Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Sodan's Hybrid DE Proposal
In Variant #1 of this proposal, combat droid lvls are found in the 0040 branch of DE. Max droid lvls are 25 to 35 (see below for details and droid lvls) and +4 Stored Combat Droids. Obtaining 0040 in DE gives you the max droid lvls you can obtain for controlling combat droids. All players start with +0 Combat Droids, which prevents them from using lvl 10+ combat droids. Under this variant, the lvl 4 box of Ranged Support (Marksman 0004) would include +1 Combat Droids mod, allowing a player to call one combat droid but only if they also have sufficient combat droid lvls via 0040 DE.
This avoids the problem of grandfathering, or having to change players. You don't have to take ranged support line in order to be a droid engineer, but you do have to take it if you want to control any CL10+ combat droids. Plus, it uses the already established system that CH uses with pet levels and additional pet skills.
Here's the original post:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=68963#M68963
Message Edited by Javac on 03-09-2004 09:32 AM
Daker-Naritus wrote:
I have talked with Woody, and have reluctantly decided that if this plan is the ONLY way we are going to get combat droids, that I would have to support it no matter how much I hated it.
After thinking about it,I see a major problem with this plan that I think makes it impossible to implement, so here is something for you to think about....
NOTE: I am trying to help you, not hurt you or be criticalhere. Over and over I keep hearing people say that they are voting for this plan because it is "easy to implement for the devs" and is the "only way we will get combat droids" This is a major hurdle you are going to have to overcome to make this a viable solution.
I would agree that we should not submit anything to the devs that is not easy to implement, because we will get shot down and end up getting nothing.
Here is the first major problem that you are going to hear from TH and Runesabre that you need to come up with an answer for:
There are already thousands of DEs acrocc the servers.
What this proposal proposes is to make DE a hybrid profession that has new prerequisites from marksman or other trees.
The problem: How do you convert the DE profession to the hybrid with new prerequisites when people already have the skill?
Do you take all DE skills away from everyone and make them reearn the skill? (Devs will never do this)
Do you grandfather every DE in and let them keep their skills forever? (Devs will never do this, because it gives you too much power--additional combat droids--for no additional skill point cost--existing DEsdon't have to learn the prerequisites)
Do you make it so that DEs can only keep their skills until they drop some, and the ones they drop can't be relearned until they learn the prerequisites? (This is a programming nightmare)
If we are supporting a plan that is "easy to implement" how does a plan that changes the prerequisites for a profession that thousands of players already have fit that bill?
When TH and Runesabre come back saying they can't implement this plan because there is no way to grandfather new DEs in, what do we say in reply?
Message Edited by Shian_Tavkin on 03-09-2004 09:00 AM
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Addendum, if 2 or 3 are possible answers, how do you deal with the additional problem of people purposefully learning DE (before the patch) so that they can be granfathered in and skip the extra skill point prerequisites?
Daker-Naritus wrote:
The problem: How do you convert the DE profession to the hybrid with new prerequisites when people already have the skill?
(1) Do you take all DE skills away from everyone and make them reearn the skill? (Devs will never do this)
(2) Do you grandfather every DE in and let them keep their skills forever? (Devs will never do this, because it gives you too much power--additional combat droids--for no additional skill point cost--existing DEsdon't have to learn the prerequisites)
(3) Do you make it so that DEs can only keep their skills until they drop some, and the ones they drop can't be relearned until they learn the prerequisites? (This is a programming nightmare)
Daker, please see above post
NONE of these 3 items listed are applicable...not one of them. There is no change to the DE crafting prerequisites...please see above.
Thankyou
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Addendum, if 2 or 3 are possible answers, how do you deal with the additional problem of people purposefully learning DE (before the patch) so that they can be granfathered in and skip the extra skill point prerequisites?
Daker-Naritus wrote:
The problem: How do you convert the DE profession to the hybrid with new prerequisites when people already have the skill?
(1) Do you take all DE skills away from everyone and make them reearn the skill? (Devs will never do this)
(2) Do you grandfather every DE in and let them keep their skills forever? (Devs will never do this, because it gives you too much power--additional combat droids--for no additional skill point cost--existing DEsdon't have to learn the prerequisites)
(3) Do you make it so that DEs can only keep their skills until they drop some, and the ones they drop can't be relearned until they learn the prerequisites? (This is a programming nightmare)
This proposal does NOT add new prerequisites to be a DE. Itgives +Combat Droid at Ranged Support 4, then the +Combat Droid Levels are in the 0040 tree of DE. When you attempt to pull a combat droid, it checks for the +Combat Droid, and then checks to see if you have enough +Droid Levels to control that droid.
Any existing DEs just go along their merry DE way, and take up Ranged Support if (and only if) they want to use the combat droids.
