of the line non-imperial version of the Darktrooper)
RHTC-560 Hunter Trainer (best piece of Rodian droid design in the current era galaxy)
CL81-100 (factional only droids)
Phase 3 Dark trooper (not the wimpy current ones, imperial only)
Basilisk War Droid (old mandalorian war droid, rebel only)
Fromm Tower droid (rare but recent design, rebel only)
Phase 3 Dark trooper (not the wimpy current ones, imperial only)
Basilisk War Droid (old mandalorian war droid, rebel only)
Fromm Tower droid (rare but recent design, rebel only)
Thats just a basic list of some nice designs I picked out from the web, I mention some of the older designs because obviously modern era combat droids wouldn't really be weak since they are after all designed. That means the lower rated droids would all be much older types which are getting outdated now but are still quite forbidable. Some are pre-Republic designs which are highly advanced and ahead of their time, no doubt even thousands of years later they'd at least be tough but no match for modern droids. As you might note there is a greater range as the power increases, I'll come to why that is in a moment but typically I've researched and think that I have the power ratings fairly balanced in line with what the actual fiction dictates.
As you can see I have taken factional droids into consideration, fact is that the rebels don't have anything even remotely in the same ballpark as the AT-ST so i figure its worth throwing them a bone or two. The Basilisk War/Armor droid are a really advanced peice of design that have been mentioned alot but if you have played KotR you'll have heard Canderous' stories about them. These droid really are remarkable even by modern SW era standards. If something can survive planetary entry then it's very very tough. For more information just use a search engine to look up names of droids you don't recognise.
Moving on I want to mention what will seperate droids from pets in more than simply how they are used, clearly there needs to be certain advantages and disatvantages to a droid over an animal or a factional being.
The core point of droids which was evident from the Clone War is that they cannot think, sure they can learn but it's all raw numbers to them. In the end creative thinking is what seperates a pet from a droid. In the game we already see this in that droids have no special moves and no sense of survival. That means the Droid Commander droids will have the same problem, no specials and when you're not taking direct control of them they have rudimentary AI. The benefit is that you can fill them with various gadgets which have a similar effect of specials however these will need to be activated manually. These can be things like two-sheilding types, one which is a deflector and the other is a collision field. Naturally deflectors are designed for protections against energy and electrical based damage types. Typically in ranged combat a deflector is going to be better, then theres the collision-field which is design for physical collisions so better for melee enemies and kinetic damage types like blast and...err.. kinetic 
Finally the droids can be adapted to the situation by switching between different weapons, maybe they have an option between an on-board flamethrower, a rocketlauncher and an ion-cannon. The Droid Commando can switch through these at will while controlling the droid however when they are operating by themselves they simply use one of them which they were last set to use. I'd guess there needs to be some cost for adapting droids to the encounter since that is kind of like using specials.. I'd personally say that a drain to the Droid Commanders mind pool makes sence as they are operating a controller and thus 'thinking' about what they are doing.
That wraps up the idea on the whole, minor notes would be the 3 pet ative rule and a CL pool of 100 similar to the CHs. That would allow for three CL33 droids to be active at the same time so you can be escorted by a small group of Trade federation Battle droids if you wanted. I'd personally allow droid engineers to have some flexability with the CL ratings plus play around with armor and weaponry at will, keeping the chassies within limits similar to how I suggested here to prevent someone watching a Trade-Fed battle droid blasting through one rancor after another as their fail frame takes a pounding. That would look kinda silly for a droid.
Thoughts, suggestions, accusations are welcome
Hillslayer
Sat Feb 28, 2004 4:37 pm
#2
In what may well be my last post on these forums (and the game, quitting until space expansion minimum)I'd llike to say...
IDIOT
Droids need no handlers. That goes against the very idea of droids fool. If you want detailed reasoning of this dig up the 40 million other threads on the topic. Cya.
spearbearer
Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:18 pm
#3
Hillslayer,
there is no reason to call somebody a Idiot just he/she has a different view on things.
