Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: DE's I need two things from you please
TH,
I've tried to post a reply now (twice). On both occassions, the less-than-stellar Lithium forum software 'wiped' my well thought out and constructive comments.
I don't think I have the patience to try for a third time.
I'd glad wait for DE changes to have a forum that wouldn't unexpectedly wipe all my hard work. Oh well...
/bow
Respectfully,
TH,
This is my third (and final) attempt to post something on thread.
The first two replies got 'whacked' by the Lithium software. 
Early on in this thread, I stated that I was done posting and dropped some 'attitude' on you.I apologize for the ranty tone that Itook...even though I feel like I was right to bepessimistic.My jadedness regarding our profession is, to be honest, well-deserved. You'll pardon me when I say that we've seen this situation happen before.
The Devs come to ask us what we want...we tell them, and....
Nothing. Silence. Nada.
However, as a "Community Member", beta-veteran and lover-of-the-game, I couldn't just walk away when you're here to listen and help. That being said, I'mgoing to give you the benefit of the doubt.
However, this IS the last time that I will do so. From here, you and the DE Dev will have to EARN my respect and future constructive input.
Thunderheart wrote:
1. I need to know if you agree or disagree with Sintrosi's State Of The Profession post.
Yes, I agree with her post 187%. There has NEVER been another post better written about the state of our profession. Ever.
2. I need to know if you agree or disagree with the rough DE plan in general
I don't think there was nearly enough information there for me to state whether or not I agree. When a better plan document arrives, I'll base my desicion on that. If you forced me to pick one or the other, I'd say....disagree. I feel like there were some good ideas worth exploring...nothing more.
Also, please post the changes you would make to the DE plan. Thanks
You need to stop referring to what was posted as a "plan". It's not.
It's one possible vision of our profession's future. Nothing more.
The changes that I would make would take WAY more room that we have here.
Your first order of business is to address every item on Gorantoth's thread. Period. End or story.
The only thing you should be doing (while that happens) is discussing what happens when his list no longer needs to exist (since every item on it would be effectively addressed).
Keep in mind here, I'm not some newbie DE-wannabe. You're talking to a beta 'cat' now, TH.
I know whereof I speak...
Then you came back and...
Thunderheart wrote:
Ill be the first one to tell you that I am not a crafter.
That's okay...we forgive you (slacker).
I'm sitting here reading your pains, your desires and your angst, but the commentary for what you want seems very individualized andvery limited in what you want.
I'm sure by now that you've seen/read Gorantoth's post.
This represents a healthy smattering of what we want/need. As for "limited"...I disagree.
We are actually kind of asking for gimping limits to our profession to be removed and/or altered. It's true that there's a lot of ideas on how to make that happen and I do not believe that it will be impossible to reach a consensus (especially with Sintrosi at the helm).
The only issue is whether or not the DE Dev will actually make our suggestions happen or not. Holocron himself stated that the Devs need to collectively listen to us more. I hope that this situation will be an example of that happening.
What we ask may be hard but...you asked. We answered (on several occassion, too).
You'vedone a fantastic job of telling me what you dont want, but only a few put effort inwhat they DO want and it left me withoutthe impression of a central direction that will suit most of your purposes.
That's because there is no "central" direction. You need to stop thinking that there will be a single vision/direction/answer to our woes. There's not.
You should start thinking in a multi-directional way.
There are, fundamentally, two kinds of Droid Engineer:
1. Pure crafters
2. Combat DEs
The droid categories I'd suggest you focus on are:
1. Combat droids
2. Crafting droids
3. Medical droids
4. Misc. service droids
Note: I personally believe that you need to start a DE forum thread gathering info on each these categories. This will make the discussion and information-gathering TONs easier, since we will be able to narrow our focus, as we did with beta "Focus" topics.
Im stilltrying to understand what makes you tick and I had some questions, so here goes...
There needs to be more usefull things for droids to do for certain professions.
What things and which professions?
