Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Project: Droid Engineer Chassis Experimentation System Upgrade
Drashk wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
You seem to think that the Devs will let us make "better" droids. If that is so, then that is different. Yet until I know for sure that our product would actually improve,I would never support this idea. I am afraid the Devs may think this is an outstanding idea, "Make Eperimentation matter more!!" Yet the caps for our droids would be the same. Can't change those due to balance reasons.
If the DEVs decided to only make experimenation matter more, without increasing the benefit, then no, I wouldn't support it either. The question, is, IF a system such as this was offered that would produce droids that are better then we can already make, would you be willing to accept the change.
"Maybe." If there was a strong benefit for the customer as well as the DE, not just one or the other. It would also need ot be limited, we can't totally lock out new crafters. Even if we could make Droids better at "uber" levels, this would widen the gap between Master and Novice even more.
I don't think the entire crafting system is broken. Clean it up a little, but I don't see a need for a huge change.
Its better to cut a length of wood too long,and trim it down, then to cut a length of wood too short.
Not this far down the line. The combat system has huge problems, it needs a full revamp. The crafting system in general does not. Some professions role in the economy may have problems, but not how crafting is actually done. SWG has the best crafting system around, don't break what isn't broken.
Yep, anybody can do it. It's not that hard, it can be done in any profession. That's the thing, ANYBODY can do it. So how is it unbalanced? Just because some people prefer hand crafting over factory crafting doesn't mean one should be better.
Its kind of like how profession stacking is right now. Two combat types may have spent the same number of skill points, yet aFencer, Swordsmen, Brawler Master has an advantage over a Pistoleer, Marksmen, Carbineer. Why is this? Because there is a flaw in the overall system design. The sameapplies to crafting. Therereally isn't any one single problem that can addressthe flaw. I'm not talking about a hand vs factorydebate. I'm talking about aflaw in how things are being handledright now. The issue of lot swapping might bethe biggest culprit in the equation though.
Ok you have me confused now. I'm with you with the combat stuff, as I said, the Combat System is broken, hence why we are in the CU sandbox.
Yet I am not with you on the crafting part. The ONLY problem with crafting is that some products are needed more then other, as well as some products wear out. DE sales are not less then Armor sales because we click our schematics differently. It is our place in the economy that needs fixed. "Need" is what needs addressed, not crafting.
I fail to see how even a full revemp of the crafting profession will fix the "need" issue.
With the Droid Publishes our resource requiremements went through the roof - I believe the experiementation enhancements need to happen for modules and not for chassis beyond their final assemble.
As far as decay goes, the best way to do so would be in the assemble of the chassis, basing it on the quality of chemical, and add some metal requirements as well. I always found it odd they require so little. I'm not "scared" of having to deal with quality, I just see no need for it to be as redundant as this proposal - these are not weapons or medicines with a half-dozen important stats. At most, we are going to get decay out of this. But unless the chassis starts affecting the modules (say a good chassis makes the modules better) this is way too much for what will essentially be one line experimentation, and that is IF we get decay.
Eliminate the mechanism quality on the "lower" droid components, and make the latter ones more important. Making the process more complex isn't bad, but adding so many redundant levels for experimentation on what will essentially be a single line of usefulness is overkill.
AO
Straker_Atrella wrote:"Maybe." If there was a strong benefit for the customer as well as the DE, not just one or the other. It would also need ot be limited, we can't totally lock out new crafters. Even if we could make Droids better at "uber" levels, this would widen the gap between Master and Novice even more.
Man, not to disagree too much, but it isnt a gap right now, its the grand canyon. Until I was almost a Master there was almost nothing I had that anyone wanted. I built chassis, a couple of crafting/med droids and not much more.
Even now I have two problems, time & stuff. I can play between 8-16 hours a week.
When I was working DE to try and make expenses I'd spend my whole week on DE stuff and would bearly break even. Also not fun. Often I wouldn't sell a droid all week.
If I'm working my Architech skills it takes me 4 hours a week to keep up. I sell a couple houses and a special structure every week. Not bad. I can do all that and still head out and have some fun poking around. And I make money. About 100K proftit a week. Not much but plenty for me to have fun with.
DE needs some major help so that the small timers and casual players can make a living. And I hate to say it but we're going to have to make the uber stuff hard to produce if we ever want to sell the other stuff. Though we'll also have to make the non uber stuff at least a little useful first. I think this proposal would help. But I also think it should come after or with new modules and a decay system.
The droid salesman escorts his customer over to a shiny R3 and announces, "This is our top-of-the-line combat-rated R3 Droid. Best droid on the lot."