I think the idea is refreshing. I'm not quite sure if I like it, but it is original and could solve some of the problems with a droid handler profession.
But to be honest, I don't think it is very Star Warsy. Almost all droids I can remember work autonomeus. They just get a order and then thy try to carry it out. A remote controlled droid somehow dosen't feel "right" for me.
there is no reason to call somebody a Idiot just he/she has a different view on things.
I think the idea is refreshing. I'm not quite sure if I like it, but it is original and could solve some of the problems with a droid handler profession.
But to be honest, I don't think it is very Star Warsy. Almost all droids I can remember work autonomeus. They just get a order and then thy try to carry it out. A remote controlled droid somehow dosen't feel "right" for me.
Tal-N
Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:44 pm
#4
But to be honest, I don't think it is very Star Warsy. Almost all droids I can remember work autonomeus. They just get a order and then thy try to carry it out. A remote controlled droid somehow dosen't feel "right" for me.
The droids during the Clone Wars were all controlled via control ships, it was the only way to ensure that the droids would be loyal and follow orders. Droids in StarWars were not ALWAYS autonomous, but like i said. They can operate independantly however you have the option to control them directly.
Boeda
Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:02 pm
#5
I think those ideas are great. I dont think they should replace the need for decent conventional combat droid 'pets'. But in addition to them.
Those who say droids are autonomous. Well in This, SWG droids are fairly stupid and I dont think they are going to get any smarter. You can tell them to attack, to stay, to follow, etc. But thats not the same as being able to stear them and run them like a second skin.
It a beutifull idea which adds many features and addresses many concerns.
In addition to this a droid you could wear (like a 'mech') would be nice. You could benifit from its armor. {The ATs are really this sort of droid}
All more variety and difference. The 'steared droids could be more powerfull because they arnt added to existing weapon power. The 'mech' droids are affording the 'wearer' armor, as well as replacing a weapon so nuther circumstance.
I think its great and really nessissary for a full droid implimentation. But As i see this "Droid Invasion" here unfold. I dont expect much. thats alot of implimentation.
Tal-N
Sun Feb 29, 2004 7:36 am
#6
Hey DEs you have alot of trolls on your forum, maybe a droid army to keep them under control isn't such a bad idea. For people who don't like the droid handler profession you can shout and scream all you want, i was on your side two arguing for a means to buy or earn droid certifications without skill points however the devs and the majority of the community went for the option of the Droid Commander. All of the shouting and screaming with bold large letters doesn't matter now.. we lost. So make the best of it and at least try to steer this new profession away from being a CH clone please.
Tal-N
Sun Feb 29, 2004 8:01 am
#7
In addition to this a droid you could wear (like a 'mech') would be nice. You could benifit from its armor. {The ATs are really this sort of droid}
It's funny you say that because that is exactly one of the roles for the Mandalorian Basilisk. It's both a vehicle and a droid, in some of the many campaigns prior to the Sith War of Exar Kun the Mandalorians used Basilisks to attack planets similar to starfighters. They'd climb inside the droid gaining partial control over it and jump out of the airlock while in low orbit. They'd then begin falling through the atmosphere using long range targetting sensors to attack the ground based defence turrets and systems. Because they were falling at such a rapid rate they were exceptionally tough to target so they used to crash down and emerge from the crater to begin a ground assault. These things are incredible to be honest and a perfect match for an AT-ST.
The nice thing about this idea as well is the various ways in which you can tweak the professions power other than nerfing the droids if they were simply pets like any other. Because of the DCD which the player has to be holding you have a number of options open to you because you can control the droids directly so sway the tide of battle.
- the DCD could only operate within a fixed range, maybe around 70m. The Droids would not go further than this and when they reached the edge of the transmittion range they'd stand and attack the retreating target as it moves further away. This would mean the player has to be almost within aggro range of the enemies they are fighting with. If the devs think the DC is too powerful they can start making the range smaller to put the player at more and more risk without weaking the droids themselves.
