Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Did they nerf Adv Probots and Adv Protocol droids?
Seshemw wrote:
Yes, you do come off that way.
Not in this thread, because the person did not know they were using the exploit.
And I have to agree with Svengali to some extent. By trying to defend the 'turf' of the master DE (on the servers with resources that support type six modules, which isn't all of them), you (and others) succeeded in making an already low value profession less while screaming that it needs to be more.
The abuse of the bug (to exploit) devalued what a master DE is. There was no point in it at all. Your argument has many flaws, which I will point out at the end.
Stacking clusters, so you can make everything (eventually) six class six or better, out of crap components? Bad. Being able to make varied droid chassis with the same general capabilities? At least as good as giving bio engineers skins where the ONLY difference in capacity is what goes INTO the skin (take two roughly identical dna templates, put them into wildly different skins, you get the same pet in capabilities... but the look can be tuned to the end user's desire. Once, this could be done with droids. Due to your fervor, venom, and anger that it didn't meet YOUR vision of How Things Should Be, this ability is lost. Your profession is made less. Your client base, who might have ZERO desire for an R(x) that can't hold a paint job, is reduced.
Comparing DEs with BEs is a big mistake. First, BE is a hybrid profession.DE is a pure crafting profession. Second, DEs have already stated that we do not want to be a clone of BE. Third, your understanding of the BE profession isn't complete. Different creature skins have different levels availible (ie: a Kimo cannot be made into a level 10 non-CH pet). That means not all skins are created equal. In addition to that, BEs depend upon DNA samples to make their pets. As they progress up the sampling tree, they have more success for sampling and they get better quality samples. You cannot compare BE with DE because frankly they're different. (FYI, I'm a BE also)
DE is implemented differently. Instead of levels, you have the amount of abilities a droid can hold. It's been posted many, many times how the logical progression of what a droid can hold (starting at 1 item, all the way up to 6 items). Second, the infinite stacking all came down to the fact that the cluster was not differentiated from a normal module. Using your logic, modules and clusters should have been interchangeable, yet modules never fit into a cluster slot, only the other way around. Third, when TH answered the question quite a while ago, he could have said "this is working as intended". Instead, he did not. He stated that it was a bug and that it was being worked on. It is now fixed. Finally, you have the whole concept of advanced versions of droids. What is the point of having them if clusters are supposed to go into all droid module slots?
What I've just given you is proof by contradiction.
But you holding the master tag can feel proud that you've got a miniscule purpose in an almost fatally broken profession.
With the fix of this exploit, we're 1 more step closer to being a working profession. Exploiters can no longer abuse the system for their own gain.
Could somebody please post a link to the post, or at least the board/topic in which TH addressed this bug/exploit/pre-nerf?
Thanks
Way I see it is:
1. Nesting Cluster Modules was an exploit.
2. Putting Cluster Mods in a regular harness slot was a bug.
Ok guess you can go back to bashing one another. I've dropped over half my DE skills and all but Eng 1-4 of artisan. Thanks SOE for spending so much time on the most important professions: BE, Chef, and CH. I truly understand their importance to maintaining the "Look & Feel" of Star Wars.
Ho...
Seshemw wrote:
As above, removing clusters from general use (NOT the nesting bug/exploit, but clusters in general) does not level the ground, it removes customization and reduces the droids you see in the world, making the 'we want to see droids in wide circulation, it IS Star Wars' attitude suffer -even more-. To accomplish YOUR goal, stratifying skills so a novice can't imitate a master, look to the OTHER professions things have been done to. CL limits on certain skins for BEs, Pet level limitations for CHs, etc etc.
Listen, taking out a bug that should have NEVER gotten into live to begin with does not take away the "customization" as you call it. The reason for the limited customizable range of droids is due to the total lack of neglect by the developers over an 8 month period. We have a total of 8 stinking modules to put into a droid and some of those are not even useful due the lack of functionality. Before they FINALLY fixed the multiple craft stations last patch, the most you could put into a droid was 5 modules, which made the R2 and the R3 basically the same droid. What was the point of being a Master Droid Engineer if everyone could make the same damn droids?
I was harsh on this poster and for that feel a bit sorry, because he claims he didn't know, but I do have my reasons. My PA had a guy in the mall that only sold exploited Probots with every damn module in it for 30K. I wasn't going to report it, because I don't want to see someone banned from the game due to the neglect the developers pay to us, even it wasconfirmed as a bug/exploit by Thunderheart. Due to this guy I couldn't sell crap in that store. Why? Why would anyone by an R2 or R3 with 5 modules when this guy sells probots for even less with every module available, plus it would fight for you ????? Wow, that guy sure made a WIDE variety of droids to sell. Probots and more probots. On top of this I had to explain to peoples emails why my droids sucked compared to this other guys just about every other day. When I asked the guy if he knew he was exploiting aknown bug, he just had the "Lol, so" kind of attitude.