This question alone deserves its own huge discussion/thread.
I'll attempt to give you my short version:
Professions we need to "service":
1. Combat roles (any players with a Novice, combat-related skill)
2. Crafters/Miners
3. Medics/Doctors
4. Entertainers
5. Merchants
6. Smugglers (primarily, enhancments of Slicing-related skills)
7. BEs (something akin to a "DNA slicing module" or something similar) The exact nature of "useful things" we can do for each of these profession types should be discussed at greater length in their own threads.
What items seem like the most important and which professions have interdependencies that are a lot of fun?
"Items"? Not sure what you mean there.
What's most important to me is:
1. Making cool droids
2. Making useful droids
3. Adding to immersiveness by use of #1 and #2
4. Killing Jedi with rocket-propelled MSEs (okay...I can wait on this one.)
Professions with which we need to have interdependence:
Note: I personally hate the idea of forced interdependence in the game. I understand why the design team feels a need to do this but I think it presents massive issues, especially for the casual player.
1. Combat roles (any players with a Novice, combat-related skill)
2. Crafters/Miners
3. Medics/Doctors
4. Entertainers
5. Merchants
6. Smugglers (primarily, enhancments of Slicing-related skills)
7. BEs (something akin to a "DNA slicing module" or something similar)
What entertains you folks?
This is not a question I can answer truthfully, given that this is supposed to be a "family-friendly" forum.
And give us Droideka
I dont know what I can do, but there is a lot of talk about Combat Droids. There are a lot of dependencies here so its not an easy, cut and dry proposition...
I don't see how you can say that. What specific dependencies are you talking about here?
How would Droidekas be any different than what CH's get...or what BE's do?
If you have specific arguments or details that can help to temper the profession's discussion on this, now is the time to put them on the table. Don't be so vague.
What precisely are the dependency problems?
I see nothing that would prevent Droidekas from being an added combat chassis. Nothing.
If I'm wrong, tell me/us why.........................................and give DETAIL.
how very anti-climatic and dissappointing.
nothing planned, just some random ideas, like someone else said, I guess its a start.
The satisfaction you seek will come in time. None of this is going to happen instantaneously, but I'll be around a lot working hard to help get it right
I hope you'll forgive me when I say (again)....I've heard this ALL before.
This is far from the first time that we've been talked to about changes, fixes and enhancements.
What's happened, so far?
Sintrosi's State Of The Profession tells the story.
what kind of time frame are we looking at for some of these changes
I really don't know. I have to understand the changes first.
Why?You said ityourself...you're not a crafter.
The only people that need to understand thechanges are:
1. Sintrosi
2. The DE Dev or "strike team"
3. The DEs themselves(who willexplain changes to...)
4.Our droid-purchasing customers It would behelpful, of course, if you understood the changes but it's hardly a "need" as far as I can tell.
If I'm wrong, please let me know why.
I have to understand the changes and what kind of impact they are going to have.
Why?
My goal is to find all the things you like and enjoy and need.
For now, the only thing we "need" is to have all items on Gorantoth's post to be fixed/addressed.
Beyond that, what we need is more focuseddiscussion on the future of:
1. Combat droids
2. Crafting droids
3. Medical droids
4. Misc. service droids
Then I will take that, do some investigation to find out what can happen and when. Then Ill work with the team to do as much as wecan, as fast aswe can.
Why aren't we finding out what can happen (and when) from either Sintrosi and/or our DE Dev?
Is that really so much to ask?
Don't get me wrong, I do want you as part of this discussion.
I guess what I'm saying is... How is this information-gathering exercise any different than any we DEs have seen in the past?
Will the Devs just end up doing whatever they feel like doing anyway or will we actually have them implement our suggestions and needs (even if they run counter to what the DE Dev would do)?
Note: On my last question, the important part is..."even if they run counter to what the DE Dev would do."
The medical droids had better be certed to Master Medic/Novice Doc/Novice CM then, because with this idea a player can simply replace the Player Medic with a Droid
Thats definately a concern. It changes the focus of both "when" and "where" players go to get healed and thats a key activity.
