Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: So much for new utility droids
Sketh wrote:
Because the cluster stacking exploit has been removed.This means that now, the most modules a droid can have is 6 (in an advanced R3 droid).
Wait a sec. There's two bugs/questionable bugs I know of:
1) Stacking cluster modules and;
2) Placing cluster modules into regular slots(droid slots, not into other clusters)
From the notes it looks like they're fixing #1 but not #2. Did I misunderstand the notes?
Raleran0 wrote:
Sketh wrote:
Because the cluster stacking exploit has been removed.
This means that now, the most modules a droid can have is 6 (in an advanced R3 droid).
Wait a sec. There's two bugs/questionable bugs I know of:
1) Stacking cluster modules and;
2) Placing cluster modules into regular slots(droid slots, not into other clusters)
From the notes it looks like they're fixing #1 but not #2. Did I misunderstand the notes?
From what Drashk has reported from TC, putting a cluster in ANY non cluster slot no does not work.
Which makes sense, if you look at the progression of slots total in each droid frame... there is a list out of them in the manual listed in my sig.
So, in short, both 1 and 2 are being fixed.
Sketh wrote:
progman63 wrote:
I just never saw how droids could really be ability enhancers except for technical abilities like crafting and experimentation.
- Slicing modules that add to a smugglers slice ability.
- A spray module that adds to mask scent.
- An entertainer module that allows entertainers to loose less stamina while entertaining.
- The GrillMaster 5000 module that lets chefs get better results.
- The metal detector module that increases survey range.
- The (existing) L6 med mod that gives +10% healing ability.
- The sub-sonic pasification module that lets BE's sneak up and get DNA better w/o having the mob agro on them.
Just to name a few that come to mind....
Yeah, those are great ideas for droid modules.
And I guess technically they would be considered, in the end result, ability enhancers.
And they achieve the enhancement by a physical means, rather than modifying an item or a character.
The example I was laughing at specifically (no offense) was someones suggestion for droids to enhance a combat persons aim or efficiency, although I suppose a droid could tie into a weapon scope and further compensate for user and environmental variables.
That entertainer module could be explained as an auto-stim applier.
We could also propose an entertainer module that increased XP due to the increased enjoyment of the crowd. Especially if the droids could animate, or supply a light show, and you could syncronize that with your flourishes 
I was just thinking that any ability enhancement that a droid would provide would need to be justified by some physical, mechanical, or electrical/electronicaction on the part of the droid.
The combat example(s) I'd seen didn't seem to make as much sense.
But if the devs aren't going to consider ability enhancing modules right now, then perhaps we should try to concentrate on action enhancing modules that they might consider.
Soronume wrote:
I always liked the idea of a droid helping to limit (not eliminate) the randomness of a slice. right now it's any of X attributes that are hit by the slice.A droid could reduced the chance to X/2 (smuggler pick ones to "focus on")
progman63 wrote:
The example I was laughing at specifically (no offense) was someones suggestion for droids to enhance a combat persons aim or efficiency, although I suppose a droid could tie into a weapon scope and further compensate for user and environmental variables.
Hmm.. yeah. You were laughing at this specifically, eh? Is this becauseblaster bolts don't have any friction or drop over range?Is it because blaster bolts have no travel time from the gun to the target? Is it becauseyou thinkblasters have an automated tracking and leading system already? You don't think there would be anybenefit from aiming assistance from artificial intelligence in real time? Or is it that you have never shot a weapon before?
Don't knock it if you don't understand it.
I was just thinking that any ability enhancement that a droid would provide would need to be justified by some physical, mechanical, or electrical/electronicaction on the part of the droid.
The combat example(s) I'd seen didn't seem to make as much sense.
Okay, here is the justification explaination for the droid targeting module. The droid can track both range, windage, and elevation and feed that information into a weapon scope. The reticle compensates based on the information.Distance over time is taken into account, so minor adjustments can be made to "lead" the target, so the blaster bolt meets the target at where it will be, not where it was. All of these things being done by a droid in real time is faster and more accurate than guestimations done by the marksman.
You have a targeting module for the droid, you have an interface component in the rifle.
In game terms, you get a + to accuracy. So tell me what is funny about it.
SinjenRandall wrote:
What is the design for our profession, by the way? From the beginning, do you honestly think they had a grand design or plan for us? I don't have any clue what it could have been, besides "craft droids". I am sorry, but every single crafting profession provides items that enhance abilities. Every single one. ForThunderheart to say that the DE shouldn't means that he said something he didn't mean.
ACTUALLY, I'd heard a rumor that due to time constraints, at one time they'd floated the idea of DROPPING the DE profession before release.
But either someone internally had a lucid moment where they realized that would really cripple the game (since promos I'd seen had mentioned building droids), or the beta community put the smackdown on their behinds and they realized their folly.