So, your next question is going to be...Why didn't I exploit the hell out of droids and sell them too for even less ??? Well, for one I have respect for the rest of the Droid Engineer population and refused to do that. For another, selling one droid with every damn module available kind of puts a crimp on any return customers don't you think ?? And yet another, I could have done the same thing with an MSE and saved myself a ton of resources and factory management, but see my above reasons.
The bug is gone now, let it die.
HoChiHung wrote:
Way I see it is:
1. Nesting Cluster Modules was an exploit.
2. Putting Cluster Mods in a regular harness slot was a bug.
I usually try to avoid posting in troll-ridden threads... but I can't resist this one.
Ackis wrote:Seshemw wrote:
Stacking clusters, so you can make everything (eventually) six class six or better, out of crap components? Bad. Being able to make varied droid chassis with the same general capabilities? At least as good as giving bio engineers skins where the ONLY difference in capacity is what goes INTO the skin (take two roughly identical dna templates, put them into wildly different skins, you get the same pet in capabilities... but the look can be tuned to the end user's desire. Once, this could be done with droids. Due to your fervor, venom, and anger that it didn't meet YOUR vision of How Things Should Be, this ability is lost. Your profession is made less. Your client base, who might have ZERO desire for an R(x) that can't hold a paint job, is reduced.
Comparing DEs with BEs is a big mistake. First, BE is a hybrid profession. DE is a pure crafting profession. Second, DEs have already stated that we do not want to be a clone of BE. Third, your understanding of the BE profession isn't complete. Different creature skins have different levels availible (ie: a Kimo cannot be made into a level 10 non-CH pet). That means not all skins are created equal. In addition to that, BEs depend upon DNA samples to make their pets. As they progress up the sampling tree, they have more success for sampling and they get better quality samples. You cannot compare BE with DE because frankly they're different. (FYI, I'm a BE also)
DE is implemented differently. Instead of levels, you have the amount of abilities a droid can hold. It's been posted many, many times how the logical progression of what a droid can hold (starting at 1 item, all the way up to 6 items). Second, the infinite stacking all came down to the fact that the cluster was not differentiated from a normal module. Using your logic, modules and clusters should have been interchangeable, yet modules never fit into a cluster slot, only the other way around. Third, when TH answered the question quite a while ago, he could have said "this is working as intended". Instead, he did not. He stated that it was a bug and that it was being worked on. It is now fixed. Finally, you have the whole concept of advanced versions of droids. What is the point of having them if clusters are supposed to go into all droid module slots?
What I've just given you is proof by contradiction.
But you holding the master tag can feel proud that you've got a miniscule purpose in an almost fatally broken profession.
With the fix of this exploit, we're 1 more step closer to being a working profession. Exploiters can no longer abuse the system for their own gain.
For what it's worth, my understanding of BE is actually pretty well flawless, I've been one since release. The CL differences mean that only a CH of x skill can call them, but putting CL10 dna templates in a kimogilla gets you a CL40 kimo with CL10 stats. I think my point stands on that, honestly, though opinions will of course differ.
I'm going to have to seriously disagree with how you see BE as a hybrid profession not 'pure crafter'. Hybrid of what and what? They make things (they do, thank god, now make many things of varying usefulness). None of those things are, in my opinion, directly useful to ANYONE. All of them require other professions to see any use. Creatures? Require CH training (yes, even CL10 and under need a CH to give them the basic three commands. Unless you consider a pet you can call and store to be directly of use). Tissues? Require an artisan or tailor to turn them into cloth/panels, and then turn them into wearable product. Food supplements? Require an artisan/chef to turn them into actual supplements, then combine them into edible food. Pet stims/vitality packs? Useless (utterly) without a pet (see #1, requires CH involvement to some degree).
The only one that's arguable are petstims/vitality.
What makes them hybrid? Their combat skills? not a single combat skill there. The scouting and medical -prerequisites-? Oh please. The BE profession can't heal, the BE profession has no additional (or improved) abilities that extend out of their scout/medic prereqs. I have to assume you consider them hybrid just because they don't stem from artisan, so fit the definition of multiple starting professions (one literal definition), but that makes them no less a pure crafting class. And a vastly more pure crafting/support only course than a DE, who gets full (not so useful) use of their own creations.