"How much?"
"1 million credits," says the salesman.
"How much?" the customer nearly chokes in disbelief. "Are you nuts? What do you have thats cheaper?"
"Are you a Scout or Bounty Hunter?"
"No."
"Shame, that takes care of most of the non-combat droids. Do you need a portable crafting station or a droid to pay maintnence on your structures?"
"Crafting station? I'm looking for a droid. You know, something fun. Your little metal buddy thats fun to kill things with. Lets see the rest of your combat droids."
"Ahh, here is one of our third tier combat droid. Its only 20K."
"What does it do?"
"It explodes."
"Cool," says the customer. "How much damage does it do when it explodes?"
"None," answers the salesman. "It just explodes when anything bigger than a kreetle hits it. Cool smokecloud though. Wait? Where are you going? You haven't seen the second tier. They flee combat slower than the creatures chasing them. Gives you an extra 20 seconds to run away."
You guys ever have days like this?
The prices in this ad have been inflated to protect the pride of the crafter. No animals on Dantooine, Lok, or Endor were harmed by these droids, but not for lack of trying.
Drashk wrote:
So basically the two major arguements against such as change would be -
- This would turn Droid Engineer into a crafting profession where Experimentation matters. I am ok with Experimentation not having an impact on my profession.
- Adding complexity to the crafting game of Droid Engineer is bad, because it means that I am required to put more effort into creating a quality product, like other crafting professions do.
I know that I'm boiling the comments to their lowest form.I'm trying to understand the root of the problem as to whether it is with people not wanting experimentation to matter, or if its because it would mean that our crafting process would change.
In order to make Experimentation in our profession matter, which has been a core request throughout the entire history of our profession, there needs to be a fundimental change to how we build our droids. Without this change, experimentation will always take a back seat ride in our profession.
Actually I think you've missed an element here.
Decay aside (sincemaking experimentation effect decay really comes as part of the droid decay topic) what could/would experimentation do for us?
If you take item/data/med modules for example- any experimentation that effects the 'usefullness' of this item automatically makes the differing 'levels' of these items redundant - since the modules level is no longer indicative of its ability and theres the potential for a lower level item made by a highly skilled DE to have a higher rating than higher level module made by a less skilled DE (or simply not experimented on). This is before you also consider the 'stacking' of similar modules in a single chassis.
As I see it the problem with experimentation actually lies with the fact that our droids dont have enough utility - and what utility they do have is already largely determined by the level of module(s) installed - to make experimentation matter you would either need to completely overhaul the current module type/structure system (and end up with one type of each module with experimentation determining the 'level' and a bunch of skill boxes that only offer experimentation bonuses - as Armoursmith has) or add new utility functions that have various 'stats' (in the same way that Weapons/Armour have different 'stats') for experimentation to change (though I suspect these stats will be largely hollow or superficial in function.
Thus welook more likeTailor than weaponsmith - Our products do largely what they say on the tin (its a jacket - you put it on!) where only certain items have any scope for any meaningful experimentation (since as Tailor padded armour segments)
That said, I find the suggestions to be overreaching and tedious. Increasing experimental value on certain subcomponents is a good idea, but the elimination of basic droids and bizarre module slot capacity variations are not something that I think should be advocated.
Despite your assertion that there is no market for basic droids, they are an attractive model for many customers and a good option for many crafters. There are numerous droid customers that are in the market for a droid that has one specific function (astromech, storage) and want to be able to be in and out with that droid without the hassle of special ordering or a lecture on the many other modules available. A basic droid also gives DEs an option to produce these one-function droids on a scale that allows them to devote more time to customized droids and customer interaction.
The number of modules a droid can hold being tied to experimentation is a non-starter. Even if it was a good idea, it would be impossible to implement, as I cannot think of any instance where the qualities of a subcomponent of a schematic changes the resource/subcomponent requirements of the final deed schematic. This kind of on-the-fly schematic would require a structural code rewrite that would make the combat upgrade look like a hotfix, and there are more lucrative and winnable battles to be fought.
My suggestion would be to take a look at some of your less central ideas and push them to the forefront. I wholly support the idea that movement speed could be tied to exp. on motive systems, and a meaningful replacement to the vitality rating based on experimantation is also a good idea. I think that taking your idea for chassis experimentation and applying it to having an effect on the base HAM is a better goal than rewriting the whole crafting system.