To balance means exactly that: to oppose a force with an equal, opposite force. What "balances" players with opposing forces happens to be ability enhancers. I cannot really participate in sustained combat without doctor buffs, spice, sliced weapons, and weapon powerups. I cannot participate in crafting without some form of crafting station, harvesters, or crafting tools. To argue that these items are not ability enhancements is just an argument in semantics.
If they don't start thinking of droids in terms of "basic platform", then we are forever doomed. They bring everything else "in line", so why are they treating DE like an afterthought? Utility droids - even in terms of combat - must be designed and thought out while they are implementing everything else. That way they don't end up having to re-balance later on. At some point they have to face our problems and challenges. I am sick of them sweeping us under the rug for later.
Well, I think the key here is what variance (total modification) they feel comfortable introducing into a skill.
And if they have decided that considering the current strength (CL) of various levels of PVE/PVP (beginner, intermediate, advanced content/opponents) a modification of +10 or +20 to a specific combat skill or group of skills (only as an example) is the maximum acceptable increase to maintain balance, given all other factors that could also modify that skill directly or indirectly (additional skills, tapes, power ups, etc), then they have to ensure that the maximum value of that type of modification never goes over that acceptable limit.
So whenever they introduce a new element into the game that also modifies that skill or group directly or indirectly, they need to reduce all other factors that also increase the skill or group, or increase the strength of all content/opponents at those various levels of PVE/PVP.
They don't want everybody taking all these ability enhancers and gaining a +100 modification to a skill or group.
I agree that now would be the perfect time to add ALL possible enhancements for combat since they're working on the system, and balance everything at one time.
But obviously they don't have the resources to to EVERYTHING at once. If they allocated 6 weeks for implementing the combat reiteration, they need to try to stick to the schedule so that future additions (like SE!) don't get pushed back.
I agree, I'm tired of playing a profession that hasn't even been touched since release - it's time to get off the pot and get on the ball
They have already said that "DE touches every other game system". That means while they are looking at all the game systems, it is the perfect time to look at DE and figure outhow our role, and the role of our droids, can be fulfilled.
I agree, that would be the ideal thing to do. I have no idea what else they 'have on their plate' that's 'full until 2004', but it's about time they actually got down to business and put some SERIOUS time and effort into our profession if it's that darn important.
Right now DE does NOT touch every other game system - it SHOULD, Lucas has always said SW was the story of two DROIDS.
Right now, droids only significantly (questionably) 'touch' crafting, meds, and soon combat.
For this profession to finally realize the FULL vision of the SW universe (not just this game), droids MUST touch every other game system.
And that means numerous more action enhancing modules AND ability enhancing modules.
And medical modules providing extra healing. And... oh wait... what else candroids do?
I know meds are the only current ability enhancing module, all DE know that. It's a given when discussing the subject.
There have been several suggestions on how a droid could enhance combat abilities. A Droid Assisted Targeting or Rangefinder module could help a player improve his aim, and therefore his DPS. And what a probot already does, if an enemy is firing at the probot instead of you, is better than Center of Being. So in effect, they are passively enhancing yourability to perform combat. In fact, I would classify anything that assists a player something that enhances abilities.
Yes, there have been plenty of suggestions for combat ability enhancers, and plenty of other ability enhancers.
Yes, DE should enhance abilities just as almost every other profession does.
I think it's short sited to say droids will 'never' (did they say 'never'?) provide ability enhancements, almost every other profession does.
There are plenty of action enhancing droid modules to put forth if they don't want ability enhancers.
I don't know what you mean. I think you are arguing a technicality. If you are talking about Bounty Hunter Droids helping a Bounty Hunter find his mark, then they would also have to invent a new task for every [elite] profession so we would have a useful product for everyone.
No, just to differentiate the modules that directly enhance abilities (such as + meds, or + slicing - the ones the devs are complaining about) and any other modules, some of us just defined some terminology.
An ability enhancing module directly gives you a positive modifier to some skill.
An action enhancing module is, well, everything else I guess. But I guess there are some grey areas.
To further define it, a hard action enhancer would be a module that literally performs an action for you - repair, power, automated survey, pickup/deliver, record/playback, pilot/navigate, data retrieval, bartend, etc.
A soft action enhancer would be a module that doesn't enhance a stated ability, but still 'enhances' something - an entertainment performance module that increased XP.
It's so hard to discuss DE sometimes because there are so many unique nuances to the profession that most other profession don't experience.
Too many times, several people are discussing a particular issue, and it becomes quite apparent from what some of them are saying, that they don't even have the same ideas about what theterms or concepts they're discussing mean.
How can you argue or debate something if you're not even talking about the same thing???
It all gets too confusing sometimes.