It doesn't have to...
Just make sure that use of Medical services installed in any droid require they be used by a 'certed' Medic/CM/Doctor. If a non-Medic player wants to use the new healing capabilities mentioned in "The Plan", they will still need a Medic to make the Stim/Wound packs that would be loaded into the droid.
Thus, interdependence is maintained. It's not that hard.
Hmmm, looks like there really was a LOT more thought put into the creature changes than droids.
No there wasn't. Creature Handlers were well under way (almost done actually) when I came on board. Droid Engineers was next and here we are...
So, you're saying that we have some VERY DETAILED information headed our way? If so, that will a first for our profession. Seriously
End Part 1 - Part 2, forthcoming...
/bow
Respectfully,
When it says only DE will be able to use these combat modules do you mean that only DE will be able to asemble these modules or that only DE will be able to use combat droids of any form?
Which would you prefer and why?
Well, I think it's obvious that only DEs would be able to craft/install the combat modules.
I think that DEs that use them would see maximum benefit (similar to how weapon certs work).
I think that a non-CE should be able to use the features but will see lower damage/speed stats or possible higher HAM costs on the droid for use of those features.
Another item related to this is the "DE Only" combat droids.
I am FOR these. There needs to be a reason for the combat-minded player, who is also a DE, to want to reach Master. Otherwise, you have the CH skill-tree 'exploit' (imbalance) all over again.
The most powerful combat droid available should operate at its maximum capacity (in terms of damage/speed/etc.) only when used by a Master DE.
Note: As an addendum to my last point, it might be additionally cool if the MDE-only combat droid were even better when used by the MDE that built it. If one MDE used the top-of-the-line combat droid/module that was made by a different MDE, he'd take a small 'hit' in terms of it effectiveness.
One small step for droid functionality, one giant leap for DE- Dev relations.
Droid functionality or Droid Engineer Functionality?
To me, "Droid functionality" is a direct relation to the functionality of Droid Engineer skills, mods and schematics. You are right to try to make this distinction but it could almost deserve its own topic thread.
Which is more entertaining?
What's entertaining is...
1) Making cool droids
2) Making useful droids
3) Adding to immersiveness by use of #1 and #2
4) Killing Jedi with rocket-propelled MSEs (okay...I can wait on this one.)
How do you see each side?
I see one side (Droid Engineer functionality) as the method to get to the other side (Droid functionality).
Is there another way to see it?
Only a DE will be able to craft them and insert them in droids is my guess.
Is that the way you want it?
Yes. Why would we want another profession to be able to craft droid parts and allow them to be inserted in droids?
This would kind of make the entire profession somewhat more useless.
Anything related to the design, crafting or building of droids needs to fall squarely into our profession.
Note: The exception here would be parts that would come from other professions to provide the (apparently) required player interdependence. (/sigh) This would be, for example, needing to get Composite Armor Segments from Armorsmiths for L5 and L6 Armor. When logical, other such dependent parts/services should be required.
Umm, please tell me more about this. Sounds like it is gonig to be stepping all over me and my fellow healers.
What are your conerns?
The concern, of course, is that medic/CMs/doctors will not be needed.
For this reason, I would state that healing features of droids need to be 'certed' to those with some level of Medic skill. The details on this are still to be determined but I think that droids with medical capabilities need to be operated by players with the proper 'skill' to do so. It only makes sense.
For the non-Medic players, I'd suggest that the new Medical droids (that could heal 'on their own') will not get rid of interdependence. Why?
There still have to be Medics to make the Stim/Wound packs that would be inserted into these 'charged' Medical droids. Voila! Medics have an additional way to make money...and droid users have an answer to the "Will it heal me by itself?" issue.
I also must admit to looking for a bit more specificity,
Like what?
In relation to the droid "plan"...
What damage/speed is being considered for the different kinds of combat modules?