I think that the main goal of this game should be that crafting be rewarding and fun. I want the profession to be realistic and provide for real differences in the quality of a longtime Master DE and a new player, but not at the cost of every waking minute being devoted to hand crafting a droid. We already have challenges that other professions don't, such as the # of our finished products that require subcomponents that require subcomponents themselves. We should not be working toward making that even worse.
snoman321 wrote:
The way that you gauge the value of a product in an MRPG is how much people are willing to pay for it. Value determines what a product is worth. The fact that normal Armor sells for 300k over nad over again, a good T21 sells for a million show their value.
The only TRUE way to ensure that DE is a healthy profession is by ensuring that it has a healthy place in the economy. Having fun crafting, feeling good giving droids away, and just digging droids in general does not mean a profession is healthy.
The only true way to gauge if a crafting profession is by seeing how CUSTOMERS feel about it. As a DE, our view is skewed, by our love of the profession, so we want to make things the way WE want it, not what is good for the game neccesarrily. Good for the game is how it will affect our customers.
If DE will ever be considered "healthy" as you said, then a good DE will make as much as a good AS or WS. Credits are the only true gauge of success.
I just want to take a sec to say that I disagree wholeheartedly with this statement. Put yourself in the shoes of the devs when SWG is concepted: They start coming up with profession ideas. One of their many goals is to try to give something to each of the types of people that will play the game. Not everyone that plays the game is out to make millions and millions of credits in the fastest, most efficient way possible. So they concept professions that appeal to other types of gamers. DE will be "healthy" if there is a decent portion of the subscribers who want to play the profession, regardless of their reasons. Period. You'd better come to grips with the fact that the devs will not measure all the crafting professions with the same yardstick. While credits must be a significant factor in determining "game balance," it is not the only one.
Omab
Again, you are not reading what I said. I never said MAKING millions selling droids. I said CUSTOMERS paying what they feel a product is worth. People wanting to play a profession because it is fun or whatever has ZERO to do with a products place in the community. There could be a video game involved in making droids that was fun and peopledid it just for that. The profession would not be healthy unless there was an equal need for Droids as everything else.
Need equals how much people are willing to spend for a product. I keep hearing people saying this isn't so, fine, then how else do you gauge it?
Drashk wrote:
You are still assuming much. You are 100% under the assumption that a system such as this would produce worse droids, when, if implimented fully, would allow you to produce better droids, if you have the resources to do so. Sure, some DEs will see an impact if a system such as this was intorduced; however people will quickly adapt to such a change. It has happened before, and it would happen again.
You seem to think that the Devs will let us make "better" droids. If that is so, then that is different. Yet until I know for sure that our product would actually improve,I would never support this idea. I am afraid the Devs may think this is an outstanding idea, "Make Eperimentation matter more!!" Yet the caps for our droids would be the same. Can't change those due to balance reasons.
We aren't talking about only a partial change to the Droid Engineer crafting system. We are talking about a profession wide crafting change, that would effect majority of our crafted items. I'm trying to suggest a grand sweeping change, so that it stirs up more discussion on the matter, so that IF the DEVs plan on changing the crafting professions with as much vigor as will be put into the CU, we have a place to start from, and work our way down. I'm already working on a second version of the idea suggested here. One that is a little less grandiose, but still has as much of an overall effect.
I don't think the entire crafting system is broken. Clean it up a little, but I don't see a need for a huge change.
I think that you are misinterpreting how I feel about Droid Crafting. If push came to shove, I could more then likely out produce you in a single month, using what I have left collecting dust on Shadowfire. 8 Factories, over 800 crates of parts and at least 3 million resources sitting in storage and I haven't logged on to that server to build droids full time in many months now. Even though I haven't collected a single resource in at least 3 months there, I still have some of the best to ever spawn on Shadowfire. When Shadowfire was younger, I more then likely supplied the highest number of droids on the server.
Yep, anybody can do it. It's not that hard, it can be done in any profession. That's the thing, ANYBODY can do it. So how is it unbalanced? Just because some people prefer hand crafting over factory crafting doesn't mean one should be better.
Don't be to sure you could outproduce me
After taking up the Correspondent position, I stopped and took a look at the overall game and how DE fits into the greater picture of things and how crafters in general effect each others markets and the crafting market as a whole. The ability to Mass produce goods is actually a one of the fundamental flaws in the crafting system, when compared to the game economy, but it is neccessary in order to keep up with supply and demand in some aspects. Let me repharse that... Mass producing goods isn't the problem, the problem is that we have the ability to mass produce too many goods. (Talking about all crafters and not just DE)
Something has to give somewhere. I would rather see the requirements on crafting go up, then to see a change towards less factory usage, as seen with Shipwright. Then again, I may only be seeing a possible outcome of what the DEVs could do to handle the issue of mass producing in excess.