Your second point in this bit, that DEs don't want to be BEs, I grok. That doesn't mean you can't use similar systems, just like carbineers and pistoleers all use the same framework of delay, damage, specials, ham costs, defenses, and the rest. Fitting profession specific differences within the existing shared framwork is, as devs have said, the most likely way to get changes at all, yes? There's nothing that says you have to be a carbon copy (I still loathe the idea of droid commanders, CHes with metal pets is NOT the answer). That doesn't mean you're not going to have similarities that can be compared to the other profession that crafts 'pets'. I have yet to see anyone try to posit some kind of insane cognate to DNA sampling for DEs either, thank god, so no matter what happens down the road you seem in no danger of having to worry about that.
Your last overall point that I'm quoting? You're misquoting me out of (I presume) your own ire at the topic. I'm saying one thing: Modules and clusters working in module sockets IN THE DROID SCHEMATIC gave your profession the advantage of being able to combine appearance and functionality in a game that, since release, has given you no additional function OR appearance. Someone wanted arms and arms and arms? They could get it, without being hampered by a lousy selection of modules. Wanted an R3? Sure. Wanted a probot? Sure, though I see and acknowledge the point of 'why would they want and R(x) droid, when they could get a probot that did it all AND could fight'... But that circles round to the REAL bug, which was nested modules. That probot wasn't going to have all class six modules and the whole nine yars, if you could just put clusters in cluster or harness spots on the droid schematic (and couldn't put clusters in module slots in the cluster schematic). The thing that seemed to burn you most, and hurt your business most, was JUST about cluster stacking and the best of all worlds for the consumer. A lesser fix, altering the cluster schematic itself to prevent clusters going into it, could've fixed the most serious part of your issue.
The cold truth is that you fixed a serious bug (nesting clusters in clusters, negating higher expertise DE skills being the normal source of high level modules), and then kept going to cut your nose of to spite your face by undermining what desirability most of your product line has.
For fixes that won't exist for another 40-60 days, if publish 7 really does end up being the Droid Evasion publish. Over 90 days most likely if you have to wait for publish 8.
This seems less than clever, but if it's what ALL DEs wanted (not just the small percentage of outspoken outraged masters), carry on. I hope you continue to enjoy the results as we slog towards publishes 7 and 8, and see how they screw it up when they're actively trying to work the profession.
Seshemw wrote:
For what it's worth, my understanding of BE is actually pretty well flawless, I've been one since release. The CL differences mean that only a CH of x skill can call them, but putting CL10 dna templates in a kimogilla gets you a CL40 kimo with CL10 stats. I think my point stands on that, honestly, though opinions will of course differ.
It's considered hybrid because you need two novice professions (medic and scout) to get them. Another reason why I'm having trouble comparing DE directly with BE is that to be a BE you need combat skills (I suppose you could argue the opposite). In my sampling experience, without combat skills, well it would have made things that much more difficult. I wouldn't call BE flawless, as I've seen some flaws with it (ie: templates don't stack for one LOL). My point was that certain skins have a minimum CH level. So I can't have a CH level 10 Kimo for example.
I'm going to have to seriously disagree with how you see BE as a hybrid profession not 'pure crafter'. Hybrid of what and what? They make things (they do, thank god, now make many things of varying usefulness). None of those things are, in my opinion, directly useful to ANYONE. All of them require other professions to see any use. Creatures? Require CH training (yes, even CL10 and under need a CH to give them the basic three commands. Unless you consider a pet you can call and store to be directly of use). Tissues? Require an artisan or tailor to turn them into cloth/panels, and then turn them into wearable product. Food supplements? Require an artisan/chef to turn them into actual supplements, then combine them into edible food. Pet stims/vitality packs? Useless (utterly) without a pet (see #1, requires CH involvement to some degree).
They're hyrbrid because they need two basic classes to get.
Just like BH, Commando, CM, etc.. It's how their classified.
The only one that's arguable are petstims/vitality.
What makes them hybrid? Their combat skills? not a single combat skill there. The scouting and medical -prerequisites-? Oh please. The BE profession can't heal, the BE profession has no additional (or improved) abilities that extend out of their scout/medic prereqs. I have to assume you consider them hybrid just because they don't stem from artisan, so fit the definition of multiple starting professions (one literal definition), but that makes them no less a pure crafting class. And a vastly more pure crafting/support only course than a DE, who gets full (not so useful) use of their own creations.
Your second point in this bit, that DEs don't want to be BEs, I grok. That doesn't mean you can't use similar systems, just like carbineers and pistoleers all use the same framework of delay, damage, specials, ham costs, defenses, and the rest. Fitting profession specific differences within the existing shared framwork is, as devs have said, the most likely way to get changes at all, yes? There's nothing that says you have to be a carbon copy (I still loathe the idea of droid commanders, CHes with metal pets is NOT the answer). That doesn't mean you're not going to have similarities that can be compared to the other profession that crafts 'pets'. I have yet to see anyone try to posit some kind of insane cognate to DNA sampling for DEs either, thank god, so no matter what happens down the road you seem in no danger of having to worry about that.