What is the exact explanation/description of...
"Multiple combat modes"?
"Anti-droid reactions"?
"Anti-creature reactions"?
How many non-combat droids will be allowed for any players?
Will DEs get to have out more than one non-combat droid?
Will we able to call combat and non-combat droids in different places?
Man...the list goes on and on. Talking about specifics is pretty much useless at this point, until a FAR more detailed "plan" is announced.
help me out on this one. does this mean that only droid engineers will be able to command/use droids that have these modules isntalled, or will everyone
Only DE's would make them. Any Droid owner would gain the benefits of their Droids Abilities...
Except for DE-only combat droids, of course.
Oh...and...you forgot...
If you have a droid with a crafting station in it, you have to be using the correct crafting tool AND have a Novice skill needed to take advantage of the features.
A 'pure' Fencer, for example, would not be able to effectively use a droid's Structure crafting station.
why do you talk about 1 active pet per player as the maximum in the CH changes thread and here I read that you plan to have more than one active droid. Arent you guys talking with each other?
I dont know, but Ill find out
The distinction that needs to be hammered home here is combat vs. service droid.
Only 1 combat droid/pet/creature should be able to be called.
Note: It's my personal preference that Master CH's and Master DEs be set to two, however. But, that's just me.
I believe that more than one "service" droid (Medical, crafting, Power Harvester) droid should be able to be called. There are MANY good, valid and logical reasons for this (which do NOT destroy/reduce player interdependence).
There's always more of course, and while these changes sound good, they didn't make me go "YAY!" like I was hoping they would.
(i saw all the stuff from your post :smileywink
What WOULD make you go "yay"?
To see a 'red name', or Sintrosi, post a message stating (emphatically) that they have found/fixed every item on Gorantoth's thread and are ready to start expanding the profession.
Yeah....like THAT'LL happen.
Finally i can watch those stupid annoying mouse droids get what they deserve.
LOL
Itis funny to think about MSE 'bombs'. Ijust hope they can't be used to grief. If that is addressed (and I can install a "Thermonuclear Detonation Module" inMSEs), I'll be happy.
Like my dad always says "When the chips are down the buffalo's empty"......Why does he always say that?
I dont know, why?
And this is constructive, how?
I always preferred:
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't shave its legs."
Will droid power rates be looked at?
I dont know, how does it work and what's the problem?
The Power Droid is supposed to supply power/recharge capabilities to any nearby droids.
Right now, they don't really seem to function in this fashion (or at all).
The problem is....
They do not appear to work as intended (and never have, as far as I've been aware).
The related question, on a TON of DE and DE-customer minds, is...
"What's the deal with batteries?!?!"
Why DO batteries seem to last like 10-minutes?
I've used more batteries in the last few weeks than I have keystrokes for this post. It's sad.
Solve battery/power usage...
Clarify please: "ONLY Droid Engineers will be able to make and use these modules."
Will clarify...
I think that the "make" part is pretty self-evident. The modules in question are droid 'parts', so we make them. That's pretty easy.
It's the "use" part that's not clearly mapped out yet (and needs a LOT more clarification).
My only gripe is that we are so closely dependent on items from the Master Artisan box and there is no added benefit.
Thats a good point. I'll bring it up.
That one must have been posted by AudioOrgana. /wave
It's true that we are VERY tied to Master Artisan. I don't see this as a profession-breaker, since I use it as an opportunity. I don't have MA myself and simply contract out parts to MAs and lower-level DEs that have MA. It seems to work quite well for both parties.
I do know that no other crafting profession has such an extreme and severe interdependence to MA.
This needs to be looked at and/or considered.
For example, will the DE community be engaged to provide our suggestions via our Correspondent, or does SOE already have internal design meetings scheduled to tackle these issues?
Yes. Engage me and the Correspondent. We gather the info and I take inside so the team can know what you want; what you like, what you want and what is fun
Don't they know any of this already?!?!
And...if so, what have they specifically told you that they "know"?!?