Maybe this is a server issue again. On ours it's hard to keep a good vendor stocked with Food, Armor, weapons, Doc supplies and other consumables. They just sell to fast. This is with mass producing, if you lower that, it will be even worse.
Straker_Atrella wrote:
snoman321 wrote:
I just want to take a sec to say that I disagree wholeheartedly with this statement. Put yourself in the shoes of the devs when SWG is concepted: They start coming up with profession ideas. One of their many goals is to try to give something to each of the types of people that will play the game. Not everyone that plays the game is out to make millions and millions of credits in the fastest, most efficient way possible. So they concept professions that appeal to other types of gamers. DE will be "healthy" if there is a decent portion of the subscribers who want to play the profession, regardless of their reasons. Period. You'd better come to grips with the fact that the devs will not measure all the crafting professions with the same yardstick. While credits must be a significant factor in determining "game balance," it is not the only one.
Again, you are not reading what I said. I never said MAKING millions selling droids. I said CUSTOMERS paying what they feel a product is worth. People wanting to play a profession because it is fun or whatever has ZERO to do with a products place in the community. There could be a video game involved in making droids that was fun and peopledid it just for that. The profession would not be healthy unless there was an equal need for Droids as everything else.
Need equals how much people are willing to spend for a product. I keep hearing people saying this isn't so, fine, then how else do you gauge it?
You are bothcorrect in how to gauge the health of a profession.
Snow is correctby looking at it in the way that I am looking at it. From the play value that the DEVs would be looking at. Health of the profession in this light means how likely a person is to play the profession and keep playing the profession. Are people finding the profession to be a challenge? Do people enjoy what they are doing? Are they having fun? Does the profession have a full range of abilities? These are just a few questions that I have asked myself trying to look at the subject from the DEV point of view, but as a player of the profession.
Straker is correct from the player point of view. Credits are an indication of what a person feels they have accomplished. This topic actually came up for me not too long ago. I enjoy hearing the sound of my Email, when I log on, since it means that someone saw a good that I had to offer, looked at the price I placed upon it, and decided that the price was appropriate for the function of the product. This is the health of the profession from the players point of view.
The problem that we currently face is that our profession is unhealthy from both points of view. This is why I started the ball rolling on Project Droid Engineer. So that we can discussion possible solutions that the DEVs can look at, from the player base, and see a general picture of what we would like to see, as a Community.
Drashk wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
snoman321 wrote:
I just want to take a sec to say that I disagree wholeheartedly with this statement. Put yourself in the shoes of the devs when SWG is concepted: They start coming up with profession ideas. One of their many goals is to try to give something to each of the types of people that will play the game. Not everyone that plays the game is out to make millions and millions of credits in the fastest, most efficient way possible. So they concept professions that appeal to other types of gamers. DE will be "healthy" if there is a decent portion of the subscribers who want to play the profession, regardless of their reasons. Period. You'd better come to grips with the fact that the devs will not measure all the crafting professions with the same yardstick. While credits must be a significant factor in determining "game balance," it is not the only one.
Again, you are not reading what I said. I never said MAKING millions selling droids. I said CUSTOMERS paying what they feel a product is worth. People wanting to play a profession because it is fun or whatever has ZERO to do with a products place in the community. There could be a video game involved in making droids that was fun and peopledid it just for that. The profession would not be healthy unless there was an equal need for Droids as everything else.
Need equals how much people are willing to spend for a product. I keep hearing people saying this isn't so, fine, then how else do you gauge it?
You are bothcorrect in how to gauge the health of a profession.
Snow is correctby looking at it in the way that I am looking at it. From the play value that the DEVs would be looking at. Health of the profession in this light means how likely a person is to play the profession and keep playing the profession. Are people finding the profession to be a challenge? Do people enjoy what they are doing? Are they having fun? Does the profession have a full range of abilities? These are just a few questions that I have asked myself trying to look at the subject from the DEV point of view, but as a player of the profession.
What I don't get is how making the profession harder and more complicated "helps." Unless you find some way of adding mini games or something, the actual art of "crafting," will never be really fun. Sure building something, adding options, or whatever can be fun, but the rest it just mouse clicks. Making people harvest more resources or do more mouse clicks wont make it any more fun.
Part of enjoying a profesison is making something that people need and want, I think there are 3 reasons that people DON'T play DE's.
