Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Why decay is not my number 1 issue
Gron_DM wrote:
AO, your missing the point that many of us are stating here. Most people (non-DE's) will have a knee-jerk reaction to decay that wont be pleasent.
I didn't miss the point at all. I actually addressed it above. People will deal with it, just like they did when they implemented decay on death for armor/clothing/etc. We didn't like it at the time - I know I didn't - but we dealt with it because it was good for the game. People have knee-jerk reactions all the time - and I don't believe we should cloud our judgment by making that a reason not to pursue something our profession so desperately needs.
The developers have to play politician allot in the process of making balance decisions. In this case decay will be a unpopular idea from the masses. Sure many will accept and understand the need for it. As wpns, armor, food ect ect has decay or is consumed, but most people will not like this change. My point is that we should lobby for decay, NOW, but also in addition we should have functionality added as well to balance the fact that people are going to loss theyre prized droids theyve been using the better part of a year and a half. Im all for decay ASAP, but without new functionality to go with it we can expect people to overall dislike this notion and also the Devs are less likely to want it for that very reason. This is about selling it to the devs and the masses.
I'm not againstmore functionality in any way, shape, or form. I just disagree with the notion that we need to "hide" this change doing a bait and switch. It's a dishonest tactic I don't like the Dev team to use - even though at times they do quite liberally.
Lastly I do realize we have had 2 publishes I was here back when droids were repaired when they were stored and didnt have an armor rating...BUT thos publishes did less for us the for Chefs whom after they're publish had a myriad of combat, craft, and otherwise useful products that make them in much higher demand then DE. (not that im asking for a chef nerf) My point is in one pub they got what they needed to be a viable, profitable, well rounded in demand craft profession. As it stands now a DE's products are in much lower demand then Artisan/WS/AS/Chef/Archys/SW products....not to mention we make less creds then them.
Have you talked to an artisan, shipwright, or architect lately? I don't think we are any worse off than they are. We will never be a WS/AS. If you want more credits, you want decay. If you simply want to make more droids, you want decay.It's as simple as 1+1.
The point is, we have a huge installed customer base that never ever has to return to us again in most cases. Yes, I understand some people will initially dislike the idea, but that's not a reason to continue to have a gimped resale rate as we do now.
I understand all too well how customers think about droids. If you will note, I made two seperate "top issues" lists, one for our priorities as DE's, one for priorities in our customers eyes.
My opinion remains : as DE's our #1 priority should be decay. Adding new functionality is all well and good, but without decay we will have a boon for a month or so and then return to previous levels. We saw it withboth thedroid publishes and JTL.
Players rely on droids much more than you think. They use them for storage, they use them for hunting, they use them for gathering, they use them for healing, they use them for crafting. People maywhine to high hell, but they will replace their droids because they do need them - especially the crafting/medical droids; these droids free them from their houses and med centers and that freedom is valuable.
As DE's our vision can be skewed because we don't see these customers return. I know of at least a dozen people who have craftingand medical droids I made a year and a half ago that still use them daily. I'm sure there are many more.
Once we have a basic,self-renewing market, we will be in the position to accept any new functionality.It's unfortunate that people are losing sight of this, because we should be in here right now talking about ways to implement decay, not bickering over how people are going to react tothe basic concept.
Aself-renewing market, or one that experiences a quick boon then stagnates until the Devsdecide to add new modules (whichisn't likely to be very often). It's a no brainer to me.
It's so sad that fellow DE's devalue our profession so, thinking our products don't matter enough to warrant replacement. Our droids are necessary to many players. To every player? Hardly. But enough that a few spoiled brats who get their undies in a wad over having to replace a droid every few months or so wouldn't matter.
Unfoturnately, if we don't present a united front, it isn't likely we will get anything at all. No one reacts well to the news that the product they had that used to last forever no longer will last that long, but enough people need droids (no matter what a few self-depriciating DE's may think) that we'd be better off in both the short and long term. Then our professions product circlewould be "complete", and we will be in a much better place to handle new additions and reworkings of other aspects of the profession instead of building on to a house with a foundation that was never completed.
Until decay happens, we are just flailing about hoping people change professions or accidentally delete their droids - because those are the only customers that really ever return.
AO
/bow
Gron_DM wrote:
Most people (non-DE's) will have a knee-jerk reaction to decay that wont be pleasent.
But they'll likely get over it pretty fast, given the ease of obtaining credits and the fact that droids very often are useful now.