The post you made here makes it sound as if we are 100% off their collective radar.
So...what's being said, other than "DE needs work"?
This sounds good too, I like these things a lot.
Having said that: I agree with some of the doctors that this shouldn't be allowed to overrun their profession.
What are your thoughts on counter-balancing that?
Certs for use.
If used by an non-Medic, the Stim/Wound packs still have to be purchased from a Medic. So, interdependence is maintained (in a different way).
It might also be designed such that a non-Medic user of a Med droid would face a penalty in terms of the actual effectiveness of the healing given by said droid. This makes having a medic around just to use the droid a very desirable thing.
Whew! Get all that?!?
But seriously...
If you want to tackle the DE issues, I commend you, TH. You have a tough crowd in front of you. Keep in mind that many of us are IT workers, programmers, etc. You will have a hard time passing stuff by us that would be no problem to put in front of other professions.
I hope that the Devs allow you to deal straight with us. Someone better start...or droids will be less and less of an issue for you to worry about (due to massive exodus from the profession).
I look forward to your thoughts and those of the 'strike team'.
They are in for a doosey of a mission...
/bow
Respectfully,
TheRealTK421, perhaps the functionality needed for a medical droid is pay-for-heal. I can't imagine any doctor objecting to that!
a. The doctor puts his woundpacks into the medical droid and sits with it in a hospital. He puts a price-per-charge on the various woundpacks and buffs.
b. The patient visits the robot and examines its contents, and sees the strength of the woundpack in question.
c. He pays the fee.
d. The medical 'droid fires the requested woundpack/buff/stim and gives the money to the doctor.
Boom. Secure trade for a healing service. Sure, the doc doesn't get XP for it, but he doesn't waste his time and woundpacks on a non-paying patient, either. It'd be completely voluntary, I'd stock the 'droid with my best woundpacks and I'd get paid to do it. I'd pay top credits for a 'droid that could do this. You could put a 'droid like this in your house and leave him there, fully stocked.
A medical droid will never completely replace a medic because it isn't durable enough, isn't smart enough, and can't heal itself, it can't burstrun out of combat, it won't charge into combat, and it can't anticipate the flow of a battle to know who to heal first. I'm not worried. Bring 'em on.
EnragedWookie wrote:
Im sure you guys have asked quite a few times in this long jumble of post, that Droid Engineers be able to make pets that are equal or better then pets. Simple awnser: This will not happen. They might turn out better then Cl10 Non-Ch pets, but they will never be better then CH pets. Why? Caue anybody can use a droid, no skillpoints required.
Wookie- Your worries are unwarranted and if you'd read a lot of the combat droid posts you'd know that. I think it's safe to say that the VAST (keyword: vast,I am guessing 95% )majority of serious DE's do NOT want droids equal to or better than CH pets. We do NOT want a flood of people to dabble or go into DE just to get the best pet. CH pets are just meant for killing (and mounts eventually), whereas droids can do so much more, and we know that it wouldn't be fair to CH to have "uber" droids. But a decent combat droid I think is fair, by decent I'm saying around CL 25 for the best combat droid.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Don't forget...with the new mob AI improvements that are being made this month, all mobs will occassionally go after their pets masters...this fixes the noob with droid problem because noob will not get an immortal tanks.
This happens already when grouped with pets. Basically they are making it so grouping doesn't matter.
I'm sure plenty of people took advantage of it at one point or another. Combined with the fact at the time pets stole loot from npcs while grouped so it wascertainly a more worthwhile option.
But knowing the pets health/status at all times is a lot more valuble to me right now. Since the pet looting was fixed.
Alrighty...this is why I didn't bother to post a long reply to TH's questions...because I had faith that TheRealTK421 would do it eventually. All I had to do was wait for it andthen.....
/agree
Darker-Naritus said it best on page one. His views on faction pets are also the best to date. Limiting people to one pet including faction pets is just silly. They're the only thing that make this place feel like starwars.