Daker, my respect for you grows. First, because you had the major cojones to deliver a plan of your own. And because you are willing to be practical and pragmatic upon more information. THANK YOU.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
I have talked with Woody, and have reluctantly decided that if this plan is the ONLY way we are going to get combat droids, that I would have to support it no matter how much I hated it.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
The problem: How do you convert the DE profession to the hybrid with new prerequisites when people already have the skill?
This is an easy one. There are NO new pre-reqs in the plan for becoming a droid engineer. All pre-reqs are for combat droid usage.
Under the plan, all players start with the ability to call one CL 10 droid; we'll call these droids CL 10 Security Droids, just for clarity. All players start with NO ABILITY to call Combat Droids (CL 10 and higher). The Ranged Support 4 box contains a skill or ability mod called +1 Combat Droid. Based on the combat support skills that a player has earned (ranged support tactics, etc.), this skill grants the ability to call ONE Combat Droid.
However, knowing how to use a droid in combat, is different than knowing how the droids operate. For this knowledge, the player must advance through the 0040 DE tree, picking up lvls gradually until they reach the fourth box and earn the title Droid Tactician. Cool title!
With 0040 DE and Ranged Support 4 a player can call ONE Combat Droid of lvl 25-35 (a variable number to be decided by the devs after the whole armor thing shakes out).
So in sum, there are NO new pre-reqs under this plan. The pre-reqs are for knowing how to control and operate (call and use) combat droids.
Arcid wrote:
While the New correspondant is being decided on I'm going to link tothe ideas for implementing Combat Droids from the In Development forum so we have a chance of TH responding to them and see what the possibilities are.
I'm not sure if having Mr. "Clear Domed R2" see this plan is in the best interest of DEs. We need an actual Dev to look at it, Runesabre or JustG.
Not trying to rip TH here, but he just doesn't "get" Droid Engineering.
Having all the Devs see the plans is the best course of action. Currently I have to say we are exploring the various methods of doing that, though posting the link certainly can't hurt.
And, dispite feelings against TH, it must be remembered that we do need him on our team for this to succeed. I know, it may sound like climbing amonumentalhill, but it is something to be remembered. During the proceedings, outward displays of attack against the Devs must be kept to civilised standards. Just a friendly prompt here not to turn this threadinto a flame-war against TH 
duncje wrote:
Arcid wrote:
While the New correspondant is being decided on I'm going to link tothe ideas for implementing Combat Droids from the In Development forum so we have a chance of TH responding to them and see what the possibilities are.
I'm not sure if having Mr. "Clear Domed R2" see this plan is in the best interest of DEs. We need an actual Dev to look at it, Runesabre or JustG.
Not trying to rip TH here, but he just doesn't "get" Droid Engineering.
Never was a truer word spoken.
If some DE's have struggled to understand this plan, I have severe doubts that Thunder will even begin to see it for what it is, a balanced, well thought out plan that addresses the 'checkers issue' completely. Thats not an anti-TH flame, it is stating the obvious truth that he does not understand DE, as he has frequently demonstrated. No blame there, just a fact. I don't suppose he knows Image Design well either.
It really is time for Runesabre / DE developer to talk this over and come back to us.
Message Edited by Shian_Tavkin on 03-09-2004 09:35 AM
Agreed. We need a dev love fest to make this happen. Besides, won't our opinions be revamped if they deliver on this plan, and we're hanging out in the cantina with a hot new droideka after spending the right skillpoints? *drool*
TheWoody wrote:
Having all the Devs see the plans is the best course of action. Currently I have to say we are exploring the various methods of doing that, though posting the link certainly can't hurt.
And, dispite feelings against TH, it must be remembered that we do need him on our team for this to succeed. I know, it may sound like climbing amonumentalhill, but it is something to be remembered. During the proceedings, outward displays of attack against the Devs must be kept to civilised standards. Just a friendly prompt here not to turn this threadinto a flame-war against TH
Working with us is what it's all about.
The best intentions in the world cannot compensate for fundememental lack of knowledge, as novice DE's find out every day in game. That is why they ask so many questions of us.
Ok this is to all of you that replied... I am in and out of the office today, so it may be a bit before I can post more...
I misunderstood what you guys were saying because you kept using the word "hybrid." Hybrid is a defined term in game and it means a FULL PROFESSION that takes more than one novice profession as a prerequisite (ex: Commando takes master marksman and novice brawler 4000; combat medic takes master medic and ranged support)
If Sodan were proposing a "hybrid profession" DE would require artisan AND ranged as prerequisites. What you guys are talking about is something brand new, where the ability to use an item in game takes 2 different professions to use.
Despite the language misunderstanding, thisareSTILL going to be a couple arguable implementationissues you need to be prepared for.
With the plan as I understand it now, that is a whole new can of worms, that I don't have time to go into now. I will have to post more later.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
What you guys are talking about is something brand new, where the ability to use an item in game takes 2 different professions to use.