The developers have to play politician allot in the process of making balance decisions. In this case decay will be a unpopular idea from the masses.
Mmm...and now we have anti-decay kits as veteran awards. I don't think the unpopularity from the masses should stop a change that's needed for the health of the profession. It's clear that we're never going to be able to price our products sufficiently to ever be a "rich" profession. There's too many other factors economically that we fall slave to...
Plus...would people consider it uncool that they might have to replace a droid that they last purchased when they bought their first one....1 yr. + ago? I think if we tell that story, some people will start to understand our issue here.
Sure many will accept and understand the need for it. As wpns, armor, food ect ect has decay or is consumed, but most people will not like this change. My point is that we should lobby for decay, NOW, but also in addition we should have functionality added as well to balance the fact that people are going to loss theyre prized droids theyve been using the better part of a year and a half.
We've already seen that with longer battery times.
Im all for decay ASAP, but without new functionality to go with it we can expect people to overall dislike this notion and also the Devs are less likely to want it for that very reason. This is about selling it to the devs and the masses.
Okay...but will the (now) droid-using masses really stop using their droids just because of decay? Because I know any number of people that will just /shrug and go buy several of what they want (crated) and be done with it. I know I might.Now that people really understand more, I think, about how droids can/are helping them (if used wisely)...I think it could easily be accepted.
Given light of all the positive changes hitting TC lately, now is the perfect time to start down this road.
Lastly I do realize we have had 2 publishes I was here back when droids were repaired when they were stored and didnt have an armor rating...BUT thos publishes did less for us the for Chefs whom after they're publish had a myriad of combat, craft, and otherwise useful products that make them in much higher demand then DE.
I think we broadened our markets, surely. What's missing is the decay element to it all. Chefs get that...we don't.A droid's featuresthat can 'help' a player is only different (in point ofview) from a Chef item that can 'help' aplayer. They both just need to wear out. /shrug
(not that im asking for a chef nerf) My point is in one pub they got what they needed to be a viable, profitable, well rounded in demand craft profession. As it stands now a DE's products are in much lower demand then Artisan/WS/AS/Chef/Archys/SW products....not to mention we make less creds then them.
We can't control the credits we get without decay. There are too many other market factors wholly out of an MDE's control to get there. Even if all the MDEs on a server actually were to get working price 'windows' in place, this would still be so.
I'd never say..."please, no...don't make us more useful." However, I just don't think it's an out-and-out requirement to having a decay system in place that will help MDEs. Would it be nice? Sure.
So...if it comes, it's just icing on the cake.
Respectfully,
Jenden wrote:
hehe, I remember it pretty well. That was a bad form of decay I think (too fast, droid would only last people one trip). Space it out so a droid lasts for a month or so and I don't think many people will complain.
A month???!!!! I don't want my droids to last just 4 weeks and then have to be replaced. I would have to be constantly transferring items from their storage and datapads to my own, then to new droids!! I use ALL my droids for crafting, not combat, so they should last forever! I dont' subject them to any kind of danger so why should they decay?
I dont mind having to replace MODULES in a droid (as an added bonus, that would enable us to "upgrade" or modify already built droids as well!
but I absolutely do not want to have my droids, the ones I make for myself, go "poof" every 4 weeks. I'm pretty sure the movie droids lasted a bit longer, and ANYONE should be able to repair and maintain their droids (like speeders) without the threat of actually LOSING them.
I can't even bear to think about my poor J-9 or SQUEEKER having to be trashed.
What fun is that? I'm in this game to make droids, not credits. And the profession would go from enjoyable to HIGHLY monotonous (sp?) when I get the exact SAME orders to fill every 4 weeks to replace the SAME droids I had to replace last month...and the month before that....and the month before that.... etc..etc..
Adding more profession-specific functionality to droids ALWAYS increases droid sales, and brings in new customers looking to try the latest droid features. Thats a good thing. As a crafter in the game, there is after all nothing really to spend credits on (except factories & resources) so this aching desire for "turnaround" doesnt compute.
I don't want to lose the droids I work so hard to make. (so much for pride in our profession. selling out our very own creations for shiny credits)
YodaMac wrote:Jenden wrote:
hehe, I remember it pretty well. That was a bad form of decay I think (too fast, droid would only last people one trip). Space it out so a droid lasts for a month or so and I don't think many people will complain.A month???!!!! I don't want my droids to last just 4 weeks and then have to be replaced. I would have to be constantly transferring items from their storage and datapads to my own, then to new droids!! I use ALL my droids for crafting, not combat, so they should last forever! I dont' subject them to any kind of danger so why should they decay?