1. Complexity.
2. Product isn't in high demand, they wont feel needed.
3. Lower income then other Crafting professions.
All of those things from a crafter point of view (not a customer) are what keep people from playing a DE. How exactly would a change such as this, fix any of them?
Straker is correct from the player point of view. Credits are an indication of what a person feels they have accomplished. This topic actually came up for me not too long ago. I enjoy hearing the sound of my Email, when I log on, since it means that someone saw a good that I had to offer, looked at the price I placed upon it, and decided that the price was appropriate for the function of the product. This is the health of the profession from the players point of view.
The problem that we currently face is that our profession is unhealthy from both points of view. This is why I started the ball rolling on Project Droid Engineer. So that we can discussion possible solutions that the DEVs can look at, from the player base, and see a general picture of what we would like to see, as a Community.
Straker_Atrella wrote:
You seem to think that the Devs will let us make "better" droids. If that is so, then that is different. Yet until I know for sure that our product would actually improve,I would never support this idea. I am afraid the Devs may think this is an outstanding idea, "Make Eperimentation matter more!!" Yet the caps for our droids would be the same. Can't change those due to balance reasons.
If the DEVs decided to only make experimenation matter more, without increasing the benefit, then no, I wouldn't support it either. The question, is, IF a system such as this was offered that would produce droids that are better then we can already make, would you be willing to accept the change.
I don't think the entire crafting system is broken. Clean it up a little, but I don't see a need for a huge change.
Its better to cut a length of wood too long,and trim it down, then to cut a length of wood too short.
Yep, anybody can do it. It's not that hard, it can be done in any profession. That's the thing, ANYBODY can do it. So how is it unbalanced? Just because some people prefer hand crafting over factory crafting doesn't mean one should be better.
Its kind of like how profession stacking is right now. Two combat types may have spent the same number of skill points, yet aFencer, Swordsmen, Brawler Master has an advantage over a Pistoleer, Marksmen, Carbineer. Why is this? Because there is a flaw in the overall system design. The sameapplies to crafting. Therereally isn't any one single problem that can addressthe flaw. I'm not talking about a hand vs factorydebate. I'm talking about aflaw in how things are being handledright now. The issue of lot swapping might bethe biggest culprit in the equation though.
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Good fresh ideas AO, especially about the overkill for oneline of experimentation.
On sort of an off-track, there is something odd that I have noticed. It "seems"that those that many would classify as industrialists are against the idea, yet those that seem more for the idea are the hand crafters, or the ones that don't care about money.
Which I find kind of ironic, because the hand crafters "may" feel this will give them an edge over the Industrialist. Yet in my mind, this is actually the opposite. The Industrialist DE, takes Droids very very seriously, for them (at least me,) it is almost like a job. They wont settle for mediocre resources, they will either Harvest them, or buy them if needed. They will take the time to ensure that their Droids are the best that can be made. DE is already a "job," so they just put in more overtime.
Now while "some" Hand Crafter, or custom order DE's, care about making the best product, many don't. To some extent, they may, getting some good resources, for Combat Modules or Harvest modules for example. Yet if suddenly every single resource became important, getting all the "top quality," resources may be to much work, and not much fun. They may or they may not bother. If they do not bother, the Industrialist, has the edge.
Now if they do bother, what happens when that "uber 8 module steel" is selling for 40 CPU? The industrialist can afford it, yet can the hand crafter casual DE? Even if he wants to make the best of the best, due to resource prices, he may not be able too. Now he can't make Droids with as many modules as the Industrialist, so he finds himself cut out of even what used to be non-quality markets.
I do find it ironic that those with the most to lose by this change are the ones that seem to like it the most. Then again, these are simply my opinions, so they could be totally wrong.
I think you make a very good point Straker. The appeal to the handcrafter is the "fun" that comes from trying to find a few really good resources, carefully selecting the ones they want to use to balance out their limited experimentation points. The system adds complexity to the crafting processby increasing the number of decisions that must be made in the process, as well as the level of influence the crafter has on the final product. This is more fun than mindlessly churning out carbon-copy advanced motive systems.
But the move just makes it so the industrialist has to work that much harder to maintain an existing edge, while providing an opportunity to get an even greater one. I agree that while this move adds some fun factor to the profession for the handcrafter, it gives the hard-working industrialists a chance to out-market the handcrafter even further.
I hope those that are in favor of this level of experimentation are prepared to hold their tongues in the "I'm losing all my business to the power gamer who has 30 factories and spends 3 hours a day hunting for premium resources" thread.
Snoman321 (Omab)