DNA sampling is fun!!!! I've been having a blast these last few days getting up the sampling tree. LOL Mmmmm... torton DNA.
Now if only I could get Krayt DNA. LOL And wow! We agree on the DC part!!!
The system that BE uses is a double edged sword IMO. It allows you to a) have a lot of flexibility and customization with your pets at b) the added level of complexity and headaches. After playing and making pets with all my friends names last night *grins* and ideal DE profession would use a similar system, based on the current framework. The components put into the droid actually *gasp* effect the final stats of the droid. That would rock!!!
Your last overall point that I'm quoting? You're misquoting me out of (I presume) your own ire at the topic. I'm saying one thing: Modules and clusters working in module sockets IN THE DROID SCHEMATIC gave your profession the advantage of being able to combine appearance and functionality in a game that, since release, has given you no additional function OR appearance. Someone wanted arms and arms and arms? They could get it, without being hampered by a lousy selection of modules. Wanted an R3? Sure. Wanted a probot? Sure, though I see and acknowledge the point of 'why would they want and R(x) droid, when they could get a probot that did it all AND could fight'... But that circles round to the REAL bug, which was nested modules. That probot wasn't going to have all class six modules and the whole nine yars, if you could just put clusters in cluster or harness spots on the droid schematic (and couldn't put clusters in module slots in the cluster schematic). The thing that seemed to burn you most, and hurt your business most, was JUST about cluster stacking and the best of all worlds for the consumer. A lesser fix, altering the cluster schematic itself to prevent clusters going into it, could've fixed the most serious part of your issue.
I don't think I mis-quoted you. You've taken the overall bugs and said part of it is bad, part of it is good. But they come hand in hand. The infinite stacking occurs because you could fit clusters into module slots. The system that your propose IMO wouldn't work, because everyone would just want advanced mouse droids. Again, comparing with BE, you have the minimum CH levels on certain pet skins. In order for your system to work, you'd have to implement something along the idea of maximum module level for certain chassis'. (this has been suggested before actually).
As well, just for the record my business wasn't hurt by the exploiters. People would come to me and ask about such and such, and I'd say it's possible with an exploit, but I will not do it. And then explain to them the facts about the situation and let them decided. If they chose to go elsewhere (1 person only in like 6 months of DE) then they did. I kind of operate like DELL actually, I try to find out what the customer wants, opposed to just spouting off numbers. I do provide my in-depth faq for them to read if they wish, but they trust my judgement, and I don't try to scam.
The cold truth is that you fixed a serious bug (nesting clusters in clusters, negating higher expertise DE skills being the normal source of high level modules), and then kept going to cut your nose of to spite your face by undermining what desirability most of your product line has.
For fixes that won't exist for another 40-60 days, if publish 7 really does end up being the Droid Evasion publish. Over 90 days most likely if you have to wait for publish 8.
This seems less than clever, but if it's what ALL DEs wanted (not just the small percentage of outspoken outraged masters), carry on. I hope you continue to enjoy the results as we slog towards publishes 7 and 8, and see how they screw it up when they're actively trying to work the profession.
I'm not sure of the numbers, but there have been a lot of debates about this issue on the forums. I think it was about 50-75% believed this was a bug, and the rest didn't. I don't think it was numbers of posts that influenced THs post (honestly, I don't think the DE forums are read that much by DEVs, or I should say that they weren't read much) and the question was actually posed by me. So I don't think it was about what we wanted (although, I was 100% for this), it was that "this is broken, should've been fixed in publish 1, but we're finally going to fix it".
BTW, I'd just like to say I appreciate a real post like this. It's 1000x better than the "troll" posts out there.
I feel for DEs. A lot. I will bow out on this one, at this point, holding firm to the idea that while the profession is broken it had some parts that were at least desirable to outsiders and there were droids getting used. With the reduction of 'useful' chassis, and the still present limit of only one droid at a time out, I don't see myself buying or using droids except in rare instances where I need to apply a buff from my doc and don't want to step over to a med center or throw a camp up, or make a replacement enhance kit in the field (I pre-make my stims from factory runs, so it's a case of pop one out, not crat one, for those). Granted, I still have four droids across two characters that I've had for months, thanks to friends and MDEs I'm on good terms with... but I don't see acutally needing to ever replace the battery hungry little buggers because three of the four have zero combat utility, and the fourth is impaired at best (but still better than most give it credit for, IMO).