I dont mind having to replace MODULES in a droid (as an added bonus, that would enable us to "upgrade" or modify already built droids as well!
I can't even bear to think about my poor J-9 or SQUEEKER having to be trashed.
Adding more profession-specific functionality to droids ALWAYS increases droid sales, and brings in new customers looking to try the latest droid features. Thats a good thing. As a crafter in the game, there is after all nothing really to spend credits on (except factories & resources) so this aching desire for "turnaround" doesnt compute.
I don't want to lose the droids I work so hard to make. (so much for pride in our profession. selling out our very own creations for shiny credits)
Yea, I know there are a number of people who feel the same way. I think a good compromise would be to make a "repair kit" that restores a disabled droid. The kit would end up costing as much as a new droid, but it saves you from having to transfer items over, as well as allows people that have grown attached to their droid keep them. Make it so it takes a master DE to use, and you'll still get most of the people that just want a working droid getting new droids off of vendors.
YodaMac wrote:
Jenden wrote:
hehe, I remember it pretty well. That was a bad form of decay I think (too fast, droid would only last people one trip). Space it out so a droid lasts for a month or so and I don't think many people will complain.
A month???!!!! I don't want my droids to last just 4 weeks and then have to be replaced. I would have to be constantly transferring items from their storage and datapads to my own, then to new droids!! I use ALL my droids for crafting, not combat, so they should last forever! I dont' subject them to any kind of danger so why should they decay?
I dont mind having to replace MODULES in a droid (as an added bonus, that would enable us to "upgrade" or modify already built droids as well!
I can't even bear to think about my poor J-9 or SQUEEKER having to be trashed.
Adding more profession-specific functionality to droids ALWAYS increases droid sales, and brings in new customers looking to try the latest droid features. Thats a good thing. As a crafter in the game, there is after all nothing really to spend credits on (except factories & resources) so this aching desire for "turnaround" doesnt compute.
I don't want to lose the droids I work so hard to make. (so much for pride in our profession. selling out our very own creations for shiny credits)
It would depend on the droid really. A droid that is used constantly, like for Combat, Medical, or Harvesting, under really heavy use could wear out in a month or more.
However, droids such as you talk about for crafting or storage, don't get pulled and used for hours every day. Those would last say maybe 3-4 months.
Tk/AO excellent points thanks for taking time to discus,
OverallI agree with both of your setiments and logic I'm just taking the most cautious lean on this issue. I want decay in some form pretty badly, been playing so long its really a thorn in my side knowing every driod i see only gets deleted cause of players quiting swg or manual delete for a better droid. I am more concerned on how this issue will get taken in by the devs and also I have a very real desire to se DE be a more desired component to SWG. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for both at the same time, I feel that it is in more ways an easier sale. I realize many won't like a bait and switch but it is a tactic that makes tough additions more bearable. If it comes down to a Decay OR new mods/better mods I will chose decay.
Not everyone feels that DE's have it so bad, I for one sell at a very fast rate, my droids move quick. So why do i seem to take such a dim view of the situation? Well up until a few weeks back I ran a guild with every kind of crafter(started the guild in August 03, they are still going strong today, Ulfhere and Ahna doing a great job ). I got to see there sales in action and work with them hands on to get a feel for they're professions( In addition to personally selling high end tools, craftstations and weapons). What I observerd was that DE's sell some of the least desired products in SWG. Sure i am selling droids hand over fist, but that is because there is so few DE's out there, maybe 10 active big sellers on Corb. This means that of the 100-1000 people needing a droid that those 10 get allot of business. My problem is thus, the 10000 or so active buyers of goods, the true active market of SWG is being missed by the DE products. We are still only a hobbie seller when compared to theother typesof crafted items in SWG(BE not-withstanding).It isnt thati'm ungreatful of the publishes we have had so far, or of the fact i sell quite a few droids(i can only imagine sales without the new mods 
). I am more mad that the droids in SWG are still not a more desired component of play. 
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Okay...but will the (now) droid-using masses really stop using their droids just because of decay? Because I know any number of people that will just /shrug and go buy several of what they want (crated) and be done with it. I know I might.Now that people really understand more, I think, about how droids can/are helping them (if used wisely)...I think it could easily be accepted.