- the AI for the droids could be exceptionally primative to ensure that the DC has complete control over them. There's nothing worth than having a pet which is aggroing to something you don't want or not focussing on a singular target. That means the droids ideally need to ONLY attack targets they are assigned, maybe the ability to que up targets in their memory sort of like programming them. While that would give alot of controlled it means if the player is pre-occupied they won't notice a droid standing around doing nothing. The devs could alter the AI to make the droids more or less powerful based on their independant AI abilities.
- because you have the option to control the droid plus take command to switch sheilding types and weapons there is the option where if you as the player suffer damage control of the droid is lost. Or it takes a few moments to take control over the droid and to relinquish control back to the AI. Adding a delay like that combined with bringing the controlling player closer to the combat area would significantly counter how powerful the profession might be in the eyes of the developers. It's also possible that the droid is inactive for a short duration after you relinquish control. Or they can make all of the droids shut down if the player is killed to ensure that if the player dies the battle is lost completely since the CL100droids are unlikely to be defeated by anything but groups of CL50+ enemies or a single tough opponent.
So as you can see, compared to a simple pet having the droids function better under remote control of the player opens up new possibilities for tweaking the power of the profession itself. No more nerfs.
Aeneus
Sun Feb 29, 2004 9:58 am
#8
Why is everyone still talking about droid commander I thought that idea was scrapped... if not- someone please give me a address to the post so I can catch up with everyone else
WeHtMat
Sun Feb 29, 2004 1:49 pm
#9
please dont make droid handlers! this is a terrible idea. make it a none point utilizing certification that requires experience and credits.
Tal-N
Mon Mar 01, 2004 1:31 am
#10
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Developers&message.id=24997&highlight=droid+commander#M24997
To summerize;
"I read the threads and counted up all of the opinions and 2/3’s of the community basically said, “we want additional functionality in the existing droids” or “we want utility droids”. We did too, but basically there was enough time to do either utility droids or add the combat droid profession, but not both and that created a really difficult choice. So we’ve all read the threads, the forums, had meetings and strongly debated the issues internally. We’ve talked about all the possibilities and what we can do in the amount of time we have,
There are lots of pros and cons here. On one hand, the Droid Commander was very flashy and exciting and would add a lot of combat droids into the game. The DE economic need would be answered by droid commanders buying their droids and low level players would also have a need for regular droids with combat abilities (the existing droids that are slated to get combat module functionality in Publish 7). It wouldn’t address the DE problems directly, but it would provide alternative solutions. The downside is that it would add another profession into the game and the DE’s are left without the utility droids that they have been patient in requesting. There are a great many permutations of the debate, but that generally represents the two sides. (There is the third angle of doing both by adding in the combat droids with the certification, but that’s a lot messier than it seems. I’ll try to explain it in a post this week or next, but I want to keep it out of this post so as not to further confuse the issue)"
So yes, they're going to be adding the Droid Commander but not right now cause there is no time. In around 2 months it should be ready so clearly they'll be writing up design motes at the moment. We're still waiting for that explaination Thunderheart promised as to why simple combatdroid certifications wouldn't work.
There are lots of pros and cons here. On one hand, the Droid Commander was very flashy and exciting and would add a lot of combat droids into the game. The DE economic need would be answered by droid commanders buying their droids and low level players would also have a need for regular droids with combat abilities (the existing droids that are slated to get combat module functionality in Publish 7). It wouldn’t address the DE problems directly, but it would provide alternative solutions. The downside is that it would add another profession into the game and the DE’s are left without the utility droids that they have been patient in requesting. There are a great many permutations of the debate, but that generally represents the two sides. (There is the third angle of doing both by adding in the combat droids with the certification, but that’s a lot messier than it seems. I’ll try to explain it in a post this week or next, but I want to keep it out of this post so as not to further confuse the issue)"
So yes, they're going to be adding the Droid Commander but not right now cause there is no time. In around 2 months it should be ready so clearly they'll be writing up design motes at the moment. We're still waiting for that explaination Thunderheart promised as to why simple combatdroid certifications wouldn't work.
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