The only thing I would like to add is to fix the power consumption rate on droids. I don't know if it's a bug or what but it's just plain silly how quick they eat up their batteries.
Right now the idea of Combat Droids are in chaos, I understand the need to avoid introducing combat droids piece-meal without a good balanced system in place, it would create problems later on and it tends to be hard to remove somthing once it's in place and accepted by the community.
The system I propose would be adjustment friendly without causing major upheavals in the droid community. In addition it would provide an easily understandable system that droid engineers and their customers can rely on.
(1) Make Combat Modules seperate from other modules.
(2) You and the Droid Community decide which droid skins (chassis) can accept combat modules. Although other (non combat) modules can be placed in acombat droid chassis, it doesn't work in reverse. In this way you wont have C3PO battle bots or R2D2 terminators running around. Only the droids you want combat capable, will be.
(3) Each combat chassis is then assigned a range ofvalues. This value is the number of combat modules that can be fit inside. The level of the combat module issimply added. So a level 1 module counts as 1, a level 2 as 2 etc. all the way to6. A higher level more complex droid chassis would have a higher range of values. DO NOT GIVE THEM ABSOLUTE NUMBERS. A well made droid chassis using high end components would have a higher value within the range you set for that particular chassis. This would give the Droid Engineers more reason to experiment and work hard to create better droids. If the number is absolute then it takes away the whole spirit of crafting and striving for excellent workmanship.
(4) Introduce the following new modules (combat only) and give them levels 1 thru 6 as has been done before.
(a) Combat Droid Health Module
(b) Combat Droid Action Module
(c) Combat Droid Mind Module
(d) Combat Droid Armor Module
(e) Combat Droid Speed Module
(f) Combat Droid Armor Module
(g) Combat Droid Melee Attack Module
(h) Combat Droid Ranged Attack Module
(i) Combat Droid Self Destruct Module
(5) Now you simply set the range of values for each combat chassis, and put numbers on the above modules. You have to decide what the absolute high end could possibly be. A master droid engineer using the best materials possible and having the luckiest crafting day of his life could produce a level 6 ranged attack module that does x damage? Work the same figures for the high end of the rest of the modules, then work down to level 1. In this way you can keep a balance on thingsfrom getting out of hand.
***Now here is the beauty of this system. It is self limiting, no one will be able to have the best of everything. Each combat chassis has a finite number of combat modules that can be put inside. The higher the quality of the chassis the more that can be put inside but only to certain degree. Each chassis has a possible range of values that is determined by the quality of workmanship and the luck of the crafter. The higher the level the module the more slots it takes.
What this does do however is create amazing variability in droid choices. If someone wants a straight tank then they would strive to have made a droid with level 6 armor, and the highest level hams, but would probally have to go much lower on attack damage and speed. If someone needs a combat droid that dishes out alot of damage from range, then they would probally have to go lower on armor and hams.
What this system does is allows a Droid Engineer to truly custom make droids for people, and because the system is self limiting, it wont get out of hand and turn into a Mech Warrior game. It also gives Combat Droids a real role that is helpful, without being overpowering.
(6) Just imagine what this would do for not only the Droid Engineers, but for the entire SWG community in general. The system is utterly user friendly and would allow the developers to tweak a module here and there without revamping the entire droid community. If you ever needed to add a Droid Ability, just simply make a new module under the same system. This would be so easy to balance and add too.
I hope you give this some consideration.
Fastgun
2. Sounds good but where's the droid dekas & battle droids?
Roger roger
Daker-Naritus wrote:Besides that, noobs can't afford high power combat droids...all droid are relatively expensive, and thinking that a noobie who starts with one melon will be able to afford a combat droid better and more expensive than even the current 25k probots is nonsensical.
But that does not stop someone, anyone from buying said n00b a powerful droid. The current value of the credit makes such gifts almost painless for a significant part of the server population. I can garauntee you I would buy powerful combat droids for any and all new members of my guild who needed them.