I think we broadened our markets, surely. What's missing is the decay element to it all. Chefs get that...we don't.A droid's featuresthat can 'help' a player is only different (in point ofview) from a Chef item that can 'help' aplayer. They both just need to wear out. /shrug
)
Gron_DM wrote:
Not everyone feels that DE's have it so bad, I for one sell at a very fast rate, my droids move quick. So why do i seem to take such a dim view of the situation? Well up until a few weeks back I ran a guild with every kind of crafter(started the guild in August 03, they are still going strong today, Ulfhere and Ahna doing a great job
See, I think you have to step back and look at the big picture.
Imagine all the droids you ever sold (All of 'em!). The majority of those droids - that belong to players who stillremain in SWG -are likely to still be in use.
A doctor uses their med droids constantly. You can't even find a doc in the Med Center of CNet these days.
Most players have some form of storage droid.
I don't know a single crafter past the novice elite stage that doesn't have a crafting droid.
Harvesting droids are indispensible to people who seriously sell organics - I charge a LOT for my harvest droids and players happily pay it because they know they can make that back in a single buff session from the extra harvest for things like avian meat.
These droids serve essential functions for many players. They use them all the time. But as I tried to say above, as DE's our views are skewed - we assume they aren't desired because we don't get as many sales as other professions. It's because after the sale, we see no evidence of the use.
I said something similar in a PM to TK as you said here - I get tons of sales, and decay or not I find a way to make a bunch of money consistently with droids. But them I come to these forums, and DE's are constantly complaining that we don't get the sales, nobody wants our stuff, etc. I just wish people understood that this is because we have no decay - every other profession that is considered "successful" (WS, AS, Chef) have inherent decay. In addition, WS and AS have very high "destroy" sales - people buy 1/2 dozen weapons that cost upwards of 250cpu or more and only keep the one that has the "best slice" - the rest are destroyed or sold to noobs.
Decay is the answer to all of this. People do use our products every single day - they really do! They just have no reason to ever buy another one unless they switch professions or accidentally click "destroy". Just this one thing, without any add-ons, would truly revolutionize our profession. I really feel like DE's under-value themselves way too much - people do need us, they just don't need us more than a few times in their gaming lifetime.
YodaMac, I'm sure TK will respond since your reply was directed to him, but I wanted to speak to the issue you brought up for a moment. The romantic notions of Droid Enginnering are something we all feel to some extent, but I feel your posting really lacks the fact that droids, in terms of this MMO enviornment, are no more complex to make than anything else. They don't require very many resources, and although noobs who grind up to Master DE before looking at our parts list may be overwhelmed, it's really not any more difficult than any other profession (beyond the fact we require so many MA parts).
In terms of MMO mechanics, cost to make and function need to be balanced. In essence, outside of role playing, our droids don't "deserve"tolast forever. It's not balanced and it puts our professionin the same rut hoping for a new gimmick to be released so we can ride the wave until it crashes again. And some type of starship/speeder repair system would defeat the whole purpose - that's a money sink out of the game (which isn't a bad idea on it's own) but doesn't lead to more droids sold, which is the goal of decay.
The point I'm trying to make is, we need to balance our role as a crafter in an MMO with this desire to live the life of tinkerers and theattachmentwe project upon our creations. In essence, leaving things the way they are -with droids lasting forever -may sound good in the romantic notion of droids, but as a crafting profession it's suicide. Let's face it - every single R2 you make with a certain configuration is identical (as long as you use the same quality materials where appropriate).
Once they are activated from deed form, they don't even have a serial number or creators name at that point. You can name them the same, you can paint them the same, that's it -there is absoultely no way to tell them apart. That's what makes it a "romantic notion" - except for thesixty seconds it would take to activate, color, and rename the droid the user experience remains exactly the same.Why can't people who this matters to - roleplayers-find a way to somehow justify the switch overin RP? It's just a few clicks and everything is exactly as it was.
Is that sixty seconds of disbelief suspensionby the end user every few months or so worth keeping our profession doomed to one-time sales?
AO
EDIT: To aid those players, perhaps we could provide a "coversion kit"? Take the customization (i.e. name and color) from your current droid and the system eats up the new droid deed (so we get the benefit we seek) and they droid already in your datapad never appears to change?
Message Edited by AudioOrgana on 02-07-2005 04:33 AM
Message Edited by Sylow on 02-07-2005 02:10 PM