We should be fair to the devs.
As mere players we can not comprehend the sheer unbalancing affect of having a Binary Grlll Master 9000 with Food/Chem crafter, +20 Food Experimentation, +20 Food Assembly.
With such power, we could bring the galaxy to its knees.
I know I for one would not want to take part in such an action.
Lonkley wrote:
We should be fair to the devs.
As mere players we can not comprehend the sheer unbalancing affect of having a Binary Grlll Master 9000 with Food/Chem crafter, +20 Food Experimentation, +20 Food Assembly.
With such power, we could bring the galaxy to its knees.
I know I for one would not want to take part in such an action.
AudioOrgana wrote:
Well, this is the point - and why TH's statement makes little sense.
I don't know a single elite medic that doesn't have a droid with Level 6 - which gives a 10% bonus to healing.
TH seems to say in the posting that adding bonuses "gives extra checkers" (a bad analogy to begin with) preculdes all stat bonus and utility in droids.
They seem hell bent on keeping the slicing stat random (speed or damage), so I can understand that feature not being added, but a slicing droid should give a BONUS to your roll - you should never be able to get above the caps already in place (30% for Slicers, 35% for Master Smugglers), but having a droid out gives you a better chance of a higher slice.
I asked the same question in the actual thread TH said this in that Sketh asks in the first post - "Then what would utility droids do?"
It's interesting, because TH has recently mentioned in passing he liked/was pushing for a slicing droid, but under the criteria he set forth I can't see what possible good a slicer module that didn't give you any bonuses would do.
To be honest, I think TH was just throwing it out there, much like the "people can't call pets without a camp because of EXPLOITS!" excuse. As we know, that turned out to not be true - but just a convenient answer that sounds good on the surface.
If the Dev team truly believes what TH says, that droids that give players stat bonuses or enhance player abilities will never be added (even though they already exist - I.E. medical droids), then the profession truly is doomed.
I think that TH just...how do I put this...well, I guess I'll just say that I don't put a lot of stock into statements like this anymore - unless it comes directly quoted from the Dev team these days, I'm assuming it's assumption (on TH's part).
Audio
Well, I agree. But there's a difference between things that already exist, and things that people want added.
It's going to be much easier trying to tweak balancing, than throwing a whole bunch of new stuff in - basically upending the apple cart and starting from scratch.
Even if that's what's really needed or should have been done from the beginning. And I agree, this is what really should be done.
I'm just so afraid that we're going to get a replay from ID.
Instead of everyone 'discussing' how stupid it is, there are other areas we could really be focusing on to actually get more DE content into the game.
I hate when reds make such definitive statements. Especially if it's not clear whether they know beyond a shadow of a doubt, or if it's just an opinion or a feeling they have.
Granted, they probably do have more information than us. But especially in this profession, we've heard so many things over and over again, and they never really materialized, or turned out to be inaccurate.
I was trying to figure out how to put this also
I don't think anything like not getting additional droids will 'doom' the profession, but it sure as heck will never help it grow beyond the poor state it currently is in........
As for caps, I have no idea if there are hard caps on all total skill values. It might actually cause problems for them to do that since then every time they made any changes to the + skill mods in any skill box they'd have to also go and make sure the cap was adjusted or there'd be a high risk of even more bugs.
But at this point, I'd guess there's a pretty mixed up bag of + skill mods and hard caps scattered around.
Actually, if you think about the many different places you can pick up + skill mods, it would actually make alot more sense for them to implement hard caps on all skills so they could eliminate min/maxing and control whatever maximumskill mods they've deemed acceptable for balance.
unfair bonuses?!?! hmm what is TH talking about?
how can something everybody can buy be unfair bonus? i mean droids are for everybody and can use them, so whats unfair on that one?
give us a use
make our master droids useful! beside resource eaters
make customising work permanent or at least will 2000 calls
give us a use
give us a use please
fix existing modules, kinda silly that lvl4 to 6 armor is working same
kinda silly that item modules lvl 5 or 6 not needed, cause lvl 4 do already the max
raise item storage capability.
/wakes up
oh well it wont happen soon i guess, but was nice dream /sigh
Not a DE here, but just so you guys know, you're not alone.
The approach taken with DEs seems to be the common way of dealing with the professions that aren't your basic "Bash it with a hammer" professions (IE: combat professions). I play as a smuggler and we've been waiting VERY patiently for real improvement (and have been told plenty of times that it's "just over the next hill").
You say that the devs' main problem is that they never really fleshed out the concept of what a DE is supposed to DO in the SWG universe, and I agree. That's a problem that plagues smugglers too. It seems to be a design problem with any profession that doesn't neatly fit into a particular niche. I think, with you guys, they got about as far as "Well, they're supposed to make droids" and then kind of went on to something else, without really addressing WHAT the droids were supposed to do or HOW the droids were supposed to help.
Personally, I want utility droids specifically to remove the time sink issues. That's right. I said it. I want a droid to go out to my harvesters, dump power and money in, and maybe pick up the stuff in the harvester. I want other droids to boost slicing percentages, or to do any number of functions that otherwise I have to do. Hey, that's what droids are SUPPOSED TO DO -- make your life easier. The balancing aspect? You have to pay for them initially and pay for their upkeep. Hell, vehicles remove the time sink but they pushed those out too. With my speederbike (prior to it being destroyed by some **edit** klikniks while I was incapped, that is), I was able to go back and forth to my harvesters, running survey missions and making about 3600 every 10 minutes or so (travel time, plus time sorting through survey missions). That's quick and easy money for me. Did the devs care? Hell no! Not only do they not mind this, but now they're letting us own three vehicles, a complete 180 from their previous position that doing so would somehow break the bank.
The point is that what I think this REALLY comes down to is that they don't know how to code this extra stuff in, and the knee-jerk response is simply "That'll break a crucial game aspect like time sinks." There are PLENTY of unbalance aspects of this game that they readily turn a blind eye to. Combat surrogates like CH pets or combat droids don't seem to bother them at all, despite the fact that there's no drawback for owning and using one and no benefit for NOT using one (which would >gasp< balance things!).
But just so you don't feel alone, smugglers have been getting no loving (or even real communication) for a while now, and we also feel the pain of seeming like an "afterthought" profession. IE: "We should put droid makers/smugglers in the game." "Ok, yeah. What will they do?" "Um, make droids and smuggleI guess. We can work out the details later." [fast-forward to beta3] "Crap! We forgot to make them smuggle/make droids! Um...throw in a bunch of skills, but don't give them any real usefulness in the game world."
Proof of this: the fact that both DEs and smugglers were on the "short list" for professions that needed loving (despite the fact that it's looking like we're both going to be dissatisfied with the loving we get). This comes down to the professions basically being "not quite finished or fleshed out" yet, and needing to have some sort of real purpose in the game world. Smugglers don't have that currently. People say we should slice or make spice, we say that we should be smuggling. You guys have the same problem. People say you should "make droids" but you're not allowed to make anything that's really USEFUL, so what's your real purpose besides making little cartoon characters that follow you like a puppy but don't do much else? See? Poorly fleshed out concepts and the devs keep running into the same problem: either they can't figure out how to squeeze us in after the fact, or they're reluctant to do so because it would somehow break the game balance (never mind that plenty of OTHER things break or already broke game balance, but they went through just fine).
SinjenRandall wrote:
progman63 wrote:
The example I was laughing at specifically (no offense) was someones suggestion for droids to enhance a combat persons aim or efficiency, I suppose a droid could tie into a weapon scope and further compensate for user and environmental variables.
Hmm.. yeah. You were laughing at this specifically, eh? Is this becauseblaster bolts don't have any friction or drop over range?Is it because blaster bolts have no travel time from the gun to the target? Is it becauseyou thinkblasters have an automated tracking and leading system already? You don't think there would be anybenefit from aiming assistance from artificial intelligence in real time? Or is it that you have never shot a weapon before?
Don't knock it if you don't understand it.
I was just thinking that any ability enhancement that a droid would provide would need to be justified by some physical, mechanical, or electrical/electronicaction on the part of the droid.
The combat example(s) I'd seen didn't seem to make as much sense.
Okay, here is the justification explaination for the droid targeting module. The droid can track both range, windage, and elevation and feed that information into a weapon scope. The reticle compensates based on the information.Distance over time is taken into account, so minor adjustments can be made to "lead" the target, so the blaster bolt meets the target at where it will be, not where it was. All of these things being done by a droid in real time is faster and more accurate than guestimations done by the marksman.
You have a targeting module for the droid, you have an interface component in the rifle.
In game terms, you get a + to accuracy. So tell me what is funny about it.
progman63 wrote:
Soronume wrote:
I always liked the idea of a droid helping to limit (not eliminate) the randomness of a slice. right now it's any of X attributes that are hit by the slice.A droid could reduced the chance to X/2 (smuggler pick ones to "focus on")
Or, a slicing module could actually allow smugglers to choose WHICH stat got sliced instead of this random nonsense.
Basically, if smugglers want to sell weapons with increases damage, they have to slice through dozens and dozens of weapons to get a good number of damage sliced weapons.
And I think, I'm notsure,the modification the slice makes is an inconsistent amount -you might get a good slice, or a poor slice.
Always seemed to me that they really had no control over anything a slice did.
I don't know a single elite medic that doesn't have a droid with Level 6 - which gives a 10% bonus to healing.